F-35 Cancelled, then what ?
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We could build our own... Ohh but hang on, because we are buying this overpriced Spamcan we have all but destroyed the UK military industry and dispersed our design teams and skilled folks, so we are now left in the position we are in now.. Forced to buy American.
NutLoose,
Seeing as the UK still has the second largest Aerospace industry on the planet, that is a silly argument that you make.
BAE Systems design teams are the very folk designing the F-35, and have been since before the choice between the Boeing monstrosity and the F-35 was made, both in the US and the UK.
It's not a purely US affair, it is partly designed and built in the UK with a substantial BAES workshare in airframe and avionics, and a whole host of other UK companies also fully involved in the design, engineering and production of it.
Seeing as the UK still has the second largest Aerospace industry on the planet, that is a silly argument that you make.
BAE Systems design teams are the very folk designing the F-35, and have been since before the choice between the Boeing monstrosity and the F-35 was made, both in the US and the UK.
It's not a purely US affair, it is partly designed and built in the UK with a substantial BAES workshare in airframe and avionics, and a whole host of other UK companies also fully involved in the design, engineering and production of it.
Last edited by pr00ne; 9th Jul 2012 at 21:45.
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Seeing as the UK still has the second largest Aerospace industry on the planet, that is a silly argument that you make.
S-D
Direct quote from the organisation that replaced the SBAC. At Farnborough this week.
Happy to be shown it's true if you can give a reference though.
First line: "The aerospace industry of the United Kingdom is the second- or third-largest national aerospace industry in the world, depending upon the method of measurement."
We could build our own... Ohh but hang on, because we are buying this overpriced Spamcan we have all but destroyed the UK military industry and dispersed our design teams and skilled folks, so we are now left in the position we are in now.. Forced to buy American.
Last edited by muppetofthenorth; 9th Jul 2012 at 22:02.
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Direct quote from the organisation that replaced the SBAC. At Farnborough this week.
from Wiki:
Current manned aircraft in which the British aerospace industry has a major role include the AgustaWestland AW101, AgustaWestland AW159, Airbus A320 family, Airbus A330, Airbus A340, Airbus A380, Airbus A400M, BAE Hawk, Boeing 767, Boeing 777, Boeing 787,[8] Bombardier CRJ700, Bombardier CSeries, Bombardier Learjet 85, Britten-Norman Defender, Britten-Norman Islander, Eurofighter Typhoon, Hawker 800, Lockheed Martin C-130J Super Hercules and Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II. Current unmanned aerial vehicles in which the British aerospace industry has a major role include the BAE Taranis, Barnard Microsystems InView Unmanned Aircraft System, QinetiQ Zephyr and Watchkeeper WK450.
The aerospace industry undoubtedly employs lots of people in the UK. The chances of the UK building a competitive, indigenous, military or civil, fixed or rotary winged, aircraft anytime in the next 20 to 30 years are close to zero.
It pains me to say it, but I'd take the French aerospace industry over ours anytime.
S-D
So, you'd rather screw bits of Airbus airliners together that are made by other people rather than design and manufacture the really complex and sexy bits, like the wings, engines, fuel systems and the like. BAE were offered the S320 assembly line many years ago but turned it down as there was very little added value in merely assembling the things.
If you don't believe me about the SBAC quote, try this from their successor organisation;
The UK aerospace sector is a successful, vibrant, high value high technology engineering, manufacturing and service industry that generates good returns to all its stakeholders. With over £20 billion per annum in value added revenue and employing over 100,000 directly, and over 220,000 indirectly, the industry is one of the UK’s largest exporters adding around £2.8 billion annually to the UK balance of trade and involves around 2600 companies across all regions of the UK.
If you don't believe me about the SBAC quote, try this from their successor organisation;
The UK aerospace sector is a successful, vibrant, high value high technology engineering, manufacturing and service industry that generates good returns to all its stakeholders. With over £20 billion per annum in value added revenue and employing over 100,000 directly, and over 220,000 indirectly, the industry is one of the UK’s largest exporters adding around £2.8 billion annually to the UK balance of trade and involves around 2600 companies across all regions of the UK.
Suspicion breeds confidence
Well said. I agree 100% with Pr00ne. We have hung our hat on this and it will work. If its good enough for the USMC its good enough for us. Lets get behind it.
Last edited by Navaleye; 9th Jul 2012 at 22:45.
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"and it will work"
Probably will, eventually. But thats not the issue.
The key questions are
When will it work?
When it does work will it still be relevant?
When it does work can we afford it?
Probably will, eventually. But thats not the issue.
The key questions are
When will it work?
When it does work will it still be relevant?
When it does work can we afford it?
Suspicion breeds confidence
Milo,
All very good questions, but they could equally applied to every aviation project since WW2. Nothing runs to plan. This project has the might of the US Military behind it, unlike ours which were run on a shoestring. See below:
All very good questions, but they could equally applied to every aviation project since WW2. Nothing runs to plan. This project has the might of the US Military behind it, unlike ours which were run on a shoestring. See below:
Last edited by Navaleye; 9th Jul 2012 at 23:18.
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This is the only aviation project since WWII in which the entire future of British Military Aviation has been gambled - at an unaffordable cost - on a single project with no backup alternative.
If the F-35 project fails, then the UK will have voluntarily disarmed its air forces.
If the F-35 project fails, then the UK will have voluntarily disarmed its air forces.
Suspicion breeds confidence
Everything is a gamble, but you are where you are and things are never as good or as bad as they seem. Having spent a couple of weeks with the USMC in February, they seem pretty sure of pulling this off. Only time will tell. Best Rgds.
Last edited by Navaleye; 9th Jul 2012 at 23:48.
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and it will work
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Milo,
UK would have to pay to be different so it is not an option to build something that looks like an F-35 on the outside but is actually completely different underneath. The whole point of F-35 is economies of scale.
People talk about an indiginous aircraft - the last one of those we had was Sea Harrier. Jaguar, Tornado, Typhoon were/are all co-operative with other nations, just European rather than US. Helos are the same, with Merlin being half Italian. We cannot afford to be indiginous. Why are people so keen to buy F-18 or Rafale instead which have NO UK involvement. At least Gripen is partially BAES.
A lot of the test engineers and test pilots involved in F-35 flight test are Brits from BAES and QinetiQ, the UK is an integral part of this project from the roots up. Labeling it as a Spamcan is grossly inaccurate.
F-35 will not be cancelled, it's too big and too important to the US services. It is expensive and late, so was Tornado, Typhoon, MRA4 and A400M so I don't know why F-35 is singled out as the only offender. Would we be further ahead in flight test achievements if this was a UK project? I really doubt it.
Define "works"? Did Typhoon in Block 1 config "work" compared to what it was supposed to do? Even with updates could it self designate for A-G when it needed to in Libya? Modern acquisition (and I'm not saying this is right) involves incremental improvements to add capabability through life so is "works" the ultimate end state?
Bastardeaux - no-one has been killed flying an F-35 yet. Not saying it won't happen, accidents do, but it's a bit rich to start throwing that around just yet.
UK would have to pay to be different so it is not an option to build something that looks like an F-35 on the outside but is actually completely different underneath. The whole point of F-35 is economies of scale.
People talk about an indiginous aircraft - the last one of those we had was Sea Harrier. Jaguar, Tornado, Typhoon were/are all co-operative with other nations, just European rather than US. Helos are the same, with Merlin being half Italian. We cannot afford to be indiginous. Why are people so keen to buy F-18 or Rafale instead which have NO UK involvement. At least Gripen is partially BAES.
A lot of the test engineers and test pilots involved in F-35 flight test are Brits from BAES and QinetiQ, the UK is an integral part of this project from the roots up. Labeling it as a Spamcan is grossly inaccurate.
F-35 will not be cancelled, it's too big and too important to the US services. It is expensive and late, so was Tornado, Typhoon, MRA4 and A400M so I don't know why F-35 is singled out as the only offender. Would we be further ahead in flight test achievements if this was a UK project? I really doubt it.
Define "works"? Did Typhoon in Block 1 config "work" compared to what it was supposed to do? Even with updates could it self designate for A-G when it needed to in Libya? Modern acquisition (and I'm not saying this is right) involves incremental improvements to add capabability through life so is "works" the ultimate end state?
Bastardeaux - no-one has been killed flying an F-35 yet. Not saying it won't happen, accidents do, but it's a bit rich to start throwing that around just yet.
Last edited by WhiteOvies; 10th Jul 2012 at 13:06.
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I'm not suggesting we go it alone
What I was asking was whether - with the work already done - an F-35-lite could be put into production in the event of the USA shelving production because of cost overruns
If it has to be done, it won't just be the UK needing it.
What I was asking was whether - with the work already done - an F-35-lite could be put into production in the event of the USA shelving production because of cost overruns
If it has to be done, it won't just be the UK needing it.
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"F-35 will not be cancelled, it's too big and too important to the US services."
unfortunately it's the politicians who count - only the USAF really worry - the Army certainly wouldn't cry if it were cancelled and the USN are pretty luke warm anyway
unfortunately it's the politicians who count - only the USAF really worry - the Army certainly wouldn't cry if it were cancelled and the USN are pretty luke warm anyway
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Milo,
With the B off probation and already being delivered to the USMC this will not happen. Commandant Marine Corps is a huge supporter and the Marines punch above their weight in political lobbying.
Harry,
re: CNO's recent comments. Have you checked on CNOs background? Career submariner so not surprising he advocates advanced sub launched weapons delivery over carrier borne aircraft. The C variant was always due to be the last of the 3 variants to come into service, the classic C/D Hornet is running out of life and X-47 is well behind F-35 in flight test so the USN need it. They don't need it as quickly as we do though (due to Super Hornet), so that was part of the UK return to B decision
USMC and USAF have already started taking delivery of OCU jets at Eglin with more arriving on a regular basis. Building of facilities at several MCAS and AFB sites is well advanced. That's a lot of money and jobs to throw away. Economies of scale come into play, if one variant goes the others become too expensive and the whole thing falls flat. USN,USMC and USAF may not like being so tied together but that's the way it is.
With the B off probation and already being delivered to the USMC this will not happen. Commandant Marine Corps is a huge supporter and the Marines punch above their weight in political lobbying.
Harry,
re: CNO's recent comments. Have you checked on CNOs background? Career submariner so not surprising he advocates advanced sub launched weapons delivery over carrier borne aircraft. The C variant was always due to be the last of the 3 variants to come into service, the classic C/D Hornet is running out of life and X-47 is well behind F-35 in flight test so the USN need it. They don't need it as quickly as we do though (due to Super Hornet), so that was part of the UK return to B decision
USMC and USAF have already started taking delivery of OCU jets at Eglin with more arriving on a regular basis. Building of facilities at several MCAS and AFB sites is well advanced. That's a lot of money and jobs to throw away. Economies of scale come into play, if one variant goes the others become too expensive and the whole thing falls flat. USN,USMC and USAF may not like being so tied together but that's the way it is.
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"F-35 will not be cancelled, it's too big and too important to the US services."
And the Marines could make do by rebuilding their (and our) Harriers and stretching those out for another 10-15 years
Thats their plan B. Whats ours? Refit the few remaining Sea Harriers from the museums and ground schools?
And the Marines could make do by rebuilding their (and our) Harriers and stretching those out for another 10-15 years
Thats their plan B. Whats ours? Refit the few remaining Sea Harriers from the museums and ground schools?
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The Marines have been sensible and bought our Harriers as insurance, that is their Plan B. They had always planned to operate AV8B til at least 2015 with a staggered transfer of personnel from Harrier to F-35. With spares becoming more expensive and Rolls not building anymore new engines buying our jets at a rock bottom price was a godsend for them. At the same time they are running out of F-18 airframes and may need to transition some aircrew onto AV8B until F-35 is ready in enough numbers.
What is our Plan B? Good question, to which my only answer would be sit and wait and hope we don't need the capability... Well above my pay grade but with the reversion to a STOVL carrier there isn't any other STOVL jet in the game. Mabe QE becomes a 'deck for hire' for the USMC/Spanish/Italians? Embarrassing for the politicians to see other nations Harriers operating off QE but it would at least help build the FW experience for the ship's company until F-35 FOCFT.
What is our Plan B? Good question, to which my only answer would be sit and wait and hope we don't need the capability... Well above my pay grade but with the reversion to a STOVL carrier there isn't any other STOVL jet in the game. Mabe QE becomes a 'deck for hire' for the USMC/Spanish/Italians? Embarrassing for the politicians to see other nations Harriers operating off QE but it would at least help build the FW experience for the ship's company until F-35 FOCFT.
Last edited by WhiteOvies; 10th Jul 2012 at 14:03.