RAF Training Command Losses 1970s
Danny,
If I understand you correctly the stop-end barrier was down, and only raised when the Tower controller suspected an abort. My own recollection of Jet Provost operations at Linton and Manby (in the 1970s) was for the barrier to be up for both take-off and landing, and only lowered for aircraft unsuitable for barrier engagement. Perhaps there was a change in SOPs following this tragic accident?
When I read your figure of 4800ft for Runway 13/31 at Leeming, my initial reaction was that it compared favourably with 10/28 at Linton (4400ft), but an old copy of BINA actually gives 4200ft for the Leeming runway.
If I understand you correctly the stop-end barrier was down, and only raised when the Tower controller suspected an abort. My own recollection of Jet Provost operations at Linton and Manby (in the 1970s) was for the barrier to be up for both take-off and landing, and only lowered for aircraft unsuitable for barrier engagement. Perhaps there was a change in SOPs following this tragic accident?
When I read your figure of 4800ft for Runway 13/31 at Leeming, my initial reaction was that it compared favourably with 10/28 at Linton (4400ft), but an old copy of BINA actually gives 4200ft for the Leeming runway.
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I was a QFI on 2 Sqn 3FTS when the accident happened. My (vague?) memory suggests that the main runway was under repair at the time, which is why we operated off 30 for some time, including a period of night flying which I remember well for being able to teach approaches with no approach lights or VASIs on really dark nights.
Re the accident, I also seem to recall that at the time it was suggested that, having been converted to the JP4, getting airborne too early off a short runway in a full-tip JP3 for a navex resulted in a semi-stalled take-off and subsequent departure.
Re the accident, I also seem to recall that at the time it was suggested that, having been converted to the JP4, getting airborne too early off a short runway in a full-tip JP3 for a navex resulted in a semi-stalled take-off and subsequent departure.
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spekesoftly * and xtp,
You may well have me on the ropes here ! (I plead Senile Dementia and 45 years is a long time).
As for the barrier, my recollection is that they left it down (the Mk.IIIs being [I was told] no balls of fire) on take-offs; Local watched the landings and whipped it up when it looked necessary. (xtp- ?) - and exMudmover, MPN11 and HughGw01 might come in on this to settle the question.
Runway direction ? 30 or 31 ? - and the length ? (I've no Flip Card). Thinking hard, and having a look through Wiki, I reckon: the wartime field would have had the standard issue - 2000 (16/34), 1600 (04/22) and 1400 (12/30) yds. By the time we came on the scene, the 2000 had been stretched to 2500, I'm not sure we were still using the 1600, and 12/30 would be 1400 yds. So spekesoftly, your 4200 ft is right. The puzzle is the extension - how much longer was that ?
All I recall is that having to backtrack to the end for takeoff was a nuisance on a busy AFS, so they didn't do it - but started to do so after this affair.
All in all, this illustrates perfectly what I told Chugalug many moons ago - I am absolutely not to be regarded as an authority on anything . Danny
PS: (Note *) We Liverpudlians seem to get in everywhere !
You may well have me on the ropes here ! (I plead Senile Dementia and 45 years is a long time).
As for the barrier, my recollection is that they left it down (the Mk.IIIs being [I was told] no balls of fire) on take-offs; Local watched the landings and whipped it up when it looked necessary. (xtp- ?) - and exMudmover, MPN11 and HughGw01 might come in on this to settle the question.
Runway direction ? 30 or 31 ? - and the length ? (I've no Flip Card). Thinking hard, and having a look through Wiki, I reckon: the wartime field would have had the standard issue - 2000 (16/34), 1600 (04/22) and 1400 (12/30) yds. By the time we came on the scene, the 2000 had been stretched to 2500, I'm not sure we were still using the 1600, and 12/30 would be 1400 yds. So spekesoftly, your 4200 ft is right. The puzzle is the extension - how much longer was that ?
All I recall is that having to backtrack to the end for takeoff was a nuisance on a busy AFS, so they didn't do it - but started to do so after this affair.
All in all, this illustrates perfectly what I told Chugalug many moons ago - I am absolutely not to be regarded as an authority on anything . Danny
PS: (Note *) We Liverpudlians seem to get in everywhere !
Last edited by Danny42C; 5th Jan 2014 at 18:55. Reason: Add u/line.
Measuring it on Google Earth gives a length of 4200' including a 'starter extension' of around 600' extending south-eastwards from the old taxiway intersection as shown on a wartime photo in Action Stations 4.
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Chris Woolmer
I have obtained a letter from Ministry of Defence, they have sent me a synopsis of BoI. which reads:
The main cause of accident was found by Board of Inquiry to be aircrew error in that the pilot has the nose to high on take off. Contributory causes were found to be:
1. The possibility that fatigue may have affected the pilot's judgement.
2. The pilot was a rather underconfident nervous student and therefore anxiety induced reaction to some external stimulus cannot be ruled out.
3. New instructors not being adequately briefed at the outset on their duties and responsibilities and properly supervised thereafter.
4. Full length of Runway 30 was not being used at Leeming.
5. Widespread disregard or ignorance of the instructions regarding the continuity of students' instrument flying training.
Chris was a VERY confident person else why would the RAF taken him to train as a pilot, why had he lost confidence, probably due to poor training
instructors, which the report points out. Why put on a short runway.
I'm extremely angry with the RAF. Chris has probably lost 60 years of living, and boy did he like living. Fatigue, why wasn't he encouraged to have early nights instead of getting together drinking. The RAF should be ashamed and not take lightly the lives of beautiful young lads like Chris.
However, I have had some lovely E mails about Chris, all saying what a great guy he was, and he was and I'm sure would have made a great pilot.
I shall end now. This site has offered me peace of mind, thank you to all who have responded.
Have a good New Year.
With regards
June Mitchell.
PS Chris is on the top of panel 152 of Armed Forces Memorial in Staffordshire.
The main cause of accident was found by Board of Inquiry to be aircrew error in that the pilot has the nose to high on take off. Contributory causes were found to be:
1. The possibility that fatigue may have affected the pilot's judgement.
2. The pilot was a rather underconfident nervous student and therefore anxiety induced reaction to some external stimulus cannot be ruled out.
3. New instructors not being adequately briefed at the outset on their duties and responsibilities and properly supervised thereafter.
4. Full length of Runway 30 was not being used at Leeming.
5. Widespread disregard or ignorance of the instructions regarding the continuity of students' instrument flying training.
Chris was a VERY confident person else why would the RAF taken him to train as a pilot, why had he lost confidence, probably due to poor training
instructors, which the report points out. Why put on a short runway.
I'm extremely angry with the RAF. Chris has probably lost 60 years of living, and boy did he like living. Fatigue, why wasn't he encouraged to have early nights instead of getting together drinking. The RAF should be ashamed and not take lightly the lives of beautiful young lads like Chris.
However, I have had some lovely E mails about Chris, all saying what a great guy he was, and he was and I'm sure would have made a great pilot.
I shall end now. This site has offered me peace of mind, thank you to all who have responded.
Have a good New Year.
With regards
June Mitchell.
PS Chris is on the top of panel 152 of Armed Forces Memorial in Staffordshire.
Does anyone know the identity of the student pilot killed along with Elwyn David Bell in JP XW300 of No1FTS, Linton-on-Ouse? It was in a mid air collision with the Church Fenton Sea Prince WP312 on 02 March 1971 piloted by Cdr David Dunbar-Dempsey RN....a really fine man. I think the stude may have had the first name Bruce.
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Hoveratsix
Sea Prince pilot was Cdr David Dunbar-Dempsey. He was flying solo.
JP T5 was being flown by Flt Lt Elwyn Bell (QFI) and Plt Off Bruce Blackett. Flt Lt Bell was ex 110 Sqn
Speculation was that the Sea Prince pilot's ability to look out was compromised by the design of its cockpit and by not having a second pilot/nav to assist with looking outside particularly to the right.
I have no further details and the mid-air could just as easily have occurred in IMC which would make the lookout point above irrelevant. Either way, a very sad (and not so rare) occurrence. RIP to all.
MB
Sea Prince pilot was Cdr David Dunbar-Dempsey. He was flying solo.
JP T5 was being flown by Flt Lt Elwyn Bell (QFI) and Plt Off Bruce Blackett. Flt Lt Bell was ex 110 Sqn
Speculation was that the Sea Prince pilot's ability to look out was compromised by the design of its cockpit and by not having a second pilot/nav to assist with looking outside particularly to the right.
I have no further details and the mid-air could just as easily have occurred in IMC which would make the lookout point above irrelevant. Either way, a very sad (and not so rare) occurrence. RIP to all.
MB
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PO Bruce Blackett
Hoveratsix
Madbob
Was so glad to find this. Bruce was my closest mate. We'd known each other since the age of 7. We joined 6F (Romford) ATC together.
He was to be my best man (my 1st son's middle name is Bruce). His loss was quite a blow to me.
Apart from a recently found group photo (ATC) which includes him, the only other photo I have is of his RAF cap resting on his ensign-draped coffin at his cremation (newspaper photo). Do you know of any other photos of him - I'd really like to show my son the guy who's name he shares.
I've uploaded 3 relevant photos - but I don't use forums much so I Hope I've done this correctly.
Madbob
Was so glad to find this. Bruce was my closest mate. We'd known each other since the age of 7. We joined 6F (Romford) ATC together.
He was to be my best man (my 1st son's middle name is Bruce). His loss was quite a blow to me.
Apart from a recently found group photo (ATC) which includes him, the only other photo I have is of his RAF cap resting on his ensign-draped coffin at his cremation (newspaper photo). Do you know of any other photos of him - I'd really like to show my son the guy who's name he shares.
I've uploaded 3 relevant photos - but I don't use forums much so I Hope I've done this correctly.
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Bruce and I did our Flying Scholarships together at Carlisle in Sept 1968. We even did our cross country at the same time to Blackpool with the obligatory (against regulations) low circuit of Blackpool Tower.
We kept in touch until his accident.
We kept in touch until his accident.
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Stuart. Many thanks for coming back on this. I remember Bruce talking about the cross-country (can't remember if it was during that excursion that he had the electrics failure that he told me about....).
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Cross country
I don't remember an electrics failure but I do remember us taking off in Cessna 150s in to a 45 knot headwind. A very slow, lumbering climb out.
Good to hear from you.
Good to hear from you.
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Electrics
Yeah, I imagine a 45kt headwind would be a bit of a struggle in that....
I feel that I remember the electrics failure as occurring in the Provost (cross-country - from Linton I guess) - no radio, & red flares firing up at some point to say 'don't land'(....?) but he had no choice really & couldn't tell them. That's as I remember it (but it was over 45 years ago....).
I feel that I remember the electrics failure as occurring in the Provost (cross-country - from Linton I guess) - no radio, & red flares firing up at some point to say 'don't land'(....?) but he had no choice really & couldn't tell them. That's as I remember it (but it was over 45 years ago....).
