Royal Navy Maintenance Test Pilots... Do we need them in this day and age?

[Irish Tempest]

Originally formed to ensure consistency of cable rigging lengths for the Stringbags in days of yore. RAF and AAC don't have them. Why should the RN?

Petrol poured...

IT

[HEDP]

Fraid to say that the Army does have MTP's! Any more accurate fishing to be had.............

[Irish Tempest]

Aha, but these do not operate in the same way as RN MTP's which are Engineer Officers. AAC MTPs are specialist pilots with Eng experience vs RN Engineer Officers who then get trained to fly. Big difference albeit same TLA.

Rod out again!

[Two's in]

Army used to have REME MTPs, which were like RN Engineering Officers but much brighter and more handsome, but is this still the case now, especially with Apache?

[chinook240]

RAF has an MTP at Fleetlands and had, until recently a UTP at Benson.

A more appropriate question is why are they front-line pilots and not contractors, given the shortage of current and qualified aircrew???????????

[whowhenwhy]

Chinook you're missing the point. The RN have aircraft engineers who then go onto achieve QSP status in order that they can act as a MTP. The question is why bother going to the additional expense when you have QSPs who can just be given a bit of trg such that they can act as MTP.

[spheroid]

Aha, but these do not operate in the same way as RN MTP's which are Engineer Officers

No they are not. There are 2 MTP's at Yeovilton and neither are Engineers. Lets face it....we could probably do away with MTPs...but who in their right mind wants to spend the day conducting Vibro's and Max Con PTF's ?....in view of that, lets keep the MTPs and they can do all the $hitty flying

[mtp_rich]

I'm sure that many people could argue away the necessity to have AEOs trained as Pilots for the specfic functions that MTPs fulfill - aircraft QA and standardisation across fleets, Flight Testing SMEs, and on occasion a bit of airborne fault diagnosis. Of course experienced pilots without engineering background could do this, and as spheroid mentioned, they actually are at the moment due to a lack of AE-sourced MTPs who are at the right point in their careers. I'm not going to rise to the bait and beat my drum about engineering degrees blah blah blah - but maybe someone who has that kind of mindset and who has more of an insight into engineering/procurement/support issues IS more suited to the role? Another big benefit that isn't often mentioned is the combined aircrew/engineer experience that gets put back into the FAA in the jobs that MTPs move on to after their MTP tour(s). I'm sure plenty of pilots have wished the AEO could see things their way? Also many of the SO1 and upwards AE jobs in procurement, policy and support to ops benefit from having someone with a foot in both the aircrew and AE camps. Anyway, stop arguing my career from beneath my feet!

[alfred_the_great]

Well, why not have them? They cost no more, or no less than any other pilot, and they have the same career entry point as a GL WAFU. The fact they go on to do AE related jobs instead of PWO related jobs is the only real difference between the two TBH. Or did you not study hard enough at school and couldn't cut it intellectually as an Engineer?

[Chugalug2]

Whether they be RN, RAF or AAC, whether they be MTPs or UTPs, let us hope that for the sake of avoiding future avoidable accidents their experiences are listened to with more respect and attention than was accorded the Odiham TP by the Mull BoI, which settled on not calling on him to give evidence at all. A pity, as he could have confirmed that the type was unairworthy, a finding that the RAF has yet to arrive at, as opposed to finding the pilots Grossly Negligent with almost as much unseemly haste as it showed in rushing the type into service in the first place, over the protests of other TP's. I think they lived at Boscombe Down!

[101BOY]

When I left Benson the UTP only flew the Puma. The more senior Merlin pilots were the Air Test Captains. I don't believe anything changed, but stand to be corrected! This does allow flexibility of available crews for airtesting both at base, downroute and on ops.

[Dundiggin']

UTP/UTC at Benson....

We had a very nice and happy time; no night flying, no weekends, no detachments just two-crew airtests whenever required plus delivery flights to NI when required. Then 'fookin' AaaaJaaay' came along and made a complete c@ck of it by being selfish, opinionated and a thorough PITA! So the UTP/UTC posts were dis-established!! Thanks AJ you b~stard!!
I would suggest that air test crews need to know what they are about; it is naive to think that any gash hand can do them safely, thoroughly and to a standard. Experience is what is required. A dedicated FTRS crew was ideally suited and it suited them but when it was expunged from the establishment and the UTP/UTC had to return to the day to day 'nausea' on the Sqn the whole issue lost its' appeal.......... and I left.

[EX MTP]

EX MTP

the navy has this system for maintaining performance standards of aircraft. and it has worked very well for years. whether a non AEO MTP is as effective as an AEO MTP depends entirely on the individual and his standards

[tucumseh]

Used to work with an MTP in MoD(PE), after he finished flying. Bloody good at his job (engineering programme manager) and, as has been said, brought a much needed perspective. He was then posted to FONAC/FONA to a job he was probably well suited for, determining what the FAA would look like after the forthcoming cutbacks. Unfortunately, by then (about 1995) the decisions had already been made to slash the Support Helicopter and AEW fleets and ditch SHAR and he didn't have much left to work with.

[Union Jack]

Met several RN MTPs over the years. Always amuses me to hear them describe themselves to a non Navy audience more often or not as a pilot rather than an engineer. Several continue to describe themselves as such years after they have returned to ground tours in engineering posts. - CK

I wonder if CK ever met met Commander Alan Tarver GM over the years, and whether he would describe him as a pilot rather than an engineer, having read the first entry at The George Medal | General Chat | Discussions | Community | The Caravan Club

Jack

[Wander00]

Nearest I ever got to "maintenance" or any test flying was doing "trim checks" on the Canberra. Involved flying to ISTR 450kts at relatively low level. If aircraft was trimmable at that speed all was OK. If not you had to leave the trim where it was and fly back holding the out of trim force which was considerable and land like that. Ground crew filed a bit off the strip at the back of the trim tab and you went and did it again - good way for the JP to get hours, more likely minutes, but a change from bumbling around at 250kts

[switch_on_lofty]

A lot of really obvious trolling on this thread for some reason but here's some background on RN maintenance test flying from a general aircrew perspective for interest:

Post maintenance / fault diagnosis ground and airborne checks are listed in a book, let's call it a 5M. Groundcrew can do some of these checks, engines or rotors runnning. Aircrew learn how to do this (in some forces on OCU) and therefore most if not all RN aircrew (in relevant area) can complete the entire 5M which would equate to a full test of the aircraft and it's systems. I.e. a properly constituted crew can carry out the full test. This is important when there is only 1 crew available where you are operating e.g off a ship. Normally you only test the bits that need testing therefore called a partial test flight (PTF).

Every year each aircraft needs a full check of the 5M to be carried out. The relevant MTP is the only person qualified to sign off a full Maintenance Test Flight. This is only one of their duties but one of the most visible.

[Mogwi]

Qualified as an RN pilot in 1967, was never an engineer but served as a SHAR MTP for some 10 years and was UTP at VL for several. Not sure what the argument is.

PS. Last SHAR trip was a PRL air test that ended with frozen pitch control (or lack of!). Booger! Gott sei dank für the nozzle lever. Still found myself straining to pull the nose up even though the stick wouldn't move; Hey-Ho! No-one died! Swing the lamp.

[Lonewolf_50]

The palm is awarded to EX MTP for this week's Thread Necromancy Award.

Well played, sir.

[4Greens]

Did time as an MTP although not an AEO. This was in the sixties in Malta on a training squadron and it was because the RN were short of Engineering qualified ones. Was most interesting.