Russian Overflights by RAF Crews during the "Cold War"
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This thread a bit old, but tripped over it in a another search.
I had quite a long chat with Harry Broardhurst a few years ago in the Algarve. He talked about his involvement in 'sniffing ops' with Canberras on the southern USSR boarders, before the US decided to 'takeover' and ran the U2 overflys. He said they all knew it was just a question of time before they would get caught. He also talked about the Heathrow crash, and his call from Curtis LeMay while he was recovering from ejecting at 80ft. M-B seats became the choice for F-104s.
A friend who flew fast jets gave me the other side of the coin about his rep in the force.
DW
I had quite a long chat with Harry Broardhurst a few years ago in the Algarve. He talked about his involvement in 'sniffing ops' with Canberras on the southern USSR boarders, before the US decided to 'takeover' and ran the U2 overflys. He said they all knew it was just a question of time before they would get caught. He also talked about the Heathrow crash, and his call from Curtis LeMay while he was recovering from ejecting at 80ft. M-B seats became the choice for F-104s.
A friend who flew fast jets gave me the other side of the coin about his rep in the force.
DW
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This is a very belated response to mike1964's post early on in this thread, in which he says: "I understand that Pembrokes (and perhaps other liaison types) flying into/out of Berlin during the Cold War were used for surreptitious reconnaissance" .
He is quite right. I was in the MOD in the late 1970s and early 1980s and saw many of the photos that were taken while flying along the corridor to and from Berlin. The photos would typically be annotated with a description of what was photographed eg. T-64 tank, ZSU-23-4 or MiG-21, although they were often of more mundane objects. I remember a series of fairly good quality "snaps" taken of a nudist camp, showing mixed groups playing volleyball. The photos were annotated simply as SSNB which we later learned meant Soft Skinned Naked Bodies.
He is quite right. I was in the MOD in the late 1970s and early 1980s and saw many of the photos that were taken while flying along the corridor to and from Berlin. The photos would typically be annotated with a description of what was photographed eg. T-64 tank, ZSU-23-4 or MiG-21, although they were often of more mundane objects. I remember a series of fairly good quality "snaps" taken of a nudist camp, showing mixed groups playing volleyball. The photos were annotated simply as SSNB which we later learned meant Soft Skinned Naked Bodies.
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My attempt to resurrect Russian civil airliners spying on Nato
There was an earlier request to ask for input on eastern bloc airlines covertly photographing NATO assets.
The Cessna on a Sunday morning made me smile.
I am interested because in the early 80's (16 year old) I heard rumours of the Tu-104 up to Tu 134 being used to photograph targets through the glazed nose. (obviously 104 being way back)
I am also aware of Brixmas (I might have met one of the participants, elder brother of a friend) so I wonder "Were the Eastern Bloc at this too?"
The Cessna on a Sunday morning made me smile.
I am interested because in the early 80's (16 year old) I heard rumours of the Tu-104 up to Tu 134 being used to photograph targets through the glazed nose. (obviously 104 being way back)
I am also aware of Brixmas (I might have met one of the participants, elder brother of a friend) so I wonder "Were the Eastern Bloc at this too?"
Last edited by carlrsymington; 17th Jun 2015 at 22:58. Reason: typo
Originally Posted by carlrsymington
I am also aware of Brixmas (I might have met one of the participants, elder brother of a friend) so I wonder "Were the Eastern Bloc at this too?"
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Might be worth dropping in a comment here made by an oldie - well much older than me, made over lunch a couple of months back. No names or pack drill, but I understand he was in a position that offers some credibility to what he had to say.
He said much of the drama that ensued between the Soviets and the US during the '50's and '60's was just posturing. Whereas the Soviets had a very real separate agenda which was to take out the UK. By doing so it would have been relatively easy for them to extend the borders of the USSR all the way through Western Europe, to Lisbon through to Bordeaux. One suspects that with the UK and BAOR out of commission, there would have been little resistance from Germany, France, Italy, etc. They wouldn't have stood a chance against a Soviet blitzkreig.
Might be worthy of a separate topic "The USSR from Vladivostok to Lisbon" possibly including the Scandinavian countries, plus Greece, Switzerland, etc. etc. Without a doubt that would have been a worthwhile venture for those in the Kremlin calling the shots. Would the US have been prepared to get involved - I suspect not.
He said much of the drama that ensued between the Soviets and the US during the '50's and '60's was just posturing. Whereas the Soviets had a very real separate agenda which was to take out the UK. By doing so it would have been relatively easy for them to extend the borders of the USSR all the way through Western Europe, to Lisbon through to Bordeaux. One suspects that with the UK and BAOR out of commission, there would have been little resistance from Germany, France, Italy, etc. They wouldn't have stood a chance against a Soviet blitzkreig.
Might be worthy of a separate topic "The USSR from Vladivostok to Lisbon" possibly including the Scandinavian countries, plus Greece, Switzerland, etc. etc. Without a doubt that would have been a worthwhile venture for those in the Kremlin calling the shots. Would the US have been prepared to get involved - I suspect not.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
alison, the US Joint Chiefs drafted a set of war plan scenarios in 1949 in expectation for war in 1957. One premise was a US first strike with B29s in cells with, IIRC, 2 weapons carriers and 7 escorts and decoys.
Having successfully attacked Russia they then examined the potential consequences. These included immediate capitulation and the need to occupy the USSR with own forces that were not fully mobilised. US forces would therefore have to consider commanding surviving defeated Soviet forces to garrison and recover post-strike.
Awesome stuff but no doubts that they would have attacked or countered Soviet attacks. If you want to read the plans look for Plan Dropshot.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Dropshot
Having successfully attacked Russia they then examined the potential consequences. These included immediate capitulation and the need to occupy the USSR with own forces that were not fully mobilised. US forces would therefore have to consider commanding surviving defeated Soviet forces to garrison and recover post-strike.
Awesome stuff but no doubts that they would have attacked or countered Soviet attacks. If you want to read the plans look for Plan Dropshot.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Dropshot
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I suspect the US Joint Chiefs didn't foresee their involvement in Vietnam. If the Soviets had picked their time and nuked London and say Manchester, and launched a blitzkreig through West Germany whilst the US was distracted with a proxy war against China, would the US really have been prepared to take on the Soviets as well? I think not.
Sometimes I get the impression that little credence is given to the part the UK armed forces played in the Cold War, particularly the air force. I very much doubt that the Soviets ever had any real intention of taking on the US - very little to gain, but the UK was a big fly in their ointment for total European wide domination.
Sometimes I get the impression that little credence is given to the part the UK armed forces played in the Cold War, particularly the air force. I very much doubt that the Soviets ever had any real intention of taking on the US - very little to gain, but the UK was a big fly in their ointment for total European wide domination.
Gentleman Aviator
nuked London and say Manchester,
London yes, not so sure about Manc.
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Imagination or not?
Back to the military use of civilian aircraft for nefarious activities.
I seem to remember hearing stories of soviet bloc airliners being a threat to NATO. The threat was that the USSR could have loaded commando \ Ranger forces onto civilian airliners and simultaneously stormed the likes of LHR, CDG, FRA etc while Spetznaz troops assaulted key airbases (other targets were available
) either via helicopter, AN-24 etc , fake civilian protesters or parachute etc.
The main airports would have provided staging points for mechanized equipment, troops & helicopters etc.
I always watched Balkan IL-18, Tu-154 & Aviogenex Tu 134 disembarking at BFS with trepidation. The hordes were scary!!! Sunburnt, hungover & back in Belfast in the pouring July rain. Ivan would not have stood a chance!
I seem to remember hearing stories of soviet bloc airliners being a threat to NATO. The threat was that the USSR could have loaded commando \ Ranger forces onto civilian airliners and simultaneously stormed the likes of LHR, CDG, FRA etc while Spetznaz troops assaulted key airbases (other targets were available
) either via helicopter, AN-24 etc , fake civilian protesters or parachute etc.The main airports would have provided staging points for mechanized equipment, troops & helicopters etc.
I always watched Balkan IL-18, Tu-154 & Aviogenex Tu 134 disembarking at BFS with trepidation. The hordes were scary!!! Sunburnt, hungover & back in Belfast in the pouring July rain. Ivan would not have stood a chance!
Berlin Corridor Reconnaissance
You may find interesting a book published in May 2015 - "Looking Down the Corridors: Allied Aerial Espionage over East Germany and Berlin 1945-1990" by Kevin Wright and Peter Jefferies. Available in hardback or Kindle. Covers UK, US and French corridor ops plus the local air activity over and around Berlin.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Carl, there was a TV play back in B&W TV days, can't recall too much except it was during the Wilson Government and was something like Government Inspector. The Soviet aircraft landed at Carnaby and all the Russian advisors explained, all in identical rain coats, bowler hats, umbrellas and briefcases.they march in single file and perfect step.
Some Il-76 freighters had a glass 'cupola' on the tail which I believe could be fitted with guns. Aeroflot were a reserve force I remember.
In later years these could often be seen on freight runs into Manston...
mmitch.
In later years these could often be seen on freight runs into Manston...
mmitch.
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"The Soviet aircraft landed at Carnaby" - when Carnaby became an industrial estate, one of the first tenants was firm importing Lada cars.
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One of the WSO instructors on 228 OCU (T+8, sadly departed) used to get stick for driving a Lada. His response was "Well, the people that make them have kept me in a job until now".
Innominate, indeed that firm did so. They also fitted cheap vinyl clad roofs to the cars - when someone asked whether this was to make them look more luxurious, the answer was given that it was necessary to cover the bumps and dents occasioned by the ship crews taking a short cut by walking across the top of them.
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This thread has been a most interesting read and, until I made a little more research on the web, I subsequently learn that one of the Op Ju Jitsu crew was Flight Engineer who I met some years ago; Joe Acklam. Back in the seventies Joe was a Squadron Leader with the Air Transport Command Checking Unit and, after a very short debrief upon my performance (he jumped my route in Gander to conduct a "surprise Route Check" whilst en-route to, I think, Barksdale), we took to the bar for a couple of cold beers. I recall at that time that he was getting on his years and he did mention that he flew the B-29... followed by flying a certain turbojet that he shouldn't be talking about! That "certain turbojet" I now realise must have been the RB-45C. I had just embarked upon my Flight Engineer career on the C-130K and I was keen to ask him about his exploits with the B-29. Joe was an absolute gentleman and extremely knowledgeable with all things aviation, though, no matter how many beers we might have had he wouldn't speak about that "certain turbojet". Our paths never did cross again but, in conversation with other colleagues, there was indeed a hint of something that happened within his career that couldn't be openly discussed. It's only today that I now know what took place.
Ciao
TCF
Ciao
TCF
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Lots of background information on British participation in U2 flights on this declassified Top Secret (Byeman) document
For example
For example
31 Dec 1958 British pilot flies the first operational mission
over Middle East targets. The British fly a total
of 28 missions with Detachment B (4 weather missions
over England, 2 photo reconnaissance missions over
the USSR from Peshawar, and the balance over the
Middle East.)
over Middle East targets. The British fly a total
of 28 missions with Detachment B (4 weather missions
over England, 2 photo reconnaissance missions over
the USSR from Peshawar, and the balance over the
Middle East.)
Last edited by ricardian; 22nd Mar 2016 at 08:53. Reason: spelling