Tonka delayed
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Tonka delayed
From todays Torygraph:
RAF bomber delayed by concrete farce.
RAF chiefs are facing an embarrassing delay to the deployment of Tornado bombers to replace Harriers in Afghanistan because a new concrete parking area is not ready.
By Thomas Harding, Defence Correspondent
Last Updated: 9:25PM GMT 22 Feb 2009
A new ramp is needed for the Tornados from 12 Squadron RAF Photo: AP
The four-month wait means that summer holidays for the over-worked Harrier pilots and aircrew are likely to be cancelled as they are called back for one further tour.
Delivery of eight Tornado GR4s to Kandahar airbase has also been delayed by a failure to clear new ground attacks bombs for use and over the fitting of missile defence aids.
Ministers are expected to meet next week before they make an announcement over the delayed deployment that has apparently been caused by a failure of concrete to set properly due to cold and inclement weather. There delay was caused by Whitehall indecision and a "bureaucratic nightmare" with other Nato allies who share the airfield on where to build the ramp.
Air force commanders face further humiliation as it has emerged that the £65 million Eurofighter Typhoon will not now see operational service in Afghanistan until at least 2011, two years later than originally planned.
A new ramp is needed for the Tornados from 12 Squadron RAF because they are almost twice the size of the Harriers they are replacing.
The Tornados are viewed by some aviation experts as a significant boost to the firepower available for troops who come into contact with the Taliban with a bigger payload of bombs, greater speed and duration.
They will carry the new highly accurate Brimstone long range missiles that will penetrate the strong mudbrick compounds used by the insurgents for defence.
But the Tornados are still waiting for clearance to use their Paveway IV bombs that will with greater accuracy and smaller payload will cause less damage to the civilian population.
The pilots, from 4 Squadron RAF of the Joint Harrier Force, are currently in Kandahar waiting to hear if their return home will be delayed.
But it is now becoming increasingly likely that an entire new squadron from Joint Force Harrier, probably a No 1 Squadron RAF with additional Navy pilots, will have to cancel their summer leave if they are called up.
"This is not going to be good for morale," a defence source said "Someone's long-postponed visit to Disneyland this summer is going to be ruined.
"This is also going to be particularly embarrassing for the Chief of the Air Staff."
While questions remain over the Tornado's manoeuvrability at low level, especially in Afghanistan's steep-sided valleys, the aircraft has been used extensively in Iraq backing up British and US troops on the streets of Baghdad, Fallujah and Basra.
While the Harrier has rocket pods the Tornado carries two 27mm Mauser cannon for strafing, two crew that allows for greater targeting ability and can carry more fuel giving them more time over targets. The Tornado has a top speed of 990mph compared to the Harrier's 660mph.
The Tornado is expected to fill the gap in Afghanistan until the new Typhoon is ready to take over possibly as late as 2011 as it attempts to convert to the ground attack role. Despite more than £20 billion spent on the Typhoon it has been held up coming into operational service in the role through a lack of trained pilots and the diversion of 72 aircraft sold to Saudi Arabia.
A Ministry of Defence spokesman said: "Certain infrastructure upgrades being constructed at Kandahar airfield, to support the Tornados, have suffered some unfortunate delays.
"Any changes to our plans will be announced to the House in the normal manner. The highly capable Tornados will replace the Harriers on operations in Afghanistan once the infrastructure and aircraft upgrades are complete."
RAF bomber delayed by concrete farce.
RAF chiefs are facing an embarrassing delay to the deployment of Tornado bombers to replace Harriers in Afghanistan because a new concrete parking area is not ready.
By Thomas Harding, Defence Correspondent
Last Updated: 9:25PM GMT 22 Feb 2009
A new ramp is needed for the Tornados from 12 Squadron RAF Photo: AP
The four-month wait means that summer holidays for the over-worked Harrier pilots and aircrew are likely to be cancelled as they are called back for one further tour.
Delivery of eight Tornado GR4s to Kandahar airbase has also been delayed by a failure to clear new ground attacks bombs for use and over the fitting of missile defence aids.
Ministers are expected to meet next week before they make an announcement over the delayed deployment that has apparently been caused by a failure of concrete to set properly due to cold and inclement weather. There delay was caused by Whitehall indecision and a "bureaucratic nightmare" with other Nato allies who share the airfield on where to build the ramp.
Air force commanders face further humiliation as it has emerged that the £65 million Eurofighter Typhoon will not now see operational service in Afghanistan until at least 2011, two years later than originally planned.
A new ramp is needed for the Tornados from 12 Squadron RAF because they are almost twice the size of the Harriers they are replacing.
The Tornados are viewed by some aviation experts as a significant boost to the firepower available for troops who come into contact with the Taliban with a bigger payload of bombs, greater speed and duration.
They will carry the new highly accurate Brimstone long range missiles that will penetrate the strong mudbrick compounds used by the insurgents for defence.
But the Tornados are still waiting for clearance to use their Paveway IV bombs that will with greater accuracy and smaller payload will cause less damage to the civilian population.
The pilots, from 4 Squadron RAF of the Joint Harrier Force, are currently in Kandahar waiting to hear if their return home will be delayed.
But it is now becoming increasingly likely that an entire new squadron from Joint Force Harrier, probably a No 1 Squadron RAF with additional Navy pilots, will have to cancel their summer leave if they are called up.
"This is not going to be good for morale," a defence source said "Someone's long-postponed visit to Disneyland this summer is going to be ruined.
"This is also going to be particularly embarrassing for the Chief of the Air Staff."
While questions remain over the Tornado's manoeuvrability at low level, especially in Afghanistan's steep-sided valleys, the aircraft has been used extensively in Iraq backing up British and US troops on the streets of Baghdad, Fallujah and Basra.
While the Harrier has rocket pods the Tornado carries two 27mm Mauser cannon for strafing, two crew that allows for greater targeting ability and can carry more fuel giving them more time over targets. The Tornado has a top speed of 990mph compared to the Harrier's 660mph.
The Tornado is expected to fill the gap in Afghanistan until the new Typhoon is ready to take over possibly as late as 2011 as it attempts to convert to the ground attack role. Despite more than £20 billion spent on the Typhoon it has been held up coming into operational service in the role through a lack of trained pilots and the diversion of 72 aircraft sold to Saudi Arabia.
A Ministry of Defence spokesman said: "Certain infrastructure upgrades being constructed at Kandahar airfield, to support the Tornados, have suffered some unfortunate delays.
"Any changes to our plans will be announced to the House in the normal manner. The highly capable Tornados will replace the Harriers on operations in Afghanistan once the infrastructure and aircraft upgrades are complete."
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Wowsers!! I am particularly gobsmacked that the Typhoon won't be going to war for that long.
Surely, however, the argument that two seats are better than one has been debunked by the RAF and the USAF (and many others) as most modern FJ are designed (should I say desired) to be going single seat - including Dave.
Surely, however, the argument that two seats are better than one has been debunked by the RAF and the USAF (and many others) as most modern FJ are designed (should I say desired) to be going single seat - including Dave.
Finn - Some would say that that argument only applies in a 5th gen fighter with correctly functioning sensor fusion...
Don't see many of them knocking about in the RAF right now!
Don't see many of them knocking about in the RAF right now!
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2 cannons? Are we sending GR1s'?
PW4 now cleared for use as part of UOR......
Maneuverability at low level a problem?
Brimstone long range missiles?
Top journalism again!!
PW4 now cleared for use as part of UOR......
Maneuverability at low level a problem?
Brimstone long range missiles?
Top journalism again!!
Last edited by Gaz ED; 23rd Feb 2009 at 10:27. Reason: stupidity....
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Dunno why they're blaming the RAF for the concrete aprons not being ready,that's down to who ever is building them,be it Army engineers or civvie contractors.
RAF bomber delayed by concrete farce - Telegraph
RAF bomber delayed by concrete farce - Telegraph
Last edited by spike_7451; 23rd Feb 2009 at 10:34.
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Indeed Spike_7451, its been a few years since the RAF last had their own airfield construction capability*.
Concrete not set, Tonka force's fault. I can see how that works.
*Oh and no, 5001 Sqn doesn't count for all you pedantic folk out there.
Concrete not set, Tonka force's fault. I can see how that works.
*Oh and no, 5001 Sqn doesn't count for all you pedantic folk out there.
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The delay has come as no real surprise to anyone in the Harrier world - the only surprise really was the number of very senior officers who continually spouted the "Tornados will replace Harriers on 1 April" line, making folk believe it
Wonder if any of them will fall on their swords now, and more importantly will they pick up the tab for the cancelled holidays to disneyland?
Wonder if any of them will fall on their swords now, and more importantly will they pick up the tab for the cancelled holidays to disneyland?
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Well,I started a thread on ARRSE with regards to this & the are some people in the know..
Army Rumour Service > > Forums > > The Serious Bit > > Current Affairs, News and Analysis > > Tornado deployment to afghan delayed by concrete farce
Interesting reading...
Army Rumour Service > > Forums > > The Serious Bit > > Current Affairs, News and Analysis > > Tornado deployment to afghan delayed by concrete farce
Interesting reading...
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Next to that article in today's Getelarph we find a photo of what's described as Harriers on HMS Invincible with the comment that pilots in Afghanistan may have to cancel their holidays as their stays are extended. To my untutored eye these strange aircraft look very like SHARs... Slack journalism in the DT? Surely not.
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Slack journalism in the DT? Surely not.
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Blame Gordon Brown.
The decision to deploy Tornado GR4 was delayed and delayed by the Gov even though everyone in the loop, including I'm sure CAS, had made it very clear what the required timelines were. Without the the go-ahead from the Gov no USURs could be raised, no work started etc etc, thereby compressing the already tight timescales.
The decision to deploy Tornado GR4 was delayed and delayed by the Gov even though everyone in the loop, including I'm sure CAS, had made it very clear what the required timelines were. Without the the go-ahead from the Gov no USURs could be raised, no work started etc etc, thereby compressing the already tight timescales.
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Had a shufti at the RAF web site and it classes Brimstone as a long range
air to ground missle alongside Alarm. So it appears to be a case of a lazy
jurno transfering crap from the Crabsite to a flesh out a crap article.
air to ground missle alongside Alarm. So it appears to be a case of a lazy
jurno transfering crap from the Crabsite to a flesh out a crap article.
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Hmm, I appear to be having a severe flashback to Basra, circa November 2006, and pained BAS4200 project meetings at which it became clear that the pacing item on the whole programme was the speed at which local contractors - even with added Royal Engineer oversight - could get the concrete to set.
Concrete's ability to set is determined by the amibent air temp. It takes about 3 times as long for it to set at 0C than at 20C. It will start to freeze below -2C and will not set at all below -7C, with the possibility of a up to 50% reduction in 28 day strength if that occurs...not something you want in PQ (Pavement Quality) mix for a/c aprons.
So, yes, if someone was faffing about delaying a decision and moving the build window into the winter months then this isn't a surprising result.
So, yes, if someone was faffing about delaying a decision and moving the build window into the winter months then this isn't a surprising result.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Just add that the article was probably personal. The correspondent's love affair with the RAF began last year at Brize when he was treated just like any other red top journo (his words) and not like the son of a Brigadier (my words).
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Concrete's ability to set is determined by the amibent air temp.
But fundamentally, concrete hydration is a chemical process that proceeds at its own pace. It takes several weeks before concrete approaches its ultimate strength.
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Not wanting to descend into "you read it here first" wi11y-waving, but the concrete issue was detailed in Flight several weeks ago:
UK could extend Harrier's Afghan tour of duty
I didn't hear anyone moaning about trips to Disneyland though, so scooped again!!
UK could extend Harrier's Afghan tour of duty
I didn't hear anyone moaning about trips to Disneyland though, so scooped again!!