RAF Finningley AAITC
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Ed, whilst I'll admit, some of the comments are a 'bit close to the bone', knowing some of the characters involved, they are in all probability well deserved. Admittedly the majority of people who did a Flt Cdr tour on AAITC/AEELS etc were decent blokes - but some of them had either hidden agendas or little in the way of a personality. Your comments about the views expressed are indicative of the reason why people get fed up of the 'politics' of Service life and the current aspiration to be PC in everything that we do. People have opinions and provided they don't cross the boundary of decency, they should be allowed to express them.
EdSett100, I agree with you. Even though I've encountered some of the people identified in this thread, one of whom I can well understand being loathed by his subordinates, it is unacceptable practice to 'name names' in such terms on PPRuNe.
It simply isn't done.
It simply isn't done.
Inter Arma Enim Silentius Lex Legis
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Beagle,
You really seem to be on you high horse at the moment, you have named and criticised on this forum before. For those of you who weren't originally NCA and therefore didn't suffer some of the human rights abuses meted out on AAITC I suggest you look elsewhere.
And don't even try to compare that poncey O's course at Cranners to the AAITC, there is nil comparison.
You really seem to be on you high horse at the moment, you have named and criticised on this forum before. For those of you who weren't originally NCA and therefore didn't suffer some of the human rights abuses meted out on AAITC I suggest you look elsewhere.
And don't even try to compare that poncey O's course at Cranners to the AAITC, there is nil comparison.
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AAITC
So Leaky, Just exactly how long is it since you, Tiger Mate and SFFP, emerged from under your stones? This site has a clear policy on the use of obscene and defamatory language - it is strictly prohibited. Regardless of your feelings towards these individuals you have absolutely no right to name names. These people are probably long retired after giving the best years of their lives to the RAF but your gutter mouths have now ensured that they will be held up for ridicule on the Web. It clearly hasn't crossed your brain cell how upsetting these comments will be to them, their friends, families and former colleagues. This thread started as a harmless exercise in reminiscing but it is now nothing more than a whingers' charter populated by a bunch of foulmouthed, big girls' blouses. One other thing, I would have paid good money to have watched any of you lot take your grievances face-to-face with Jake in his prime, but then that would have taken ba££s.
Edit: Offending post removed so a repeat of it is not necessary.
Edit: Offending post removed so a repeat of it is not necessary.
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Ah yes, the miniflares! God I'd forgotten all about those. That path at Malham was a nightmare, I think we just had a few shovels didn't we to lay that path? And of course the cry of "assume the position!" every 20 mins or so.
SLC
Don't remember the Capris and must have missed out on the sex under the Vulcan, typical! Heartbreak hill I do remember vividly, having to take those bloody pine poles up and down it god knows how many times. The name Cooper rings a bell but can't for the life of me picture him. I remember Georgie Fair and the fact he never seemed to smile at all.. As for the other instructors I must have blocked them out of my memory as I can't seem to remember any of them. Maybe not a bad thing from the comments being made!
Oh yes and what about Mandy?? I remember one cadet, can't remember his name filling his rucksack with pillows for the 10 mile route march/run and getting found out when they weighed the rucksacks. He ended up with Mandy AND a load of bricks I think in his rucksack. Is the course still similar does anyone know? Or has it been toned down?
SLC
Don't remember the Capris and must have missed out on the sex under the Vulcan, typical! Heartbreak hill I do remember vividly, having to take those bloody pine poles up and down it god knows how many times. The name Cooper rings a bell but can't for the life of me picture him. I remember Georgie Fair and the fact he never seemed to smile at all.. As for the other instructors I must have blocked them out of my memory as I can't seem to remember any of them. Maybe not a bad thing from the comments being made!
Oh yes and what about Mandy?? I remember one cadet, can't remember his name filling his rucksack with pillows for the 10 mile route march/run and getting found out when they weighed the rucksacks. He ended up with Mandy AND a load of bricks I think in his rucksack. Is the course still similar does anyone know? Or has it been toned down?
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I think I finished on 129 AAITC, which had Jon Lazzzzari as Flt Cdr. Can't say i really enjoyed the course, or him as Flt Cdr, but well remember him walking up to the door at 7th Heaven and announcing that he was Flt Lt Lazzari, Royal Air Force, and we were his boys. He got us free admission on grad night.Bumped into him a couple of times thereafter when he was on FRA.
Remember George Fair, Steve Gagan and Pete Green as being decent, not so sure about Reeves and Bellis though.
Y_G
Remember George Fair, Steve Gagan and Pete Green as being decent, not so sure about Reeves and Bellis though.
Y_G
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Gorilla:
Oh dear... Here comes the Airborne in this Aircrew.
Do you really think that anything that was done/said to you on AAITC was an "abuse of human rights"? The course was not really that physically demanding and while they messed us about they never really pushed us. Actually, it was much more about us having to push ourselves, motivate our mates and generally demonstrate a modicum of leadership and self discipline. The bolloxings: To be honest, until you've been berated by a Regiment Instructor you haven't been berated anywhere in the RAF. I've seen people physically beaten for outright demonstrations of weakness and lack of intestinal fortutude - and, to be honest, they deserved it and it had the required effect - they quit. We won't even discuss pre-pre Para and Pre-Para because you clearly wouldn't "get it", but I can assure you that, while making AAITC look like a Sunday afternoon in the pub, human rights were not abused. Actually, I'm unsure if your human rights can be abused if you have the option to walk into the Flt. Cdr's office and say "I quit".
AAITC was a good course, well balanced between taking youths that had completed only 6 weeks at Swinderby and "old sweats" with 10 years in and determining if they had what it takes to be NCA. It was a selection course, plain and simple. There was nothing you learned on AAITC that was of any use to you in the remainder of your career, that came later, (except maybe that pine poles are a pain)...
Lastly, I agree... Cranwell was for girls...
For those of you who weren't originally NCA and therefore didn't suffer some of the human rights abuses meted out on AAITC I suggest you look elsewhere.
Do you really think that anything that was done/said to you on AAITC was an "abuse of human rights"? The course was not really that physically demanding and while they messed us about they never really pushed us. Actually, it was much more about us having to push ourselves, motivate our mates and generally demonstrate a modicum of leadership and self discipline. The bolloxings: To be honest, until you've been berated by a Regiment Instructor you haven't been berated anywhere in the RAF. I've seen people physically beaten for outright demonstrations of weakness and lack of intestinal fortutude - and, to be honest, they deserved it and it had the required effect - they quit. We won't even discuss pre-pre Para and Pre-Para because you clearly wouldn't "get it", but I can assure you that, while making AAITC look like a Sunday afternoon in the pub, human rights were not abused. Actually, I'm unsure if your human rights can be abused if you have the option to walk into the Flt. Cdr's office and say "I quit".
AAITC was a good course, well balanced between taking youths that had completed only 6 weeks at Swinderby and "old sweats" with 10 years in and determining if they had what it takes to be NCA. It was a selection course, plain and simple. There was nothing you learned on AAITC that was of any use to you in the remainder of your career, that came later, (except maybe that pine poles are a pain)...
Lastly, I agree... Cranwell was for girls...
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>Pops head out from under stone<
A_A whilst I know you are well qualified to have an opinion about your comments, what you do not have an insight into is how the course has changed to accomodate the PC world in which we now live. Assuming that the changes have been made to ensure that the Euro Court of Human Rights does not feature in future redress cases; therego by default a 'risk' must have existed in the past. Lets face it, you simply cannot direct a 'cadet' to run around a parade square with a chair above his head nowadays.
That the para course was mental and physical abuse does not make AAITC any less challenging, especially to educated people who would question the motives of orders given, rather then asking is this high enough when told to jump. (No pun intended)
As for naming, names. I would normally agree when discussing current issues and events, however as an exception, this thread is about history and individuals perceptions regarding personalities. Individuals are entitled to those perceptions as each was earned from an initial clean slate. If the truth hurts, then life is a b*tch, but then we knew that already. There is a fair ammount of respect being awarded here to balance the plonkers of this world, and I dare say that nobody will complain about having been perceived as striking the balance just right.
A_A whilst I know you are well qualified to have an opinion about your comments, what you do not have an insight into is how the course has changed to accomodate the PC world in which we now live. Assuming that the changes have been made to ensure that the Euro Court of Human Rights does not feature in future redress cases; therego by default a 'risk' must have existed in the past. Lets face it, you simply cannot direct a 'cadet' to run around a parade square with a chair above his head nowadays.
That the para course was mental and physical abuse does not make AAITC any less challenging, especially to educated people who would question the motives of orders given, rather then asking is this high enough when told to jump. (No pun intended)
As for naming, names. I would normally agree when discussing current issues and events, however as an exception, this thread is about history and individuals perceptions regarding personalities. Individuals are entitled to those perceptions as each was earned from an initial clean slate. If the truth hurts, then life is a b*tch, but then we knew that already. There is a fair ammount of respect being awarded here to balance the plonkers of this world, and I dare say that nobody will complain about having been perceived as striking the balance just right.
Anybody out there old enough to have been on 58 course ?
I guess if you had a good flight commander (Paddy Quade) and a decent bunch of lads and lassies on the course that it was not too unenjoyable.
We did have a great MENG, whose name i have forgotten, always had a tiny roll up in his mouth, also a very tasty PTI.
I guess if you had a good flight commander (Paddy Quade) and a decent bunch of lads and lassies on the course that it was not too unenjoyable.
We did have a great MENG, whose name i have forgotten, always had a tiny roll up in his mouth, also a very tasty PTI.
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Tantrum et al,
What's most bizarre about your stance is that if I had mentioned my being on AAITC 151 during the first few months of 89, and at that time there was a Flt Cdr who was an Air Engineer, of Scottish descent who was not only small of stature but also universally despised, and is the only person in my 34 years of service who I have actually never wished well of, that would be deemed acceptable.
The fact that, despite naming him he would be instantly recognisable from the description and timeframe to not only himself but any family or friends reading this would also be deemed acceptable by the usual norms, how many times has dear old Beag's made ill will mentions with regards to a previous BZN Sqn Cdr leaving anyone in the know in no doubt as to the guys identity?
I happily standby the sentiments in my previous now deleted post and whilst I would not rule it out I doubt very much you will find too many who will contradict me, and if I have offended I guess that must be the baldric in me
What's most bizarre about your stance is that if I had mentioned my being on AAITC 151 during the first few months of 89, and at that time there was a Flt Cdr who was an Air Engineer, of Scottish descent who was not only small of stature but also universally despised, and is the only person in my 34 years of service who I have actually never wished well of, that would be deemed acceptable.
The fact that, despite naming him he would be instantly recognisable from the description and timeframe to not only himself but any family or friends reading this would also be deemed acceptable by the usual norms, how many times has dear old Beag's made ill will mentions with regards to a previous BZN Sqn Cdr leaving anyone in the know in no doubt as to the guys identity?
I happily standby the sentiments in my previous now deleted post and whilst I would not rule it out I doubt very much you will find too many who will contradict me, and if I have offended I guess that must be the baldric in me
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...what you do not have an insight into is how the course has changed to accomodate the PC world in which we now live. .... Lets face it, you simply cannot direct a 'cadet' to run around a parade square with a chair above his head nowadays.
That the para course was mental and physical abuse does not make AAITC any less challenging, especially to educated people who would question the motives of orders given, rather then asking is this high enough when told to jump. (No pun intended)
As to naming people... I hear no complaints about/from all the people that were complimented for being "good lads", "top men", etc. Let's face it, if you spent a portion of your career being an arse then it should come as no surprise when those that you were an arse to point it out. Or is someone trying to say that they should be protected from the truth about them? If so I suspect they would feel quite at home in the ivory tower that says that running around with a chair is a breach of their human rights...
Oh Bugger... I just agreed with Seldom... I must go thrash myself within an inch of my life...
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SFFP
I am not surprised to see you make such a pathetic attempt to justify your juvenile comments. Have you ever considered counselling to help you deal with the traumas you experienced at the hands of this "Air Engineer, of Scottish descent". Get over it man!!
Incidentally, I doubt if you possess any of Baldrick's qualities - he at least had some amusement value. On the other hand, the character was a former dung shoveller so maybe you have finally found your vocation.
Baldrick is also spelt with a "k" but presumably you would need to borrow another brain cell to work that one out.
I am not surprised to see you make such a pathetic attempt to justify your juvenile comments. Have you ever considered counselling to help you deal with the traumas you experienced at the hands of this "Air Engineer, of Scottish descent". Get over it man!!
Incidentally, I doubt if you possess any of Baldrick's qualities - he at least had some amusement value. On the other hand, the character was a former dung shoveller so maybe you have finally found your vocation.
Baldrick is also spelt with a "k" but presumably you would need to borrow another brain cell to work that one out.
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Hmmm...
Location: Dunbar...
Posts: 10
Name Tantallon, (a castle in East Lothian)
Manner: Indignant
Demeanor: Insulting.
Methinks Tantallon = an "Air Engineer, of Scottish descent"
Location: Dunbar...
Posts: 10
Name Tantallon, (a castle in East Lothian)
Manner: Indignant
Demeanor: Insulting.
Methinks Tantallon = an "Air Engineer, of Scottish descent"
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Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
AAITC was what it was. If you passed well done. If you didn't tough luck. If you didn't like it at the time we all had the option to walk.
I suffered what would be termed as "abuse" at Swinderby but not on the ITC. I could have caused a stink but chose to let it go as Swinderby was just a hoop to jump through as was ITC.
AAITC was what it was. If you passed well done. If you didn't tough luck. If you didn't like it at the time we all had the option to walk.
I suffered what would be termed as "abuse" at Swinderby but not on the ITC. I could have caused a stink but chose to let it go as Swinderby was just a hoop to jump through as was ITC.
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AAITC
Yeah, dream on AA. Sherlock Holmes you ain't. Congratulations on your map reading ability though, clearly AAITC wasn't entirely wasted on you.
SFFP. There aren't enough days in this new millenium to show you the error of your ways. I just hope that it was your "Air Engineer, of Scottish descent" who gave you your monicker, whatever his failings, clairvoyance wasn't one of them.
SFFP. There aren't enough days in this new millenium to show you the error of your ways. I just hope that it was your "Air Engineer, of Scottish descent" who gave you your monicker, whatever his failings, clairvoyance wasn't one of them.
Inter Arma Enim Silentius Lex Legis
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Airborne, ease up.
There was a smile after my post and I was taking the mickey out of dear old beagle.
I was the oldest person on my ITC (30+) and I went into it eyes wide open and enjoyed being converted from Substantive Sgt of almost two years into Plastique. However there were clearly some who enjoyed the darker side of life. It is easy to see how absolute power corrupts absolutely and there were those who abused their positions daily. Let us not forget that for some the AAITC Flt Cdr positions were not usually awarded on merit and neither were the FS positions.
It's one thing being empowered to do a job properly it's another to be OTT and physically abusive to those who are weaker in an effort to make them quit. Even one of the Padres at the time was in on the act, he really got off on that one. Verbal and mental abuse is essential within that environment and was often hilarious to receive and observe.
But it was a different RAF then and I am sure the guys who did Topcliffe before us found it much harder than we. It did sort the men from the boys and I am proud to say I did it and completed it first time around.
There was a smile after my post and I was taking the mickey out of dear old beagle.
I was the oldest person on my ITC (30+) and I went into it eyes wide open and enjoyed being converted from Substantive Sgt of almost two years into Plastique. However there were clearly some who enjoyed the darker side of life. It is easy to see how absolute power corrupts absolutely and there were those who abused their positions daily. Let us not forget that for some the AAITC Flt Cdr positions were not usually awarded on merit and neither were the FS positions.
It's one thing being empowered to do a job properly it's another to be OTT and physically abusive to those who are weaker in an effort to make them quit. Even one of the Padres at the time was in on the act, he really got off on that one. Verbal and mental abuse is essential within that environment and was often hilarious to receive and observe.
But it was a different RAF then and I am sure the guys who did Topcliffe before us found it much harder than we. It did sort the men from the boys and I am proud to say I did it and completed it first time around.
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Gorilla:
My error... I mistook the smiley as your signature line and therefore did not associate it with the content of the post.
Tantallon:
Unfortunately, there isn't a sign for "might equal" or I would have used it... Also, had you read _and_ understood what I wrote you would be aware that AAITC did nothing to improve my map reading...
My error... I mistook the smiley as your signature line and therefore did not associate it with the content of the post.
Tantallon:
Unfortunately, there isn't a sign for "might equal" or I would have used it... Also, had you read _and_ understood what I wrote you would be aware that AAITC did nothing to improve my map reading...
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Gorilla,
Similar tale here, 30+ and sub Sgt at start of ITC, went round once and loved every moment of it
Tantrum,
I have been around and about for 34 years now, met a whole swathe of different folk in that time and only ever despised one. Now who was it who recently posted that once you get personal in an argument you've lost
Similar tale here, 30+ and sub Sgt at start of ITC, went round once and loved every moment of it
Tantrum,
I have been around and about for 34 years now, met a whole swathe of different folk in that time and only ever despised one. Now who was it who recently posted that once you get personal in an argument you've lost
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SFFP
Where you the one who wore his "groundcrew" Sgt stripes for a few days whilst temporarily chopped before being re-instated. Apologies if I'm mistaken and caused unneccesary offence.
All this reminiscing about the ITC will give me nightmares. Probably about the scottish engineer, the AEO with the Greek sounding name, the FS with the dog, the SYKOpathic PTI and the padre you should not confide in.
Where you the one who wore his "groundcrew" Sgt stripes for a few days whilst temporarily chopped before being re-instated. Apologies if I'm mistaken and caused unneccesary offence.
All this reminiscing about the ITC will give me nightmares. Probably about the scottish engineer, the AEO with the Greek sounding name, the FS with the dog, the SYKOpathic PTI and the padre you should not confide in.