Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II
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dogle,
Interesting, but this raises a thought. Does your: "...... and boondocks is of separate Native American origin ...." possibly add some weight to the conjecture that asiatic tribes crossed the Behring Strait in prehistoric days, to become the Native Americans of today ?
I throw it open (pace our kindly Moderators).
D.
Interesting, but this raises a thought. Does your: "...... and boondocks is of separate Native American origin ...." possibly add some weight to the conjecture that asiatic tribes crossed the Behring Strait in prehistoric days, to become the Native Americans of today ?
I throw it open (pace our kindly Moderators).
D.
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Fareastdriver,
Good thing your feathered projectile didn't go through the front screen and jam you instead of just your radar ! (and I use the word 'jam' advisedly)
Some time ago I told the tale of getting off my strip just before it turned to mud. On my way to firmer, paved ground, I was somewhere in the clag over the Western Ghats when this black turkey-sized thing flashed just over the cockpit canopy.
I don't know which of us got the greater shock, but if we had connected, the inch or so armoured glass in my front panel should have protected me.
And once, way past v1, I took a s**tehawk in between the cylinders, but that was fatal only to the bird.
D.
Good thing your feathered projectile didn't go through the front screen and jam you instead of just your radar ! (and I use the word 'jam' advisedly)
Some time ago I told the tale of getting off my strip just before it turned to mud. On my way to firmer, paved ground, I was somewhere in the clag over the Western Ghats when this black turkey-sized thing flashed just over the cockpit canopy.
I don't know which of us got the greater shock, but if we had connected, the inch or so armoured glass in my front panel should have protected me.
And once, way past v1, I took a s**tehawk in between the cylinders, but that was fatal only to the bird.
D.
Last edited by Danny42C; 20th Nov 2014 at 16:48. Reason: Typo
Big grimaces and sucking of teeth when the Puma HC1 came out. Just behind a fragile centre windscreen were the engine shut off levers. They were positioned precisely where if a large bird hit the Perspex at high speed and went through it would push them both back. There were lots of augments bandied about but in the end all was left alone. As far as I recall it never happened though I may be wrong.
The original Puma Mk1 also had open intakes. This meant that any objects that bounced off the windscreen went into the engines. Fortunately the Turmo 3C engine was of an agricultural design originally built to power railway trains. The first stage compressor, a 100mm. deep titanium chunk, would happily convert sparrows and suchlike into jet fuel.
Later models and also I believe the Puma Mk2 have the elongated shut off levers that are angled so that they cannot be operated by a stray bird. The engines intakes were eventually protected by particle separators, snow dams or chip baskets.
The original Puma Mk1 also had open intakes. This meant that any objects that bounced off the windscreen went into the engines. Fortunately the Turmo 3C engine was of an agricultural design originally built to power railway trains. The first stage compressor, a 100mm. deep titanium chunk, would happily convert sparrows and suchlike into jet fuel.
Later models and also I believe the Puma Mk2 have the elongated shut off levers that are angled so that they cannot be operated by a stray bird. The engines intakes were eventually protected by particle separators, snow dams or chip baskets.
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Pom Pax (your #6461),
Yer, them Wellingtons wurz Wellingtons in't picture (nothing like a Blenheim, for Pete's sake !) Blenheims I knew well, ever since a pair of 16 yr olds (my cousin and I) propped our bikes against the fence at Wyton one far-off summer day ('38) and longingly watched them doing C&Bs. Little did we know, then.
"Wimpeys" I knew well, too; I watched them being assembled at Hawarden in '42, and one night of pouring rain a sad little group of sodden "guards" surreptitiously gained dry shelter in a parked specimen which had been left with the aft crew door unlocked (and there was a canvas bunk down the back too !) Never flew in 'em, but always had a soft spot for them ever since.
For those of less mature years, perhaps I might add that the well loved "Popeye" cartoon character had, you may recall, a tubby, shambling friend called "J. Wellington Wimpey". The connection was made at once: all were known as "Wimpeys" ever after.
One was the star of a film ("Target for Tonight"), made (I think) by the Ministry of Information in the early part of the war. Well worth seeing, if it ever appears again.
Cheers, Danny.
Yer, them Wellingtons wurz Wellingtons in't picture (nothing like a Blenheim, for Pete's sake !) Blenheims I knew well, ever since a pair of 16 yr olds (my cousin and I) propped our bikes against the fence at Wyton one far-off summer day ('38) and longingly watched them doing C&Bs. Little did we know, then.
"Wimpeys" I knew well, too; I watched them being assembled at Hawarden in '42, and one night of pouring rain a sad little group of sodden "guards" surreptitiously gained dry shelter in a parked specimen which had been left with the aft crew door unlocked (and there was a canvas bunk down the back too !) Never flew in 'em, but always had a soft spot for them ever since.
For those of less mature years, perhaps I might add that the well loved "Popeye" cartoon character had, you may recall, a tubby, shambling friend called "J. Wellington Wimpey". The connection was made at once: all were known as "Wimpeys" ever after.
One was the star of a film ("Target for Tonight"), made (I think) by the Ministry of Information in the early part of the war. Well worth seeing, if it ever appears again.
Cheers, Danny.
The talk of bird strikes brings to my mind a story I heard years ago, in the days when I was accruing gliding hours. It related to a glider pilot, I believe an Italian, who was soaring in the Alps, some nice big ridges there to provide lots of lovely upwardly flowing air. This chap, it appeared found a thermal, and decided to make use of its assistance. Within minutes of starting his turn, in a solid climb, he noticed an eagle (not sure what kind, I heard a "bloody big one") formatting on his in turn wing tip, and screeching its head off. Ignoring the bird he continued to climb. After a short time there was an almighty crash and the bird arrived, through the Perspex of his canopy and proceeded to set about the pilot, who received serious damage around his eyes. As I was told, the bird believed that the pilot was invading its airspace and decided to take him to task. The ending I heard was that the pilot managed to throttle the bird, and land safely back at the launch point. I wonder if anyone else has heard of this, I will set off on an Internet hunt now, to see if I can find any historical evidence of its veracity.
Smudge
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Target for Tonight
Danny
The film "Target for Tonight" can be found on the following link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDTLeFl8cXU
Regards
Pete
The film "Target for Tonight" can be found on the following link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDTLeFl8cXU
Regards
Pete
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Smudge,
Well, I suppose if you can fight off a krait in the cockpit with a kukri, you should be able to throttle an eagle with bare hands, but they have nasty beaks and sharp talons: I would not like to try it !
Do they eat well ? (swans were a centrepiece of medieval banquets).
Danny.
Well, I suppose if you can fight off a krait in the cockpit with a kukri, you should be able to throttle an eagle with bare hands, but they have nasty beaks and sharp talons: I would not like to try it !
Do they eat well ? (swans were a centrepiece of medieval banquets).
Danny.
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nothing like a Blenheim, for Pete's sake !
I having grown up in the centre of a circle Wyton, Mepal , Witchford, Waterbeach, Oakington, Wyton ask what was a 16 year old from up North doing playing spotter at Wyton? Was this your first yearning to be an aviator?
I reckon that circle is a polygon.
Last edited by Pom Pax; 19th Nov 2014 at 12:43. Reason: Geometry
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Pom Pax,
Mere crewroom banter, my dear chap, I assure you (of course you can tell a Wellington from a Blenheim ! - everybody can do that). But the problem with opening a can of worms is that there are an awful lot of worms in it. So let's start counting:
(1) Your: "..... in early '42 Moulmein was the target for several raids by Blenheims the only available bombers of a very small force in Burma....."
In early '42 I would think the only Blenheims in India (the Japs had got all Burma by then) would be those just brought out by the four squadrons (45,82,84,&110) to help stop the rot. When it seemed that the Japs had stopped for a rest on the India/Burma border anyway, they flew the Blenheims back to the M.E. with just their junior pilots (and I suppose a Nav or two to find the way).
So the rest were on the ground twiddling their thumbs when the unloved and unwanted VVs came on the scene - and the rest you know.
(2) Your: "....Wellingtons (No 215's) first appear operational in theatre on 23/4/42...."
We had no contact with the Wellingtons, and really the only thing I remember is the story of a lone Wimpey with a single 4,000 lb bomb working together with a VV squadron (82 ? - certainly not 110 RAF or 8 IAF). They must have been on the same airfield, as in the "Farewell to the VV" poem ("You always were an ugly brute/Of that there can be no dispute...etc") there are some final couplets hinting at a ground collision between the Wimpey and a VV from which the VV came off worst !
(3) Oddly enough, I'd never heard of Mepal ! (had to look it up). I suppose Tony and I settled on Wyton as it was the nearest to Huntingdon and had plenty to see. Mepal can't have been much further on.
(4) Your: "....All 16 year old boys of my time yearned to be aviators..."
Particularly did they yearn in autumn '40, after the "Few" had thrown Hitler's intended invasion of Britain out of the window. Many achieved their ambition; they got all the aviation they wanted; a little more than a half of the tens of thousands of them survived.
"A Polygon is a dead parrot" (well, many thought it was funny at the time !)
Cheers, Danny.
Mere crewroom banter, my dear chap, I assure you (of course you can tell a Wellington from a Blenheim ! - everybody can do that). But the problem with opening a can of worms is that there are an awful lot of worms in it. So let's start counting:
(1) Your: "..... in early '42 Moulmein was the target for several raids by Blenheims the only available bombers of a very small force in Burma....."
In early '42 I would think the only Blenheims in India (the Japs had got all Burma by then) would be those just brought out by the four squadrons (45,82,84,&110) to help stop the rot. When it seemed that the Japs had stopped for a rest on the India/Burma border anyway, they flew the Blenheims back to the M.E. with just their junior pilots (and I suppose a Nav or two to find the way).
So the rest were on the ground twiddling their thumbs when the unloved and unwanted VVs came on the scene - and the rest you know.
(2) Your: "....Wellingtons (No 215's) first appear operational in theatre on 23/4/42...."
We had no contact with the Wellingtons, and really the only thing I remember is the story of a lone Wimpey with a single 4,000 lb bomb working together with a VV squadron (82 ? - certainly not 110 RAF or 8 IAF). They must have been on the same airfield, as in the "Farewell to the VV" poem ("You always were an ugly brute/Of that there can be no dispute...etc") there are some final couplets hinting at a ground collision between the Wimpey and a VV from which the VV came off worst !
(3) Oddly enough, I'd never heard of Mepal ! (had to look it up). I suppose Tony and I settled on Wyton as it was the nearest to Huntingdon and had plenty to see. Mepal can't have been much further on.
(4) Your: "....All 16 year old boys of my time yearned to be aviators..."
Particularly did they yearn in autumn '40, after the "Few" had thrown Hitler's intended invasion of Britain out of the window. Many achieved their ambition; they got all the aviation they wanted; a little more than a half of the tens of thousands of them survived.
"A Polygon is a dead parrot" (well, many thought it was funny at the time !)
Cheers, Danny.
Last edited by Danny42C; 19th Nov 2014 at 20:05. Reason: Spacing.
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Target for Tonight.
Petet,
Thanks for the link ! Ran it through again - it takes you back to those days (although I had nothing to do with Bomber Command).
Did we really look and sound like that ? (I suppose we must have done). And note the pipes ! They were almost de rigueur in those days. I started puffing them when I got to India. They made you look very grave and thoughtful - it is impossible to panic and smoke a pipe at the same time !
Gave 'em up when I retired from the RAF. They're still around somewhere, I suppose.
Danny.
Thanks for the link ! Ran it through again - it takes you back to those days (although I had nothing to do with Bomber Command).
Did we really look and sound like that ? (I suppose we must have done). And note the pipes ! They were almost de rigueur in those days. I started puffing them when I got to India. They made you look very grave and thoughtful - it is impossible to panic and smoke a pipe at the same time !
Gave 'em up when I retired from the RAF. They're still around somewhere, I suppose.
Danny.
Bombers in Burma
Pom Pax's post #6460 refers to a Google Book that can be read online, this book among other things mentions US American Volunteer Group (AVG) P-40s based at Toungoo (Rangoon?) escorting Lysanders to bomb Moulmein in February 1942.
According to an Indian Air Force historical website a Lysander could carry a 250lb bomb on the undercarriage winglets, seems a lot but that's what they say.
See here for photos of IAF Lysanders in 1941 - 43:
The Westland Lysander II - service in the Indian Air Force (Part III) - Jagan Pillarisetti [www.bharat-rakshak.com]
Pom Pax's post #6460 refers to a Google Book that can be read online, this book among other things mentions US American Volunteer Group (AVG) P-40s based at Toungoo (Rangoon?) escorting Lysanders to bomb Moulmein in February 1942.
According to an Indian Air Force historical website a Lysander could carry a 250lb bomb on the undercarriage winglets, seems a lot but that's what they say.
See here for photos of IAF Lysanders in 1941 - 43:
The Westland Lysander II - service in the Indian Air Force (Part III) - Jagan Pillarisetti [www.bharat-rakshak.com]
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Mepal
Danny, I enjoyed the parrot joke and can forgive your ignorance of Mepal. Mepal would have been built, operational and virtually abandoned during your sojourn in warmer climes and its second coming was probably during your period of non-residence. However I was surprised when I typed Mepal in the search function at the number of hits returned. Two which amused me occur in a thread about the Oakington let down.
Thor
and the second concerns a small village where the Great Ouse burst its banks in the great floods of March '47 called Over. This place has caused great distress to your fellow atcers.
Thor
and the second concerns a small village where the Great Ouse burst its banks in the great floods of March '47 called Over. This place has caused great distress to your fellow atcers.
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"Lizzies"
Warmtoast.
Could be wrong, but the things tucked on to the bombracks don't look like 250 lb bombs to me (no tails, for a start). LR tanks more likely.
They did a mod on them with a twin tail and a rear 2 (4?) gun turret between. Met a chap once who'd flown 'em. Said they (the modded ones) were pigs to fly !
Can't see that they'd get much lift from those stubs, can you ?
D.
Could be wrong, but the things tucked on to the bombracks don't look like 250 lb bombs to me (no tails, for a start). LR tanks more likely.
They did a mod on them with a twin tail and a rear 2 (4?) gun turret between. Met a chap once who'd flown 'em. Said they (the modded ones) were pigs to fly !
Can't see that they'd get much lift from those stubs, can you ?
D.
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In the Good Old Days.
Pom Pax,
All the East and South of England was covered with airfields by the end of WWII (we were "the unsinkable aircraft carrier"). I had a Secret Document (SD 106 ?) in my safe at one time, showed them all (black spots on white paper). You couldn't see the white for the spots ! All gone back to farmland now.
Re floods, it rained in earlier years, too. As one exasperated 8th Air Force B-17 driver is reputed to have said (after the rain had drummed down non-stop on his Nissen hut for a week or two): "Why don't they just cut all the goddam balloon cables and let the place sink !"
D.
All the East and South of England was covered with airfields by the end of WWII (we were "the unsinkable aircraft carrier"). I had a Secret Document (SD 106 ?) in my safe at one time, showed them all (black spots on white paper). You couldn't see the white for the spots ! All gone back to farmland now.
Re floods, it rained in earlier years, too. As one exasperated 8th Air Force B-17 driver is reputed to have said (after the rain had drummed down non-stop on his Nissen hut for a week or two): "Why don't they just cut all the goddam balloon cables and let the place sink !"
D.
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danny42C ... ITSR hearing/reading that in the later stages of The War you couldn't be more than 5 miles from an airfield in E Anglia and Lincs.
I too used to have a map ... Not sure it was that classified, though!
I too used to have a map ... Not sure it was that classified, though!
Danny, My Airfix Lysander about 60 years ago had the 'option' of 3 bombs on each winglet. They were quite small ones and do I remember that in the event of invasion they were to bomb the beaches? I have read that Churchill considered using gas....
mmitch.
mmitch.
Danny
Only one Lysander, the first prototype, was converted with what was apparently called the Delanne wing - or tail - and the 4-gun turret. An extremely odd looking contraption with what looks like a much shortened fuselage and an extremely long span tail with twin fins. I've no idea about a pig to fly but it was said to be very stable in flight.
Westland P.12 in Google brings up many images.
I've never had any secret documents but I do have a book which says it covers all 653 (!) military airfields from WWII. I'm from Hertfordshire and now live in Derbyshire. The two counties together had only 10 airfields and I guess further west/north west would be similarly sparse which gives an idea of how crowded the southern and particularly eastern counties must have been.
Only one Lysander, the first prototype, was converted with what was apparently called the Delanne wing - or tail - and the 4-gun turret. An extremely odd looking contraption with what looks like a much shortened fuselage and an extremely long span tail with twin fins. I've no idea about a pig to fly but it was said to be very stable in flight.
Westland P.12 in Google brings up many images.
I've never had any secret documents but I do have a book which says it covers all 653 (!) military airfields from WWII. I'm from Hertfordshire and now live in Derbyshire. The two counties together had only 10 airfields and I guess further west/north west would be similarly sparse which gives an idea of how crowded the southern and particularly eastern counties must have been.
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IAF Lysanders
Danny42C,
The IAF Lysanders did carry 250lb bombs.
The shackles are shown here http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Hi...nder-burma.jpg and here http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Hi...Sqn-Pandit.jpg
Here are the bombs being prepped
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Hi...ft/4Sqn-02.jpg
Sqn Ldr Majumdar won the DFC in Burma for attacking Japanese airfields during January-March 1942 using the 250 lb bombs. His citation is here
"MAJUMDAR, Karun Krishna, S/L (Ind 1555, Indian Air Force) - No.1 Squadron, Indian Air Force - Distinguished Flying Cross - awarded as per London Gazette dated 10 November 1942. Following text from Flight, 10 December 1942; relevant Air Ministry Bulletin probably has more.
"Early this year this officer commanded the squadron during its activities in Burma. He led two unescorted attacks on enemy airfields in Thailand and attacks in support of the army in Tennasserim; he also completed valuable reconnaissances during the retirement from Rangoon to the Prome positions."
Majumdar was very forthright about the RAF's reluctance to fight (specifically 28 Sqn with Lysanders) during that period.
Some Colonel Blimp at Air HQ passed a remark about Majumdar's DFC being "given for a retreat". Majumdar was a Wg Cdr at the time, dropped a rank and volunteered for the European theater. He flew with 268 Sqn over France and won a bar to his DFC.
"MAJUMDAR, Karun Krishna, S/L (Ind 1555, Indian Air Force) - No.268 Squadron - Bar to Distinguished Flying Cross - awarded as per London Gazette dated 23 January 1945. Public Record Office Air 2/9043 has citation drafted when he had flown 68 sorties (102 operational hours). Identical text published in Flight, 8 March 1945.
"This officer has completed many tactical reconnaissance and photographic sorties. His keenness for operational work and his skill on difficult and dangerous missions has always been outstanding. Before the advance northwards in France, he completed exceptionally valuable photographic reconnaissances of the Seine bridges, in the face of heavy ground defences. He has also participated in long tactical reconnaissances on which he was several times intercepted by superior formations of enemy aircraft. His skill and courage have always been outstanding.""
A good book to read about the Indian side of the CBI air war is "Combat Lore: Indian Air Force 1930-1945" available here Lancer Publishers Online Bookshop
The IAF Lysanders did carry 250lb bombs.
The shackles are shown here http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Hi...nder-burma.jpg and here http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Hi...Sqn-Pandit.jpg
Here are the bombs being prepped
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Hi...ft/4Sqn-02.jpg
Sqn Ldr Majumdar won the DFC in Burma for attacking Japanese airfields during January-March 1942 using the 250 lb bombs. His citation is here
"MAJUMDAR, Karun Krishna, S/L (Ind 1555, Indian Air Force) - No.1 Squadron, Indian Air Force - Distinguished Flying Cross - awarded as per London Gazette dated 10 November 1942. Following text from Flight, 10 December 1942; relevant Air Ministry Bulletin probably has more.
"Early this year this officer commanded the squadron during its activities in Burma. He led two unescorted attacks on enemy airfields in Thailand and attacks in support of the army in Tennasserim; he also completed valuable reconnaissances during the retirement from Rangoon to the Prome positions."
Majumdar was very forthright about the RAF's reluctance to fight (specifically 28 Sqn with Lysanders) during that period.
Some Colonel Blimp at Air HQ passed a remark about Majumdar's DFC being "given for a retreat". Majumdar was a Wg Cdr at the time, dropped a rank and volunteered for the European theater. He flew with 268 Sqn over France and won a bar to his DFC.
"MAJUMDAR, Karun Krishna, S/L (Ind 1555, Indian Air Force) - No.268 Squadron - Bar to Distinguished Flying Cross - awarded as per London Gazette dated 23 January 1945. Public Record Office Air 2/9043 has citation drafted when he had flown 68 sorties (102 operational hours). Identical text published in Flight, 8 March 1945.
"This officer has completed many tactical reconnaissance and photographic sorties. His keenness for operational work and his skill on difficult and dangerous missions has always been outstanding. Before the advance northwards in France, he completed exceptionally valuable photographic reconnaissances of the Seine bridges, in the face of heavy ground defences. He has also participated in long tactical reconnaissances on which he was several times intercepted by superior formations of enemy aircraft. His skill and courage have always been outstanding.""
A good book to read about the Indian side of the CBI air war is "Combat Lore: Indian Air Force 1930-1945" available here Lancer Publishers Online Bookshop
Pom Pax,
How interesting that you should mention Mepal. My late father in law served on No 75 Squadron as Groundcrew on Stirlings there, early in WW2. He always had some great memories of the place, and particularly the Kiwi's. It was his association with the aircraft that tempted me to purchase "Stirling in action with the Airborne Forces by Dennis Williams" recently, for my Kindle. It particularly follows 190 and 620 Squadrons at Fairford later in the war, in their support of covert and invasion troops. The big bird was certainly an asset as a transport/glider tug and it strikes me that they were the forerunners of our present day SF Flights. I would recommend it to anyone with an interest in that part of the war, and it seems to be opening up some good stuff on Arnhem (Operation Market) in which they were heavily involved. I'm struggling to imagine the Lysander with the big gun turret though.
Smudge
How interesting that you should mention Mepal. My late father in law served on No 75 Squadron as Groundcrew on Stirlings there, early in WW2. He always had some great memories of the place, and particularly the Kiwi's. It was his association with the aircraft that tempted me to purchase "Stirling in action with the Airborne Forces by Dennis Williams" recently, for my Kindle. It particularly follows 190 and 620 Squadrons at Fairford later in the war, in their support of covert and invasion troops. The big bird was certainly an asset as a transport/glider tug and it strikes me that they were the forerunners of our present day SF Flights. I would recommend it to anyone with an interest in that part of the war, and it seems to be opening up some good stuff on Arnhem (Operation Market) in which they were heavily involved. I'm struggling to imagine the Lysander with the big gun turret though.
Smudge