Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II

[Danny42C]

Tutti Frutti.

Nkosi,

Thanks for your interesting tale, but I'm bowing out soon. Now you must have a host of wonderful stories under your belt - and this is the place to tell them. Come on in, the water's fine !

Your:
"I have now retired but do miss, from time to time, the world of aircraft that I was part of for 50 years".

It's alive and well, and it's here !

Now your Dad may well have been in the Arakan with me. We had the 81st (West African) Division out there, but I'm not sure about the East African. They may have been up North on the Imphal front. Any clues ?.....D.

FantomZorbin ,

Thanks, but "all good things must come to an end"....D.

26er ,

Wasn't that the one which contained the immortal words: "The Mighty Anson Bomber" (pronounced "Bahmber" which were quoted endlessly for years afterward in mockery - poor old Annie !

IIRC, the Attenborough character saved the day, but I can't remember how. The film was a naked plug for Navigators, a job sometimes regarded as a "consolation prize" for failed Pilots.

The "Fighting Lady" would be the "Lady Lex" - the US fleet carrier "Lexington". Not sure in which sea battle she went down fighting, but don't think Midway......D.

Reader123,

I think everyone in RAF training in WW2 was marched in to see it on "no see, no fly" days...D.

Xercules,

Very interesting ! Will have a good, hard look at this, unravel what I can, and reply further...D. (This has got out of sequence, should have gone to you before the last Post - sorry.....D)


Regards to all, Danny.

[Ian Burgess-Barber]

Spartan SofA

Xercules (and Danny)

My first reaction on seeing "Spartan SofA" was that it referred to The Spartan School of Aeronautics of Tulsa Oklahoma. They were used for U.S.A.A.C purposes from Aug. 1939 and took RAF students from June 1941. They still exist in Tulsa (now called Spartan College of Aeronautics & Technology). Spartan also ran 3 BFTS in Miami Oklahoma.

Ian BB

[26er]

Danny,


The Fighting Lady was the USS Yorktown. The film is worth watching again if you've the time. Try Google.


There were two Yorktowns - CV5 and CV10. I visited CV10 near Charlestown SC.

[MPN11]

31 PDC ... not a Personnel Detention Centre, I trust?
(Ah, it's a Personnel Despatch Centre. This was interesting, and indicative of the scale of things, although not specific in this case ... Ground Units )

However ...
"31 PD (or PDC) was at Moncton" in '42, it seems? Presumably they moved 31PDC.
Form 543 RAF Service Records - Abbreviations

Search of "31PDC RCAF" on Mr Google's magnificent facility has several links. Including this one (4th paragraph on that page) >>>> The Arnold Scheme: British Pilots, the American South, and the Allies ... - Gilbert Sumter Guinn - Google Books

Sheesh, it's complicated!

Oh, and ...

Originally Posted by Danny42C

Thanks for your interesting tale, but I'm bowing out soon.

... Nooooooooo!!

[Danny42C]

Oops !

Ian BB,

"A Hit, Sir - a very palpable hit !"....Touché !! (retires in shame and confusion - wasn't a very good guess of mine was it ? - pity, I thought I was on to something. And my sincere apologies to Blackpool).

Alters the picture somewhat. (Xercules please note). So Spartan (of which I'd never heard) was his Primary, which makes Maxwell his Advanced. ("Curiouser and curiouser, said Alice"). Something very funny is going on here - but what ?

Could this be in any way connected to the mysterious transfer to 5 BFTS ? Baffles me. Is there anyone on this frequency out there who was around at Maxwell or Miami at the time, and knows anything about this ?

Thanks, Ian, for bringing this howler of mine to light ! Danny.

[Ian Burgess-Barber]

Finding Spartan

Aw shucks Danny, I'm not so clever really! It is just that I have been a reader of the American magazine "Flying" since 1970, and Spartan was a regular advertiser in that publication, so the word just leapt off the page to me. Forgive me for being picky but it was 3 BFTS, not 5 BFTS (in your last post) that we are referring to.

Spartan SofA - (no date but then there are 3 entries lower with an inserting arrow)
Albany - 8/6/41
Maxwell Fld - 6/8/41
3 BFTS Miami - 28/8/41

I wish I understood what Xercules means by
"with an inserting arrow"

Most Mysterious

Ian BB

[Xercules]

IBB - I apologise that my description was less than specific of the "inserting arrow" but it was the best I could do from where I was. I will not be at home for a couple of days yet but will then try to scan and include that for you.

However, the Spartan entry is on one line of the RoS. There is then a gap of a couple of lines and then some following entries and then the "Albany, Maxwell and Miami" ones with a bracket and hand drawn arrow effectively placing them against the "Spartan" entry. The entries in between all post date those of the 3.

For the interim, I hope this helps.

[Ian Burgess-Barber]

Wozz goin' on?

Xercs. no apology is needed. I too have struggled to understand the sometimes arcane hand-written things put on my father's Record Cards - they, (the records clerks in the 1940s) obviously knew what they meant, but at this distance it is difficult for us to decipher. The man we need to come in right now is 'Petet' who has cleared up these clerical mysteries for us on more than one occasion on this thread. It would indeed be most helpful to see a scan (a picture is worth a thousand words). Until I have sight of this record I wonder if the line "Spartan SofA" without a date next to it is just a heading, ref. lend-lease billing, and doesn't mean that he went to Tulsa at that time but that they knew that 3 BFTS was where he would finally reach a flying school after acclimatisation and ground school at Albany and Maxwell.
Don't know. Just saying!

Ian BB

[Nkosi]

More from Nkosi

Hello again Danny,

Regarding my fathers war service in Burma;

Trailing through my ever diminishing memory bank I can remember a mounted shield my father had been presented to by his troops at war end. The shield had various named places where his troops/workshops were located during the Burma campaign including, Imphal, Chittagong, Shwebo and on to the Mandalay front.

I have also come across an extract from the East African Standard of March 1945 written by a reporter named George Kinnear in which my father is featured and which a paragraph says;

"In an attractive Burmese house,which the skill of a clean tablecloth and a couple of old car seats covered with mauve material and a homemade cabinet gramophone had made comfortable, I found the East African big game hunter and farmer, Major William Bird, of Rongai, now commanding the only infantry workshop on the Mandalay front".........

The locations mentioned may be familiar to you Danny but my father had the linguistic ability to converse with his artisans from various tribes of East Africa, namely. Nyasia's, Jaluo, Kikuyu and Kamba.

Stories to tell, I have had a terrific life and have enjoyed all parts of it. Scared myself witless at times, but learned from them also. Perhaps one day a book will emerge - better to put it all down in black and ink before it is gone forever I suppose.

Regarding the Military aircraft side of things, the first aircraft that I was qualified to maintain (QM) in navy speak was the Westland Wyvern, a great big beast of a machine. Then on to DH Venom 22's, then DH 110's (Sea Vixen Mk I), then Supermarine Scimitars, then Hunters followed by small helicopters(Sioux, or Bell 47 G3B1's). I served on four aircraft carriers with various squadrons before moving to the rotary wing side of things with the Royal Marines. Did the business in In Borneo during Confrontation and then stepped into the civilian world after demob.

Then the start of the next adventure - back to Africa but this time South Africa.

Perhaps more later.

Nkosi

[Danny42C]

Nkosi,

Your: "Perhaps more later". Have a heart ! We've got our plates full already ! To start with, your: "Imphal, Chittagong, Scwebo and Mandalay".

Chittagong I know well enough (roughly speaking, it's at the top of the Arakan, which runs down south to Akyab Island). There I operated (briefly) in early '43 with 110 (H) ; then in Arakan from mid-Nov'43 to Jun '44 with 8 (IAF).

Imphal is way up North; from Khumbirgram in Assam (Oct '43 - mid Nov'43) I was with 110 on that front. There we got bombed (and lost three airmen and an elephant). All the above on the Vultee Vengeance (unknown at the time and long forgotten now).

Mandalay (on the Road to which, according to Kipling: "The flying fishes play/ An' the dawn comes up like thunder out o' China 'crost the Bay"), and Scwebo (where is it ?) were well to the NE. Don't know the area.

Your: "In an attractive Burmese house,which the skill of a clean tablecloth and a couple of old car seats covered with mauve material and a homemade cabinet gramophone had made comfortable, I found the East African big game hunter and farmer, Major William Bird, of Rongai, now commanding the only infantry workshop on the Mandalay front".........

Your Dad had it good (but that is the mark of the Old Soldier - danger may be inescapable, but the man who endures unneccesary discomfort is a fool). And there's me, happy in my basha with an air-transportable charpoy, bedroll, a hurricane lamp and my tin box to sit on, thinking how much more well off I was than the poor 14th Army devils in the jungle 24/7 with a monsoon cape and a mess tin. Everything is relative, after all !

....."The locations mentioned may be familiar to you Danny but my father had the linguistic ability to converse with his artisans from various tribes of East Africa, namely. Nyasia's, Jaluo, Kikuyu and Kamba."

Dog-Hindi would get you along all over the subcontinent and most of the NW Burma where we were. Waste of time learning a local dialect: (I've read somewhere that there were more spoken languages in India than in the rest of the world together). Btw, what does "Nkosi" mean (Swahili, I presume ?) .......D.


MPN11,

Your "Noooooo".

Sorry old chap - but Yesssss !....... D.

Cheers both, Danny.

[lasernigel]

My Uncle Fred was shot down on the 21st October 1944. Know he is buried now in Taukkyan war cemetery. They didn't find his body until 1956.
He was with 42 Sqn but can't get on the RAF website link to found out exactly where he was based in Burma and what bridge he was bombing on his final flight.
My Father told me he went to Canada first training on Harvards, did his conversion to Hurricanes in South Africa. It was his 3rd mission. Trying through surviving relatives to find his log book.

[Danny42C]

Danny meets an old friend for the Last Time (Part II) and sings his Swan Song.

We went back up to the Approach room (it seemed SATCO had gone to lunch). Hanna explained that our bit of North Yorkshire was not familiar country to him, could we please give him radar surveillance from the time he took off until Teeside wanted him in to do his stuff ? Of course !, we'd stand him off well away from them, for other displays would be in the air in the vicinity at the same time, and I could provide collision warning.

What was more, I explained: we had a direct phone line to Teeside - I could keep this open for five minutes or so before his display time: and with their chap on the other end marshal him in almost to the second after the previous act. The crowd wouldn't even have time to bury their noses in their ice-creams ! And I showed him how it would be done. Radar was quiet, I took over the AR-1, moved my PPI trace centre over Teeside (about 14 miles NE, IIRC), and zoomed-in to maximum (the way we'd brought in our lost farmer one night years before).

SATCO was now back from lunch, approved our arrangement. CFI/OC(F) had no objection - weather was fine anyway. Radar would be off the air for half an hour for servicing, we told FIR. It worked like a charm. I had him on my headset on one ear, Teeside on the other. It was a piece of cake. Teeside got a once-in-a-lifetime display from the Spitfire; he came back to me, thanked us warmly and cleared airfield. I handed the AR-1 back to the watchkeeper, told CFI and FIR that Radar was back in business again. Lunch had come and gone by the board, but I didn't mind. A cup of tea tasted good (how could ATC possibly function without it ?)

Only a short one this time. Goodnight, all,

Danny42C.

One Good Turn Deserves Another !


But now a long Postscript ! This will be the last of my stories from ATC Leeming, and the last of the regular Posts of a "career" which started at a Recruiting Office in Liverpool 32 years earlier, ran through five years of globe-trotting war, three years fretting in civil life, and a final 23 years back in the Light Blue. I flew, off and on, for thirteen years. When that avenue was closed to me, my last 17 years in military Air Traffic Control were "Interesting Times" .

And now I feel that, like the Rump Parliament, I have "sat here too long for any good that I have been able to do", and it is time to bow out. I must admit at being rather surprised that I've lasted the Course. I've found all of it interesting and enjoyable, learned many things about people and places on the way, and tried to help others to catch a glimpse into a Past which is slipping out of living memory as we speak.

As I was told, almost at the very beginning: "You'll never get rich - but you'll meet an awful lot of nice people on the way" (first and foremost, my lovely Wife !) and so it has turned out. It would be invidious to mention names, so I'll simply thank all of you who have helped me in my problems and appreciated my writings. (And not forgetting our Moderators, who have been so patient with me on many occasions - and may yet have to be still more !)

Thanks ! Danny.

♪♪ "So long, farewell, auf Wiedersehen, Good-byee..." ♪♪

PPS: Still to come the final "wrap up", an amusing Addendum, and sporadic incursions onto Thread, from time to time, as the spirit moves me.

Danny42C.
..................................................THE END...........................................

[phil9560]

I know you're a bit elderly Danny but is there something we should know ?

Don't go just yet !!

[Typhoon93]

I've only just noticed this thread. It's going to take me a while to read through it all, although Danny, one question: how many G's could you pull in a Spitfire?

How did you deal with G-force in the cockpit compared to today's FJ pilots?

[Brian 48nav]

lasernigel

Jefford's book 'RAF Squadrons' shows 42 Squadron based at Tulihal , south of Imphal, from July 6th to 16th November 1944 and equipped with 2 marks of Hurricane, the IV and IIC.


I think 42 disbanded fairly recently and there may be a squadron association that could help with history.

[FantomZorbin]

Danny ... a Tour de Force indeed,
Thank you.

[Ian Burgess-Barber]

Respect is due.

Danny

Like so many here, may I give my thanks to you for your vivid recollections of your experiences in the RAF. For me, as one of the “Baby Boomers” (the luckiest generation to have ever lived on the planet), it has been a revelation, and indeed, a privilege to engage with you on this wonderful thread. I must also give my thanks to the Mods. for allowing me, a post-WW2 person ,who has never served in the military, to intrude here.


All of the initial and wonderful accounts prior to yours on the thread have been compulsive reading, but, your stories “chimed” so harmoniously with what befell my own relations. RAF Pilot father, (like you, U.S. trained, and served in India). Mum and stepfather, (Fleet Air Arm, both, like you, working with unappreciated Dive Bombers). Your memories have also brought their wartime experiences back to life for me.


Now it is time for you to sit in a place of honour, in the most comfortable corner seat of this crewroom in cyberspace, and we trust that, from time to time, as the spirit moves you, a broadside will be forthcoming to remind us of your ready wit, and forthright non-PC-ness!


Ian BB

[Nkosi]

Nkosi and other things

Danny,

Nkosi was always used as a term of respect to an older, more knowledgeable, person. Certainly within our farm when the farm laborers addressed my father or grandfather. I have adopted the term in remember to them I suppose. I also think it was a Swahili term.

South Africa, and SAA, my first civilian job. I was employed as an Aviation Technicien and introduced to maintenance of modern, B727 and B737 aircraft. After a few years I gained licences to enable me to certify for work done on both types and the PW JT 8D engines so installed. I ended up as the visiting Station Engineer, releaving the resident engineer all over the routes flown by SAA with those aircraft types.

As an aside, my maternal grandfather was in a Lincoln Infantry Regiment and took part in the Boer War. But interestingly enough he wrote a detailed diary of his experiences and places where action was seen. The main theme of the diary was lack of good food, and Lord Kitchiner featured in his grumbles! The diary was written in beautiful copperplate style of penmanship - and he was a private with limited education.

Perhaps more later

Nkosi

[MPN11]

Danny42C, may I add my thanks to those of others here for your fascinating and informative contributions to this bit of 'living history'. You have been so amusing and literate ... and seriously nocturnal (one can't help notice the times at which you post). Sharing your journey has been both a pleasure and a privilege.

I trust we will hear more from you occasionally: the completion of your personal tale doesn't completely excuse you from duties here, you know

Best wishes, Sir, and thanks again.

(It's a shame you never went into Area Radar, though!!)

Edit: I have also been asked to post thanks from the ATC "Old and Bold" community, where your ATC-related anecdotes have been preserved for posterity as well

[olympus]

Nkosi was always used as a term of respect to an older, more knowledgeable, person. Certainly within our farm when the farm laborers addressed my father or grandfather. I have adopted the term in remember to them I suppose. I also think it was a Swahili term.

According to Wikipedia "Nkosi Sikelel' iAfrika"* is "Lord Bless Africa" in the Xhosa language so presumably Nkosi means 'Lord'?

*and also the national anthems of Tanzania and South Africa.