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Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II

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Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II

Old 1st Feb 2016, 14:01
  #8161 (permalink)  
 
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Danny, an amazing story and an interesting site that your link takes us to. I see that it features the Fokker C.X of Finnish (squadron?) LLv 10's A? and B? Flights, which carried out 122 dive-bombing sorties out of a total of 135 in the Winter War '39-'40 against the Soviet Union. It lost 3 out of 8 aircraft with 6 fatalities. Yet another example of David versus Goliath!

http://juhansotahistoriasivut.weebly...visodassa.html

As to Anson N9732's exploits of 1 June 1940, I am inclined to believe the British account rather than the German one. If this sluggish old lady did indeed dispatch 2 of its 109's and survived, the humiliation of I/JG 20 would know no bounds. So for a start she becomes a more impressive Blenheim and the one lost 109 admitted had crash landed near Dunkirk so was unable to deny. The second one claimed by the Annie crew presumably went into the sea unseen, to be "lost" in a more acceptable combat later? I see that the 500 Squadron's Ansons were subject to a local mod carried out free of charge by a local engineering company to provide mounts for the side mounted .303 MGs. Was that which caught out the 109s (rather like the Defiants quadruple gun turret)? So a good trick but not one that you could reliably play twice.

http://juhansotahistoriasivut.weebly...vro-anson.html

Very glad that the LAC WOP got a DFM (together with his Sgt Nav). We had an ex LAC gunner on Battles on the 30 Sqn Assn. His complaint to his dying day was that the two officers up front got gongs, but all he got was told not to fire his gun so much that the barrel overheated when returning fire to attacking 109's!
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Old 1st Feb 2016, 20:48
  #8162 (permalink)  
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Chugalug (your #8162),
...As to Anson N9732's exploits of 1 June 1940, I am inclined to believe the British account rather than the German one...
Having said that, you have to admit that it does stretch credulity a bit, doesn't it ? It was worth gongs all round, I'd say !
...I see that the 500 Squadron's Ansons were subject to a local mod carried out free of charge by a local engineering company to provide mounts for the side mounted .303 MGs...
They would be Vickers "K" (drum fed) guns. But the wonderful thing was - what you could do with your aircraft in those days without asking permission from anybody ! In the same way we happily discarded the last section of our "greenhouses", and filed off the nuisance catch between throttle and mixture controls on our VVs. There was no comeback from Higher Authority. Nowadays you probably have to put a case up to be allowed to touch-up the paintwork.
...Very glad that the LAC WOP got a DFM (together with his Sgt Nav). We had an ex LAC gunner on Battles on the 30 Sqn Assn. His complaint to his dying day was that the two officers up front got gongs...
The most scandalous example of this is, of course, the award of the first (posthumous) RAF VCs of WWII to F/O Garland (pilot) and Sgt. Gray (observer) for their attack on the Albert Canal bridge with a "Battle". The Wop/AG (LAC Reynolds) got nothing (presumably, he was not part of the decision-taking, and so did not have to be brave to get killed !)

At least they are all buried together - there is equality in death.

You couldn't make it up. Danny.

Last edited by Danny42C; 1st Feb 2016 at 20:51. Reason: Typo.
 
Old 2nd Feb 2016, 07:44
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Danny,
nothing changes but the date. For one of the early Falklands Hercules missions the captain got the AFC, the Co, Nav, and the Eng the Queen's Commendation and the Loadmaster was, like the Battle gunner, ignored.
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Old 2nd Feb 2016, 19:59
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Rear crew, rear of the queue (when it comes to gongs).
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Old 2nd Feb 2016, 21:51
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Frank, the resident navigator and Senior Mess member told me quite frequently, "whenever things went well, the pilot was given the credit, when they went badly, the nav. always got the blame."
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Old 3rd Feb 2016, 00:04
  #8166 (permalink)  
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pulse1,

.....It's the Rich what gets the Pleasure,
It's the Poor what gets the Blame,
It's the same the Whole World Over -
Ain't it all a Bleedin' Shame ?.....


Regards to Frank !

Cheers, Danny.

Last edited by Danny42C; 3rd Feb 2016 at 00:10. Reason: Get Italics.
 
Old 3rd Feb 2016, 21:33
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I was privileged last night to attend a talk about Kamikase attacks on the British Pacific Fleet in 1945. Rather like 14th Army (the Forgotten Army) the British Pacific Fleet was largely unrecognised.
The author of The Kamikase Hunters had brought three pilots who had served in 1842 Sqn FAA flying Corsairs off HMS Formidable, and an observer who had flown in Avengers with the FAA. It was a fascinating evening, with the author, Will Iredale, introducing some aspect and then asked one or two of the veterans to give their recollections. They talked of the joy of flying the Corsair, the losses of their friends and cabin mates, the aftermath of the kamikaze attack on HMS Formidable (British carriers had armoured decks, compared to the wooden decked American carriers). They carried out attacks on the Japanese mainland, one of them was rescued from a bay off the coast by a US submarine acting as lifeguard. They told of a Seafire pilot shot down on the last day of the war, captured and executed.
One of the pilots later was serving with the New Zealand Army at one stage had a Japanese prisoner of war working party who also formed the fire section. Dealing with a fire (waiting for it to burn out) he asked the fire chief what he had done in the war - reply was that he was a Kamikase pilot, and that he had attended his funeral service with his parents, but fortunately for him the war ended 12 hours later.
One of them said he was 23 at the time, which would make him at least 96, but you wouldn't have guessed it. So, Danny, there are still a few of you around!
The FAA lost 105 aviators in this period, 20% of total FAA losses, and some squadrons were approaching or exceeding Bomber Command rates of loss.

A fascinating evening, a great privilege, and I believe it was recorded for posterity. Order for the book about to be placed with the south American river.
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Old 4th Feb 2016, 03:38
  #8168 (permalink)  
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topgas,

Yes, we were a good vintage ! Reminds me of the old Kamikase joke:

"What were you doing in the war ?"......"I was a Kamikase pilot"......."So how come you're still here ?"......"I was a chicken-kamikase-pilot !"

Danny.
 
Old 4th Feb 2016, 11:18
  #8169 (permalink)  
 
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A group of kamikaze pilots having a party. They were celebrating one hundred missions.
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Old 4th Feb 2016, 11:38
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topgas, a lot of what you were told chimed with the account written by Norman Hanson in his book Carrier Pilot. Same campaign, same aircraft, different ship, in this case HMS Illustrious. His story started off as so many have done here, but with different locations such as Pensacola and Opa Locka, and different aircraft such as the N3N-3, or the same such as the Harvard (though called the SNJ-3).

Then it was onto the Brewster Buffalo (F2A) before embarking for Britain in the Escort Carrier HMS Avenger for their next phase, the "Knife and Fork" course at RNC Greenwich. They were now RNVR officers who were famously celebrated in the saying:-

The RN are gentlemen trying to be sailors;
The RNR are sailors trying to be gentlemen;
The RNVR are neither trying to be both.

Next was RNAS St Merryn (Nr Padstow, N. Cornwall) with the Fairey Fulmar together with a change from inches of mercury to pounds of boost (the reverse path that was inflicted to we on the Hastings), and briefly Grumman Martlet, then "deck landings" on the runway, before trying it for real in the Fulmar on the training carrier HMS Argus.

Thus it was off to war and RNAS Dekheila as pax on MV Penrith Castle out of Milford Haven, via Freetown, Cape Town, the Gulf of Suez, to Port Said. Certainly the long way round! He had hoped for Hurricanes in the desert but got the Comms Flight of 775 Sqn, flying the Navy brass around in Fulmars. There were however goes in a Tiger Moth (disastrous) and a Gladiator (amidst a veritable amada of Swordfish, Albacores, Fulmars) in a simulated mass torpedo attack on a returning fleet of cruisers and destroyers from Malta. Other than dust ups with the RAF at Heliopolis and Fayid (seems he didn't rate us much), it was all too good to last. Off again by BOAC Liberator via El Adem, south of the Mareth Line, Algiers, and Lisbon (eying up Afrika Korps guys, also in ill fitting civilian suits, also going home). Home leave in Carlisle, back to St Merryn for time on Hurricanes and Spitfire Vs, more home leave, thence Liverpool and RMS Empress of Scotland for Newport News, thence USNAS Quonset Point as Senior Pilot 1833 Squadron, which was to be trained up on the Chance Vought Corsair, this time for a real war in the Far East...

Last edited by Chugalug2; 4th Feb 2016 at 12:09.
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Old 5th Feb 2016, 01:10
  #8171 (permalink)  
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Buried Treasure.

Chugalug (your #8171),
...The RN are gentlemen trying to be sailors;
The RNR are sailors trying to be gentlemen;
The RNVR are neither trying to be both...
Reminds me of the similar:
...Football is a gentlemen's game played by hooligans;
Rugby is a hooligan's game played by gentlemen;
Hurling is a hooligan's game played by hooligans...
The FAA
...which was to be trained up on the Chance Vought Corsair, this time for a real war in the Far East...
was poised to take part in a seaborne invasion of Burma in '45, but the operation was forestalled by VJ day. An RN escort carrier, with deck loaded with replacement brand new crated "Corsairs" was passing down the Malabar coast just offshore of us at the time. These were "Lend-Lease" supplies; the US didn't want them back; we didn't want to pay for them; so they were simply bulldozed over the side into the Arabian Sea (and are there yet, AFAIK - a better bet than mythical buried Spitfires in Burma !)

The Waste of War

Danny.
 
Old 5th Feb 2016, 17:03
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Burma or Malaya?

<<<< The FAA
Quote:
...........
was poised to take part in a seaborne invasion of Burma in '45, but the operation was forestalled by VJ day. >>>

Danny - surely by this time most of Burma was in our hands with only the narrow strip south of Rangoon still occupied by the enemy, and so it was invasion of the Malay peninsula that was imminent at the time of the Jap surrender.

However you may well be right, as the plan might have been to cut the isthmus at its narrowest part by invading what was left of Burma, thus isolating Malaya itself and Singapore from possible reinforcement. AFAIK our never-utilised plans for whatever was intended have never been revealed and it would be interesting to know exactly what they were; according to what little I can remember from the July-August 1945 rumour mills, the invasion would have been concentrated in the Penang-Butterworth area but we all know what tosh rumours can be.

Anyone out there able to provide enlightenment?

harrym
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Old 5th Feb 2016, 18:10
  #8173 (permalink)  
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Harry: Whilst I can't add anything at all as to the potential invasion area, I'm aware that squadrons of 4 Gp, Bomber Command, were transferred to Transport Command on 7 May 1945, as the war in Europe ended. They began to train on Dakotas and acquired a range of parachute-dropping techniques, prior to deployment to the India. That could well suggest that whatever invasion plans existed may well have included an airborne element. VJ Day put paid to that need, but they still went East, initially to provide airlift for repatriation.
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Old 5th Feb 2016, 19:49
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harrym and ICM,

I may have confused matters by using the word "Burma" loosely (as we did) to apply to everything East of the Bay of Bengal, although we might be referring to India, Burma, Siam or Malaya !

Operation "Zipper" (see Wiki) was intended to go ashore at Port Swettenham (Malaya), and was at sea when Japan surrendered. But, prior to that, there were dark rumours about another attempt (see my p.251 #5051) at the same time, which did not go well. But, as you rightly say: "We all know what tosh rumours can be".

Danny..
 
Old 6th Feb 2016, 08:37
  #8175 (permalink)  
 
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Invasion of Malaya

Grand-daughter sitting in Romsey so I'm away from my 'library' and unable to check my statement below.

I'm pretty sure Operation Zipper, the planned re-taking of Malaya, was centred on the small ( at least then ) town of Morib on the west coast, which IIRC is WSW of KL. I guess it was chosen because it was free of mangrove swamp, so no impedance for landing craft and maybe because it would have been very rural in 1945, and there would have been fewer casualties among the civilian population when the Commonwealth navies 'softened' the area up prior to troops making a landfall.

I guess information about likely sites and disposition of Japanese forces had been sent by agents from Force 136 ( ?? ) who were holed up in the jungle. A thoroughly good book to read is F Spencer Chapman's 'The jungle is neutral".

In 1991 Mrs 48N and I took our bikes to Singapore and cycled some way up the west coast and night-stopped at the golf club resthouse in Morib.
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Old 7th Feb 2016, 21:52
  #8176 (permalink)  
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Better Late than Never !

Union Jack,

Jack,

Mea Culpa ! (and thanks for the PM). Should have replied earlier to your #126 on the "Dumbing Down..." Thread (quoting from my #123), but, as I told Wrathmonk, I'm only a casual visitor there. But yes - Air Marshal Sir Thomas Williams had been far more than a "kindly old" gentleman in his day. One more bullet hole in his "Camel", and that might have been the end of his story.

From the standpoint of a 21-year old, mid-forties seemed then like advanced old age - just as, from where I am now, 70-year olds are nobbut lads in my book. How perceptions change !

Cheers, Danny.
 
Old 7th Feb 2016, 23:21
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One more bullet hole in his "Camel", and that might have been the end of his story. - Danny

But fortunately for him, subsequently for you, and ultimately for us, the rest is indeed history.....

Jack
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Old 11th Feb 2016, 01:39
  #8178 (permalink)  
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"Ah yes - I remember it well"

Through the good offices of our mutual friend Petet, who is well known on this Thread, I've been able to gain sight of copies of the whole wartime F.540 (Operational Record Book) for No. 1340 (Special Duty) Flight, Cannanore. This includes the ACSEA Formation Order No.256 on 6.10.44 until my final entry on 1.3.46. In that I wrote: "Wing Commander Edmondes, on his return from Delhi, made it definite that the Flight's work was finished, and it is anticipated that withdrawal or disbandment will occur in the very near future......the future of Cannanore airstrip is unknown".

You may recall that I've Posted an account of my time there from my appointment in March '45 (p.154 #3071) to the end on 31.3.46.,when I handed over to Flt.Lt. N.A.Bury. ("...The time frame needs some working out now. I must have left in the first few days of May..." p.162 #3237).

Naturally, the first thing I did was to compare the account of what I'd written 70 years before (for most of the F.540 is in my own hand - including the six months before I took over - my predecessor, "Red" McInnis, hadn't bothered !) with what I've Posted here, and the result is shocking ! Not that anything contradicts my Posts - but rather huge gaps have clearly opened up in my memory. For a single example, I've simply Posted that, during the '45 monsoon, we were detached to and flew from the RNAS Sulur (Coimbatore), as it had tarmac airfield surfaces - nothing more.

It now appears that, for several weeks before and after my arrival, the first plan had been to detach us to RAF Madura (now "Madurai"), which is 400 miles SE of the Porkal/Kumbla test sites CDRE used (on the Malabar Coast). This makes absolutely no sense to me. Perhaps they thought that the CDRE would not require our services at all until the dry weather in November. In fact (as it happened) there were plenty of dry days in September and October when we could have worked at Porkal (but not from Cannanore, as that was still waterlogged). If we'd been at Madura, we would have been far out of range, and would have had to refuel (both ways) at Sulur, to reach the Porkal ranges.

But the point is that I had known (and written) all about this at the time, and my log shows a "Madura and return" on 5th May (obviously a recce), but even now I have no recollection of this plan or the flight - and cannot bring any details to mind. It is as if the whole thing has been blocked out of memory, and cannot be recovered, even with the evidence (in my own handrwriting) staring me in the face ! In short the dreaded "Carlstrom Syndrome" (Chugalug will remember) strikes again. And there are several other experiences of a similar nature.

Conversely, many of the things I know had happened are not recorded there at all. Of course, items like our unofficial (and illicit !) self-"conversions" onto the P-47 Thunderbolt (which we only had on loan - and Lord help me if anything had gone wrong !) would not be put in writing. But other interesting bits (like the Bomb Scow [and Chain] saga, our [narrowly averted] attempt to head-butt Fort St.Angelo with our Mosquito, and the s/hawk I took in the engine on take-off) do not appear. But in these cases, there is nothing wrong with my memory. Rather, it would seem that our (all right, my) attitude to the F.540 was: "write a few lines and send the damn' thing off - we can't be bothered with it !"

Reverting to my "Carlstrom Syndrome", do others suffer from this memory block ? Remember, it's not a case of just forgetting, but of a complete inability to recall, even when presented with a photograph (or written or other incontrovertible evidence) of an event. It as if most of the past has been totally erased from memory, and what we fondly recall of our memories is not a continuum, but rather a succession of bright "flashes" against an inpenetrable black background, rather like the "snapshots" in an old album of a summer holiday long ago.

Danny42C.
 
Old 11th Feb 2016, 07:05
  #8179 (permalink)  
 
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Danny,
your experience of the F540 does not surprise me. On all of the squadrons I have served the F540 was usually the secondary duty of a very junior officer. Naturally this task tended to be done very much 'ex post facto'.
This of course would almost certainly ensure that the F540 was not the totally accurate record that many assume them to be.

Last edited by ancientaviator62; 11th Feb 2016 at 09:42. Reason: spelling
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Old 11th Feb 2016, 07:58
  #8180 (permalink)  
 
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I had the misfortune to be the "Designated Scribe" as, contrary to official policy, the task went with my appointment instead of to the officer best suited to the role. However, I had no opportunity to skimp on the input, as AOC MATO took a keen interest in 'wot were written'.

I can only recall endless pages of stultifying and repetitious prose, with items such as "On 23 January 1971, Wing Commander Operations 1, Wg Cdr A. B. See, visited Headquarters Strike Command, RAF High Wycombe, to discuss xxxxxx." Future historians will, undoubtedly, be pleased to know that
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