Meteor Accidents - 1953
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Hi Clifford, wonder what part of the family you are? - are you to do with Jim, Tom Coulston's brother? Roger ended up in Devon, at Totnes, where his parents ran a boys' home called Critchel Hostel (now demolished). You obviously know a lot about him, but maybe you need to know more? Will try and contact you through this website. Be assured, we care very much about Roger and have been trying to find out as much as possible for many years. This new internet interest has re-opened it all, and we are very pleased. Return to other sites you have visited and you will dig up more info. pictures, etc., Hope we will see you one day.
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Meteor
Hi Pruners ... I've posted on the subject elsewhere, but I'm asking if any guys/gals on here were present on the night of February 12th 1954 when 209 AFS at Weston Zoyland lost four Meteors with two pilots killed when they were diverted to Merryfield due to fog at WZ.
I was flying a Mk7 that night and was held overhead at 20,000 feet while the blocked runway was being cleared. I eventually managed to force land on the airfield grass alongside the runways goosenecks.
A couple of years ago I wrote a piece for the LOOP aviation newspaper entitled ... "The Night it Rained Meteors." I've now been asked to do a further article on the subject and would welcome hearing from any personnel who were on duty or flying that night ... ATC, ground engineers, pilots etc. Reply here or e-mail: [email protected]. Many thanks for any information. DRK.
I was flying a Mk7 that night and was held overhead at 20,000 feet while the blocked runway was being cleared. I eventually managed to force land on the airfield grass alongside the runways goosenecks.
A couple of years ago I wrote a piece for the LOOP aviation newspaper entitled ... "The Night it Rained Meteors." I've now been asked to do a further article on the subject and would welcome hearing from any personnel who were on duty or flying that night ... ATC, ground engineers, pilots etc. Reply here or e-mail: [email protected]. Many thanks for any information. DRK.
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Don't know if this is myth but I believe that more pilots were killed doing asymmetric practice in the meatbox than were killed during actual single engine failures. Those stats seem unbelievable now. I seem to remember the RAF lost something like 850 Meteors and 350 pilots flying them.
Was the Meatbox that bad an aircraft or were flying standards a lot poorer?
Was the Meatbox that bad an aircraft or were flying standards a lot poorer?
Thread Starter
Actually
No WA855 - sorry.
WT
Dear Warmtoast, please look through your b&w pictures of Meteors at Biggin, and see if you have WA855? Would love a copy!
WT
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thing,
I believe what you heard about the Meteor 7 was true - I heard the same story, going through the Conversion at 203 AFS, Driffield, in early '50.
But, the (incredible) practice at first was to do asymmetric training with one flamed out (so you'd "burned your boats", if the approach went wrong there was no way out or back - and no "bang" seat either).
In the version told to me, it was an AM statistician who first noticed that that the accident rate from this practice exceeded the failiure rate of Derwent engines. When this became known, sanity returned; (thankfully, by the time I came along) practices were done with an idling engine - and that was bad enough !
A contributory factor in the carnage was that the "new boys" had been trained on Oxfords on their previous SFTSs before they came to AFS. They weren't given a fair crack of the whip. (This continued to '53 to my knowledge).
We "old men" were much better off (I'd flown Harvard, Hurricane, Spitfire and P47 -Thunderbolt, beside my Vengeance dive-bomber) - and it wasn't easy for me.
My opinion (on very little experience): the Meteor was a pussycat on two or one above 200 kts - much below that (particularly on one) it was all kinds of bitch. The Vampire was a pussycat - always.
IMHO, there's the major cause of the training accident rate in those years.
Danny.
"The past is a foreign country - they do things differently there"
I believe what you heard about the Meteor 7 was true - I heard the same story, going through the Conversion at 203 AFS, Driffield, in early '50.
But, the (incredible) practice at first was to do asymmetric training with one flamed out (so you'd "burned your boats", if the approach went wrong there was no way out or back - and no "bang" seat either).
In the version told to me, it was an AM statistician who first noticed that that the accident rate from this practice exceeded the failiure rate of Derwent engines. When this became known, sanity returned; (thankfully, by the time I came along) practices were done with an idling engine - and that was bad enough !
A contributory factor in the carnage was that the "new boys" had been trained on Oxfords on their previous SFTSs before they came to AFS. They weren't given a fair crack of the whip. (This continued to '53 to my knowledge).
We "old men" were much better off (I'd flown Harvard, Hurricane, Spitfire and P47 -Thunderbolt, beside my Vengeance dive-bomber) - and it wasn't easy for me.
My opinion (on very little experience): the Meteor was a pussycat on two or one above 200 kts - much below that (particularly on one) it was all kinds of bitch. The Vampire was a pussycat - always.
IMHO, there's the major cause of the training accident rate in those years.
Danny.
"The past is a foreign country - they do things differently there"
Last edited by Danny42C; 20th Feb 2014 at 23:45. Reason: Afterthought.
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As you say Danny, the past is a different country. My uncle was killed in a training accident in an Albemarle. Apparently there was a 'dead man's spot' on take off where if you lost a donk basically you bought it. Which is exactly what happened to him. I heard the Beaufort was a bit of a pig on one donk as well.
Do a Hover - it avoids G
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thing
What you are talking about with your uncle is the airspeed gap (in those days) between normal unstick speed and the higher speed at which full power on one engine and nothing on the other could be controlled by full rudder and a bit of aileron (this speed was often called single engined safety speed now V min control air - Vmca - with today's certification paperwork).
I believe with some WWII types it could be as long as 30 secs before this extra speed could be built up. The only solution with such types was to immediatley shut the good throttle and glide in straiight ahead. Any delay and it was likely the aircraft would roll uncontrollably into the ground.
Today airliners have a Vmcs that is below unstick speed (you will be pleased to know)
What you are talking about with your uncle is the airspeed gap (in those days) between normal unstick speed and the higher speed at which full power on one engine and nothing on the other could be controlled by full rudder and a bit of aileron (this speed was often called single engined safety speed now V min control air - Vmca - with today's certification paperwork).
I believe with some WWII types it could be as long as 30 secs before this extra speed could be built up. The only solution with such types was to immediatley shut the good throttle and glide in straiight ahead. Any delay and it was likely the aircraft would roll uncontrollably into the ground.
Today airliners have a Vmcs that is below unstick speed (you will be pleased to know)
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Meteors & pressurisation .... or lack thereof
A chum of mine in the USMC served on exchange at RAF Horsham St Faiths then RAF Coltishall. We had a useful Station Flight where we could get extra flying on aircraft ranging from an Anson to a Meteor NF-14.
My chum wrote yesterday in response to this Pprune Meteor reminiscence blog
This raises an interesting question:what other types of jet aircraft did the RAF have in service that had NO pressurisation?
My chum wrote yesterday in response to this Pprune Meteor reminiscence blog
I remember well the Meteor 7 and 8…I liked the climb and turn in them! The 7 was prehistoric with no pressurization! They were both fun to fly and had good climb rate…
In those early days I checked into the 2nd Marine Aircraft Wing at Cherry Point, NC in 1957 as a 2nd Lt right out of flight school…In 1956 they’d lost 80 aircraft but I forget how many pilots…All the US air forces must have lost close to 1,000 between them that year! SF
In those early days I checked into the 2nd Marine Aircraft Wing at Cherry Point, NC in 1957 as a 2nd Lt right out of flight school…In 1956 they’d lost 80 aircraft but I forget how many pilots…All the US air forces must have lost close to 1,000 between them that year! SF
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What you are talking about with your uncle is the airspeed gap (in those days) between normal unstick speed and the higher speed at which full power on one engine and nothing on the other could be controlled by full rudder and a bit of aileron (this speed was often called single engined safety speed now V min control air - Vmca - with today's certification paperwork).
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Research into the poor safety record of Meteors
New boy here - having spent much time idling over this forum and reading about experiences etc it strikes me this would make a decent documentary programme for TV.
Does anyone know if this has ever been spoken about or suggested previously ?
I am about to start reading Nick Carter's "Meteor Eject!" with a view to creating a slideshow/filmshow for my local air cadets (my daughter is a cadet) and at this early stage I will do well to keep it below an hour with all your fantastic anecdotes.
My personal history ? I was an Armourer at Brawdy 78-82 and worked on Mr Catt's Meteor and marvelled at the simplicity of a primitive Martin Baker seat - and by the sounds of it some of you would have been very grateful for one in the early Meteors !
I have some contacts in the TV world so will try my luck at pitching a documentary of sorts.
This one stat should surely get them interested:
"1953 was a bad year, 486 aircraft lost with 334 fatalities" - from earlier in the thread.
Thank you for sharing these amazing stories.
Does anyone know if this has ever been spoken about or suggested previously ?
I am about to start reading Nick Carter's "Meteor Eject!" with a view to creating a slideshow/filmshow for my local air cadets (my daughter is a cadet) and at this early stage I will do well to keep it below an hour with all your fantastic anecdotes.
My personal history ? I was an Armourer at Brawdy 78-82 and worked on Mr Catt's Meteor and marvelled at the simplicity of a primitive Martin Baker seat - and by the sounds of it some of you would have been very grateful for one in the early Meteors !
I have some contacts in the TV world so will try my luck at pitching a documentary of sorts.
This one stat should surely get them interested:
"1953 was a bad year, 486 aircraft lost with 334 fatalities" - from earlier in the thread.
Thank you for sharing these amazing stories.
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meteorian,
Welcome aboard ! If you want some really good old tales, try "Gaining a RAF Pilots Brevet in WWII" on this page at the moment.
Your: "and by the sounds of it some of you would have been very grateful for one in the early Meteors !" Too true ! (particularly in the T7, with that side-opening canopy with the "Georgian windows").
D.
Welcome aboard ! If you want some really good old tales, try "Gaining a RAF Pilots Brevet in WWII" on this page at the moment.
Your: "and by the sounds of it some of you would have been very grateful for one in the early Meteors !" Too true ! (particularly in the T7, with that side-opening canopy with the "Georgian windows").
D.
Last edited by Danny42C; 3rd Mar 2015 at 00:45. Reason: Typo.
I do have some photos of a Meteor formation team in the 53/54 period. My father was a pilot and instructor at Middleton and also flew in this formation team. I'll try and copy the photos to this website
Dave Morton
Dave Morton
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Re the structural failures in the Meteor, I was once told that it all went back to a particular sortie at the OCU.
This was in days before fatigue meters were in use. Apparently one sortie involved winding the aircraft up as fast as you could at a couple of thousand feet then just sticking it on it's ear and pulling as hard as you could. Most 'g' meters simply stopped at @6g so didn't show the g being pulled in the manoeuvre, when fatigue meters became more common it was found that it was not uncommon for 10g to be recorded. If pilots were still doing this on the Sqns, then airframes became severely overstressed without any monitoring.
I've no personal knowledge of this but the story was told to me by an old Meteor driver when I was checking out on the T7.
This was in days before fatigue meters were in use. Apparently one sortie involved winding the aircraft up as fast as you could at a couple of thousand feet then just sticking it on it's ear and pulling as hard as you could. Most 'g' meters simply stopped at @6g so didn't show the g being pulled in the manoeuvre, when fatigue meters became more common it was found that it was not uncommon for 10g to be recorded. If pilots were still doing this on the Sqns, then airframes became severely overstressed without any monitoring.
I've no personal knowledge of this but the story was told to me by an old Meteor driver when I was checking out on the T7.
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I last flew a Meteor in 1969, but had continuously driven them since AFS in 1951. As I often checked guys out on the beast, in later years I would point out my personal max speed of 400kts, not the 520kts described in Pilot's Notes. My limit was because of the frightening creaks and groans the beast could make when doing anything out of the ordinary e.g. in that quiet moment at the top of a stall turn with the throttles closed and the aircraft yawing. And there seemed to be no requirement to go particularly fast! (I seem to remember that 455 was the Vampire limit). .
Evertonian
On a side note, and totally off topic, can I just say it was a pleasure to watch the Meteor flying on the weekend. I'd never seen one doing its stuff live before...
Sorry, carry on!
Sorry, carry on!
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Intakes ?
Notice Meteors can have 2 different size intake "orifices" I had it explained that the small diameter intakes were for low level operations etc (PR ?) and the large diameter intakes were for general use and high altitude can anyone confirm ? and how did it affect the aircraft`s handling and performance on the different intakes, also did squadrons hold both types for different sorties ?, PH.