VULCAN 607
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VULCAN 607
Has anyone read the new book VULCAN 607 by Roland White? (Bantam Books)
I have just finished the book and enjoyed it.
Was it really as touch and go as written about? Were parts really begged, stolen and borrowed as described to get three fit Vulcans ready for the op?
Much respect to all involved.
I have just finished the book and enjoyed it.
Was it really as touch and go as written about? Were parts really begged, stolen and borrowed as described to get three fit Vulcans ready for the op?
Much respect to all involved.
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Not read the book as yet, but i know there was a huge problem trying to source IFR probes, same type as Herc and Nimrod I believe. XL361 preserved in RAF Goose Bay had hers 'borrowed' for the campaign.
Last edited by peppermint_jam; 29th Jun 2006 at 19:17.
Thread Starter
Great book.
I remember listening to Aberporth Range control on freq X as they were trailing the shrike fit. Never heard such a rushed test!
There was lots being fired at the time by lots of interesting stuff both floating and flying!!
Is it true that the Vulcan didn't have a fuel jettison system?
I remember listening to Aberporth Range control on freq X as they were trailing the shrike fit. Never heard such a rushed test!
There was lots being fired at the time by lots of interesting stuff both floating and flying!!
Is it true that the Vulcan didn't have a fuel jettison system?
Last edited by jimgriff; 29th Jun 2006 at 20:54.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Originally Posted by peppermint_jam
Not read the book as yet, but i know there was a huge problem trying to source IFR probes, same type as Herc and Nimrod I believe. XL361 preserved in RAF Goose Bay had hers 'borrowed' for the campaign.
All 3 were emergency operational requirements. The probe tip of course is a standard fitment to fit the NATO standard basket.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Further to the lack of fuel jettison.
Initially this was perceived as a problem as the maximum landing weight was 140000 lbs which meant that an aircraft getting airborne with 70000 lb of fuel had to burn off about 30000 lbs which could take between 2-3 hours.
This led to the fatal crash at Cottesmore when the aircraft flew a number of circuits 'burning off' which it had a bombbay overheat. As the bombbay temperature increased the elevon control became increasingly limited until control was eventually lost at a weight very near 140000 lbs. I think they were actually on the final circuit.
After that, re-reading the clearance documents it was apparent that the aircraft was actually cleared to land at any cleared take-off weight. Only if the aircraft was landed above 140000 lbs then it would have to undergo heavy landing checks. It was the avoidance of heavy landing checks that led to many problems.
Before we condemn the wheels then in the light of today's mores, we must remember this was at the height of the cold war and the station commander's mission was to ensure that he could met his generation requirements in as short a time as possible. Typically it was to generate 24 aircraft to 15 minutes readiness in a time as short as 5 hours.
The last thing a stn cdr wanted was a jet unnecessarily in the shed. With the handover of the QRA element to the RN this knife edge posture was slowly relaxed.
Initially this was perceived as a problem as the maximum landing weight was 140000 lbs which meant that an aircraft getting airborne with 70000 lb of fuel had to burn off about 30000 lbs which could take between 2-3 hours.
This led to the fatal crash at Cottesmore when the aircraft flew a number of circuits 'burning off' which it had a bombbay overheat. As the bombbay temperature increased the elevon control became increasingly limited until control was eventually lost at a weight very near 140000 lbs. I think they were actually on the final circuit.
After that, re-reading the clearance documents it was apparent that the aircraft was actually cleared to land at any cleared take-off weight. Only if the aircraft was landed above 140000 lbs then it would have to undergo heavy landing checks. It was the avoidance of heavy landing checks that led to many problems.
Before we condemn the wheels then in the light of today's mores, we must remember this was at the height of the cold war and the station commander's mission was to ensure that he could met his generation requirements in as short a time as possible. Typically it was to generate 24 aircraft to 15 minutes readiness in a time as short as 5 hours.
The last thing a stn cdr wanted was a jet unnecessarily in the shed. With the handover of the QRA element to the RN this knife edge posture was slowly relaxed.
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Honington (where I was at the time) had taken delivery of one of the 'fire dump' Vulcans and engineers were round quick smart to whip off the refuelling probe for a Nimrod or C130 or whatever.
As an aside, the remaining fuel in the Vulcan (minimums for landing) was used to keep the heating plant of the swimming pool going for quite a while. Then the OC Supply Sqn realised that if he kept putting fuel in the top then it could be legally used from the bottom as "waste" fuel. That kept the pool warm for another couple of years until a more anally retentive OC Supply was posted in. Then they burnt the Vulcan
As an aside, the remaining fuel in the Vulcan (minimums for landing) was used to keep the heating plant of the swimming pool going for quite a while. Then the OC Supply Sqn realised that if he kept putting fuel in the top then it could be legally used from the bottom as "waste" fuel. That kept the pool warm for another couple of years until a more anally retentive OC Supply was posted in. Then they burnt the Vulcan
High weight landings
I remember taking off from Waddo with full fuel of 98+16 (98% in the main tanks and 16,000 lbs in the bomb bay tanks). Just after take off (passing about 3,000 feet) there was a strong smell of burning. I looked behind me (I was the AEO) to see smoke and little flames coming from the black boxes (probably be called LRUs or LRIs these days) under the co pilot's seat. As I called it we bunted over the top as we did a visual circuit to land. Dont know what the landing weight was, but must have been as close to the maximum as you could get.
We stopped with not a lot of runway to spare and as we got out we chocked the nosewheel with the nav plotter (or was it his nav bag - the memory is going), and ran away bravely. We were about number 4 in a long stream of aircraft off to fly an exercise. Think we disrupted the stream. Oh well.
Shadwell - getting older by the minute.
We stopped with not a lot of runway to spare and as we got out we chocked the nosewheel with the nav plotter (or was it his nav bag - the memory is going), and ran away bravely. We were about number 4 in a long stream of aircraft off to fly an exercise. Think we disrupted the stream. Oh well.
Shadwell - getting older by the minute.
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Or getting airborne after a night of heavy rain and on rotate a torrent water pouring down onto the flying control start/stop panel?
Did a very fast vis cct to land at max AUW with stream.
When the panel was stripped, substantial quantity of water ran out. Sheer luck that no short circuits occurred or....
Did a very fast vis cct to land at max AUW with stream.
When the panel was stripped, substantial quantity of water ran out. Sheer luck that no short circuits occurred or....
I remember they came in with a mod to stop water getting into the PFCU control panel. Dont think it was too expensive to implement but the research and clearance by Boscombe must have cost a fortune.
What was the mod? A piece of polythene sheeting placed strategically so that the water or river that leaked through the canopy would flow off into other nooks and crannies unknown. Often wonder where it ended up.
On the subject of "water". Remember guesting with a crew on an exercise where we carried a shape. We went airborne for ages, and Shadwells bladder overfull caption light came on. As I needed to empty it, I used the pee tube. Much relief after fumbling about in the flaps of my immersion suit. Thought no more of it. When we landed, as was the practise Nav Radar has to slide down the door to let the chief in to the NLZ. OOps Shadwells pee tube had leaked (split not a badly placed bung) and the contents of my bladder had found the lowest point - around the door seal - and frozen, but was now melting. I couldnt leave my panel (honest) so the nav radar had to be the one to get out. As in the best traditions of aircrew and not wanting to swim in my pi$$, he improvised. To the fore comes the plastic sheet used to cover the PFCU control panel. Speaking to the chief later, he was flabbergasted to see this officer in his immersion suit come toboganning out of a Vulcan on a plastic sheet followed by a river. The plotter (Kev Weekes God rest his soul), almost wet himself with laughter. However, his mirth was short lived when he realised that the pi$$ on its way to the door had travelled via the base of his nav bag! We must have been flying slightly one wing down, because my nav bag was completely dry. Ho hum!
Shadwell
What was the mod? A piece of polythene sheeting placed strategically so that the water or river that leaked through the canopy would flow off into other nooks and crannies unknown. Often wonder where it ended up.
On the subject of "water". Remember guesting with a crew on an exercise where we carried a shape. We went airborne for ages, and Shadwells bladder overfull caption light came on. As I needed to empty it, I used the pee tube. Much relief after fumbling about in the flaps of my immersion suit. Thought no more of it. When we landed, as was the practise Nav Radar has to slide down the door to let the chief in to the NLZ. OOps Shadwells pee tube had leaked (split not a badly placed bung) and the contents of my bladder had found the lowest point - around the door seal - and frozen, but was now melting. I couldnt leave my panel (honest) so the nav radar had to be the one to get out. As in the best traditions of aircrew and not wanting to swim in my pi$$, he improvised. To the fore comes the plastic sheet used to cover the PFCU control panel. Speaking to the chief later, he was flabbergasted to see this officer in his immersion suit come toboganning out of a Vulcan on a plastic sheet followed by a river. The plotter (Kev Weekes God rest his soul), almost wet himself with laughter. However, his mirth was short lived when he realised that the pi$$ on its way to the door had travelled via the base of his nav bag! We must have been flying slightly one wing down, because my nav bag was completely dry. Ho hum!
Shadwell
Even with 98+16 you would be well short of max weight - unless you were carrying 21000 of bombs as well.
I was told some rather interesting story of a jet losing 2 at Scampton in earlier days - with 98+A&E and a wet Blue Tool. Fortunately on RW23 - God bless the Lincoln Edge!
I was told some rather interesting story of a jet losing 2 at Scampton in earlier days - with 98+A&E and a wet Blue Tool. Fortunately on RW23 - God bless the Lincoln Edge!
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On the IFR probe nozzles for the Vulcans in Corporate, they were standard Mk8, FR Ltd nozzles as used throughout the RAF. The fitting to the tubing on the nose of the aircraft was different however and initially caused major problems with considerable fuel splash flaming out engines and creating vision difficulties when in contact. Thanks to prompt work by FR reps, working all hours and with a can do attitude which at other times can be hard to find in British industry, the cure was found. IFRR it involved fitting extra shims of a particular shape twix nozzle and probe as detailed in long lost drawings. Another example of the "oh we will never need to do that again" attitude which Corporate exposed.
And the "We won't need to do that again" lesson appears not to have been learned with the end of the Canberra PR9's unique recce capabilities!
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VULCAN PROBES
The problem wasn't getting probes for the Vulcans, it was getting probes for everything else (Nimrods and Hercs mainly). They even had the cheek to rob some of our aircraft at Wad.
Ever tried taxying a Vulcan without a probe?
Not recommended for the faint-hearted.
Ever tried taxying a Vulcan without a probe?
Not recommended for the faint-hearted.
Reading Vulcan 607 as I type and I am really pi$$ed off that I left the Vulcan force with a captaincy high-rec in my back pocket to go to the F4 at just the wrong moment! I would have been kicking the boss's door down to have been on Black Buck!
A couple of obvious points - no-one seems to have thought of non-dimensional engine rpm N/(sqrt T abs) - or the effect of high ISA dev on thrust and consequent fuel consumption to maintain the required thrust.. Presumably because it had been years since the Vs had operated at high AUW and high ISA dev at the same time?
Even (as Arters might agree) the routine UK fuel burn at high weight was mis-briefed by some utter chair-polishing ar$e at Bawtry ('Caligula'?). Yet we had learned this years earlier and the crew I was one used to modify our climb to height from Scampton to Goose before the increased burn at higher AoA kicked in. So we climbed at max chat to 390, then waited as long as possible before the climb to 430 approaching the ocean. Always saved us at least 2000lb!
The book has an immediacy which is well-researched and truly reflective of the times. Yes, crews got pi$$ed, smoked fags and swore - and some were perhaps gravitationally disadvantaged. But the whole V-force got together to conduct Black Buck - and it succeeded without all the stupidity of the present day 'yellow jacket' embuggerances. It was the sort of RAF I wanted to join and I'm glad I did. But that has now gone for ever and I'm not sure that, given the opportunity again, I would join today's RAF.
I've just spent a day with people agonizing over how to relabel a new tanker aircraft's audio control panels. Should it be V/UHF C instead of U-VHF 3 or what? And how do we label the back seat V/UHF radio......
Not quite the same as the likes of the Black Buck planners 'winging' the Wideawake recovery plan after all the Victors were coming home on fumes.....
A couple of obvious points - no-one seems to have thought of non-dimensional engine rpm N/(sqrt T abs) - or the effect of high ISA dev on thrust and consequent fuel consumption to maintain the required thrust.. Presumably because it had been years since the Vs had operated at high AUW and high ISA dev at the same time?
Even (as Arters might agree) the routine UK fuel burn at high weight was mis-briefed by some utter chair-polishing ar$e at Bawtry ('Caligula'?). Yet we had learned this years earlier and the crew I was one used to modify our climb to height from Scampton to Goose before the increased burn at higher AoA kicked in. So we climbed at max chat to 390, then waited as long as possible before the climb to 430 approaching the ocean. Always saved us at least 2000lb!
The book has an immediacy which is well-researched and truly reflective of the times. Yes, crews got pi$$ed, smoked fags and swore - and some were perhaps gravitationally disadvantaged. But the whole V-force got together to conduct Black Buck - and it succeeded without all the stupidity of the present day 'yellow jacket' embuggerances. It was the sort of RAF I wanted to join and I'm glad I did. But that has now gone for ever and I'm not sure that, given the opportunity again, I would join today's RAF.
I've just spent a day with people agonizing over how to relabel a new tanker aircraft's audio control panels. Should it be V/UHF C instead of U-VHF 3 or what? And how do we label the back seat V/UHF radio......
Not quite the same as the likes of the Black Buck planners 'winging' the Wideawake recovery plan after all the Victors were coming home on fumes.....
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Pontius Nav, you say "This led to the fatal crash at Cottesmore when the aircraft flew a number of circuits 'burning off' which it had a bombbay overheat. As the bombbay temperature increased the elevon control became increasingly limited until control was eventually lost at a weight very near 140000 lbs. I think they were actually on the final circuit".
Not so. The only fatal AT Cottesmore was a turbine disc shooting through the bomb bay after a 'touch and go' and taking the control runs with it. I, with others, spent days looking for the disc in fields. Never did find it.
Aircraft was XM604. January 30th 1968. Two pilots survived, four in back lost. Crew Chief aboard
Not so. The only fatal AT Cottesmore was a turbine disc shooting through the bomb bay after a 'touch and go' and taking the control runs with it. I, with others, spent days looking for the disc in fields. Never did find it.
Aircraft was XM604. January 30th 1968. Two pilots survived, four in back lost. Crew Chief aboard
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As a 1946 born boomer who grew up with the Observers Book of Aircraft and besotted still with the "V" Bombers
, what is this "probe" and why is "Ever tried taxying a Vulcan without" one "Not recommended for the faint-hearted". ?
Aaaaah the old BBCTV B & W Farnborough Air Show features from 1959? on in Oz, from a fixed reference point in my yoof watched the development of all these and other types.
Closest I got to one was a Vulcan that came down to Perth for the Empire Games in 1962 for the opening by HM. We lived next door to the stadium and the plan view sight as it pulled straight up over the stadium during the practise runs was awe inspiring.
, what is this "probe" and why is "Ever tried taxying a Vulcan without" one "Not recommended for the faint-hearted". ?Aaaaah the old BBCTV B & W Farnborough Air Show features from 1959? on in Oz, from a fixed reference point in my yoof watched the development of all these and other types.
Closest I got to one was a Vulcan that came down to Perth for the Empire Games in 1962 for the opening by HM. We lived next door to the stadium and the plan view sight as it pulled straight up over the stadium during the practise runs was awe inspiring.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Forget, thanks for that. I was on a ranger, I think, when it went in. I don't dispute it had a turbine disc failure and I accept that the issue was not the bombbay overheat that I thought.
I still believe that the root cause was the prolonged 'burning off' down to 140k because of the overheat. Had the ac been put on the ground immediately then the accident might have been avoided.
I understand that this was not th ecaptain's fault but the usual brains trust in th tower that was offering advice.
I still believe that the root cause was the prolonged 'burning off' down to 140k because of the overheat. Had the ac been put on the ground immediately then the accident might have been avoided.
I understand that this was not th ecaptain's fault but the usual brains trust in th tower that was offering advice.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Originally Posted by BEagle
the effect of high ISA dev on thrust and consequent fuel consumption to maintain the required thrust.. Presumably because it had been years since the Vs had operated at high AUW and high ISA dev at the same time?
UK fuel burn at high weight was mis-briefed
Yet we had learned this years earlier and the crew I was one used to modify our climb to height from Scampton to Goose before the increased burn at higher AoA kicked in. So we climbed at max chat to 390, then waited as long as possible before the climb to 430 approaching the ocean. Always saved us at least 2000lb!
UK fuel burn at high weight was mis-briefed
Yet we had learned this years earlier and the crew I was one used to modify our climb to height from Scampton to Goose before the increased burn at higher AoA kicked in. So we climbed at max chat to 390, then waited as long as possible before the climb to 430 approaching the ocean. Always saved us at least 2000lb!
Thereafter a cruise climb regime, if you we wearing pressure clothing, could be used. Of course on BB that was no longer an option.
The other thing that John Reeve noted, to his surprise, was that after the prod they said to the Victor, OK we're going up now, see you at the next prod. As he climbed so did the Victors draw away for they were flying nearer the trop and higher TAS for the colder you go so the slower you go!
It was quite an evolution working the Vulcan ODM and perghaps one not practised too often. The ISA Dev figures were in add on tables rather than the main sheets.