Future Carrier (Including Costs)

[orca]

Why would the government have to decide on anything to do with tactical minutae and arrangements that were already in place?

Long Lead Specialist Skills programme in place - Check.
RN and RAF in key USMC, USAF and USN liaison jobs - Check.
Super and legacy Hornet NREs - Check.
UK embeds in F-35 Integrated Test Force - Check.
17(R) Sqn stood up for OT - Check.
Lightning II briefing roadshow underway - Check.
Days to go board happily counting down in the dockyard - Check.
Ship's programme and Lightning II's dovetailed - Check.

What are we missing? Is it at all possible that we are paying professionals to do all this or is it happening by chance and osmosis?

[Courtney Mil]

But none of that guarantees the survival of any of tha equipment. No matter what what skills have been maintained or lost, the axe will fall where it falls.

Anyone here think that defence spending will increase? If not, more cuts coming. The only question is, where are the targets that will deliver savings.

[MSOCS]

There are enough smart and committed people making this work without the nay-sayers detracting from the challenge.

Keep it up folks!

[Turbine D]

Original post by glad rag:

Hang on though. WEBF does have one point, 35C has autoland coming, right? what about the B??

I wonder how F-35C (with the built in engine flex) auto land will handle certain interesting conditions, watch:

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=4gGMI8d3vLs

Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=S0yj70QbBzg

Original post by ThinkTanker

LBJ is the third of the Zumwalt class (USS Lyndon B. Johnson (DDG-1002) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia).

It's the third and last, each of the three ships cost $3.4 billion added to more than $9 billion in development costs bringing the total to over $12 billion. The program is currently cancelled. Although the ship has stealth characteristics, it would be required to approach within 30 nm of shore to fire its guns effectively. It would be vulnerable to visual detection and no more survivable than the DDGs it would be replacing. So Lyndon has to be satisfied his name is on a limited edition ship. Another well thought out DoD program.

[glad rag]

Originally Posted by MSOCS

There are enough smart and committed people making this work without the nay-sayers detracting from the challenge.

Keep it up folks!

Always good to see an optimist.

[Courtney Mil]

MSOCS, who are the "nay-Sayers" to whom you refer?

The question is about what MIGHT happen in the next round of UK defence cuts. Doesn't matter what anyone here opines. But we were asked for our opinions.

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Originally Posted by Hempy

Perhaps you need to check how the 'VL' component of you STOVL is traveling before asking that question.

Just sayin'

The VL bit seemed to be ok in the video on this link from August 2013:

Marines Test F-35B Vertical Landing on USS Wasp

This week - US Marine Corps Begins F-35B Operational Trials

Six U.S. Marine Corps F-35B Lightning II jet aircraft arrived Monday evening aboard the USS WASP off the coast of the United States’ Eastern Seaboard to mark the beginning of the first shipboard phase of the F-35B Operational Test (OT-1).

I think we can safely assume it will perform as desired in the STOVL shipborne regime.

My questions about personnel/skill issues come partly from reading an article by a CVS Cdr(Air) in which he warned of the danger of RN aircrews (rotary was well as fixed wing) losing familiarity with the environment of a warship, and of carrier personnel losing familiarity with having jets embarked. This was three years before SDSR 10, and seemed to be backed by anecdotal evidence that basics like FOD awareness (as well as other whole ship aspects - something I have often been concerned about) were suffering due to not having fixed wing aircraft embarked often enough.

If you look at the Royal Navy website you might notice the efforts made post Afghanistan to reacquaint other aircraft and personnel, namely the Junglies and Baggers, with the maritime environment.

[Not_a_boffin]

Crowsnest Award

Speaking of the Baggers......

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/n...riers-revealed

Looks like they're staying baggers. As opposed to podders.

[david parry]

The all singing and dancing Pinging / Bagger Merlin. On the new Flat Tops.. Seems to be a bit of a cop out, not having a fixed wing AEW with a greater range.. But hey ho ... we've got no dosh for such luxuries

[tucumseh]

So, having turned down Merlin 21 years ago, the RN..........

I wonder if this time they actually invited tenders for a FW solution? Lacking endorsed funding the procurers can only try to deliver what the customer endorses. Everyone seems to forget that most the ASaC Mk7 programme remains, to this day, unendorsed. Much of it was funded by tax (VAT) rebates, underspends, offsets and avoiding waste on other programmes. The achieved specification far exceeds that which the RN endorsed. Today's DE&S are pretty much hamstrung.

[Courtney Mil]

NaB, from your link,

The design comprises of a single mechanically scanned radar head which uses an innovative system to provide 360o visibility from the underside of the helicopter, and which folds up to the side of the aircraft when not in operation.

Who the hell writes stuff for the Government websites?

Seriously, though,

Originally Posted by Philip Dunne, Minister of State for Defence Procurement

It is essential that our ships and particularly our future aircraft carriers will have the best possible protection. The Crowsnest system onboard our new Merlin Mk2 helicopter will deliver an essential surveillance and intelligence capability, providing early warnings to our personnel of any potential threats.

He means it's the only option. Having taken the cats away, it pretty much has to be a helo-based system. Only the best for the Navy, eh?

I know it should be a good system, but...

[Turbine D]

Originally Posted by Philip Dunne, Minister of State for Defence Procurement
It is essential that our ships and particularly our future aircraft carriers will have the best possible protection. The Crowsnest system onboard our new Merlin Mk2 helicopter will deliver an essential surveillance and intelligence capability, providing early warnings to our personnel of any potential threats.

And then what?

[Not_a_boffin]

CM

Who the hell writes stuff for the Government websites?

A bunch of increasingly poorly-educated people who are apparently not allowed to be re-educated by shouting loudly in their ears or through repeated threat or application of physical violence. Who could forget the following :

Principle Anti-Air Missiles System (PAAMS) - now Sea Viper. Obviously only shoots at you if you've violated some ethical code.

Carrier Vertical Strike (CVS) - What we all used to call an Anti-Submarine (or Support) Carrier. Although in one Dstl (predecessor) report, I did see CVS described as a Conventional Submarine.

Carrier Vessel Future (CVF) - Again, feel free to add random words till you get an acronym that covers every letter.

Although none set me off quite as much as hangar (vice hangar) or the non-sensical fiction that is CATOBAR.....

[tucumseh]

NAB



In 1985, DGA(N) (the late Rear Admiral Holley) asked staffs to think up a name for the new Sea Harrier radar trainer (for Blue Vixen). Glass of sherry with Ron for the winner. (His favourite means of complimenting staff. A real gent.)

A young Lt was given a career brief on his brief career for suggesting Sea Harrier Intensive Trainer (****). Sea Harrier Operational Radar Trainer won. And yes, it was SHORT of a radar, as the Staff Officer (Oz exchange officer to be fair) promptly announced it didn't need one. Just ignored him.

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Originally Posted by david parry

The all singing and dancing Pinging / Bagger Merlin. On the new Flat Tops.. Seems to be a bit of a cop out, not having a fixed wing AEW with a greater range.. But hey ho ... we've got no dosh for such luxuries

Good luck with finding a STOVL fixed wing AEW platform. But you are right - E2 Hawkeye would be very expensive.

Originally Posted by Courtney Mil

He means it's the only option. Having taken the cats away, it pretty much has to be a helo-based system. Only the best for the Navy, eh?

I know it should be a good system, but...

From the outset CVF was intended to be STOVL - the 2010 decision and later (debacle as I mentioned a few pages) back did not change the practical issues including personnel numbers, training issues, and the need to generate sufficient steam for steam catapults to electrical power to electromagnetic ones.

In any case, the Hawkeye is an expensive aircraft, and a UK purchase would have been unlikely. There was discussion (including on this thread) of possibly using a version of the V22 Osprey - the US Marines were interested in fitting the radar and mission system used by the ASACS Sea King to the Osprey. However as far as I know nothing came of the idea - which would have been an expensive development for the UK alone.

At least a rotary wing platform can deploy from non carrier platforms.

In other news, the bow for HMS Prince Of Wales has been attached. That is progress.

[Tourist]

WEBF, you do write some rubbish.

There are plenty of wigglys for the catapult built in, and and steam was never considered as far as I'm aware.

[Shackman]

Sudden moment of deja vu - in the late 60's/early 70's (until withdrawal from the Far East) 205 Sqn used to regularly check on the wrecks of the Prince of Wales and Repulse - which were frequently visible at low tide - to ensure no one was plundering them for the metal.

In other news, the bow for HMS Prince Of Wales has been attached.

It couldn't be could it?

[163627]

Building the new carriers

For anyone who is interested in how these superb ships (or white elephants) are built then tune into "Yesterday" at 21.00 this evening. Should be interesting to see where all that money has been spent!

[Courtney Mil]

I wish you had told us were we could find Yesterday. Radio, TV, Internet? Which Channel?

[Not_a_boffin]

Don't bother. Worth watching for the all too brief footage of the ship in build and for Art Nalls and his SHAR. Otherwise keep volume turned right down to avoid explanation for 10 yr olds and repeated reference to biggest ships ever built in UK.

"Yesterday" is TV channel - 206 on VM.