Meteor Accident Statistics
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: East Midlands
Age: 84
Posts: 1,511
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Meteor Accident Statistics
I have just come across a review of a book called "Meteor - Eject" by Nick Carter. The book contains statistics about loss rates, can anybody who served in the 50/60s confirm these - they seem horrendous?
1. 150 total losses in 1952
2. 68 lost after running out of fuel
3. 23 lost doing official low level aeros displays
4. 890 lost in total
5. 436 fatal accidents between 1944 and 1986.
Then there were Canberra assymetric practice losses to add to the overall picture. How much better things are today, on loss rates at least!
1. 150 total losses in 1952
2. 68 lost after running out of fuel
3. 23 lost doing official low level aeros displays
4. 890 lost in total
5. 436 fatal accidents between 1944 and 1986.
Then there were Canberra assymetric practice losses to add to the overall picture. How much better things are today, on loss rates at least!
I lived near RAF Merryfield in the 1950s which housed 208 AFS at the time. From what I've heard from those who were around in those days, the accident record you've unearthed seems correct. One night, for example, a whole wave of aircraft was lost when they all had to bail out due to fog, no fuel and no divs.....or so I was told several years later.
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: South Central UK
Posts: 254
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Some Meteors, eg T7, did not have ejection seats and just to spice up life a bit more, the T7 in particular had horrendous, leg trembling rudder forces when flying asymmetric. Simulated engine failure after take-off and single engine overshoots were, shall we say, a physically demanding event that left little margin for error.
Simulated asymmetric flying killed a lot of people in aircraft such as Meteor and Canberra. Well in excess of fatalities due to actual engine failures.
lm
Simulated asymmetric flying killed a lot of people in aircraft such as Meteor and Canberra. Well in excess of fatalities due to actual engine failures.
lm
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the ORP
Posts: 98
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was once told that when Driffield was a Meteor AFTS (or OCU?) the loss rate was 1 per week and there was a standing funeral party. They say there are still the marks in the cliffs around Flamborough Head where a 3 ship impacted trying to get back to Driffield under the weather.
I can confirm the pretty horrendous leg forces needed when assymetric at low speeds, not a task to be undertaken lightly.
There was also the problem of "The Phantom Dive". In the T7, and maybe in the single seaters, you never selected airbrakes out with the gear and flap down otherwise the airflow over the back end effectively ceased and the thing just went down. If I remember correctly, this problem was made worse by the close proximity of the airbrake and the flap levers, both in the same place and both acting in the same way.
I can confirm the pretty horrendous leg forces needed when assymetric at low speeds, not a task to be undertaken lightly.
There was also the problem of "The Phantom Dive". In the T7, and maybe in the single seaters, you never selected airbrakes out with the gear and flap down otherwise the airflow over the back end effectively ceased and the thing just went down. If I remember correctly, this problem was made worse by the close proximity of the airbrake and the flap levers, both in the same place and both acting in the same way.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Witney UK
Posts: 616
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sadly, even in the latter days of the early 60's at Strubby, the Meatbox caught out the experts, my QFI Flt Sgt Jock Black and his student were killed on an assymetric sortie and the CFS agent, Flt Lt Doe I think, died shortly afterwards when an engine failed just after T/O at Rissie. Everyone had their individual assymetric crit speed dependant on their leg strength and size.
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: West Sussex
Posts: 149
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lightningmate
Any mark of Meteor would give you a severe "leg-tremble" if you put full chat on the live engine and allowed the speed to come below 125Kts, but I guess the T7 was worst, or the earlier 3s and 4s which all had the kind of egg shaped fin and rudder.
Most multis will run out of rudder authority in the severe assymetric case below Vmca. In the Meteor you also ran out of strength in your leg muscles. You could just about cope in a 7 with both pilots pushing like the clappers. Didn't stop you losing control though!
2TWU
As Beagle said, I reckon those crash stats were probably very true. The great majority occurred from 50 to 55. There were also a lot more of us. 15 Meteor NF Squadrons alone each with around twenty crews. There just wasn't enough appreciated about the old girl's vices in those days, especially in training. Once guys got on the squadron and got a few more hours under their belts - things improved a lot
As for Phantom dives - they happened if you got low and slow on one engine and forgot to put your airbrakes in. When you put the gear down, one leg came down first and the beast would yaw if you weren't ready for it. In yawing, one inner wing would be blanketed by the forward fuselage, and with brakes out as well, lift would disappear rather rapidly from that wing and you rolled right over. Bit close to the ground and goodnight.
Witness the last accident with the Vintage pair - I gather that was a Phantom dive problem.
As for the baddie at Driffield, I was holding there for a month in Jan 52 before going to ITS (Initia Training School) prior to FTS in Rhodesia, and the accident happened before I got there. Two solo students being led by an instructor let down over the sea before turning round and coming backto Driffield under the clag.
Unfortunately, they flew straight into the cliff. Can't remember whether the QFI pulled up in time - twas over 50 years ago!
I think Beagle may have got the area a bit mixed up. Around 55, the Day Fighter Leaders School (DFLS) had a formation up -returning to West Raynham - got a feeling they were Hunters but I could be wrong. Anyway, typical of those days, you had to wring as much as possible out of the sortie, so overhead with enough fuel for a couple of circuits!! I think about 6 bailed out one after the other!
Incidentally, you mentioned Canberra training losses. The loss of aircraft practicing assymetric was pretty horrendous - why? Because we always actually shut the engine down and not just back to idle. More realistic they said!! It was like that until the late 60s when we lost our first two Hercs through assymetric practice and somebody saw the light!
Ah me, all this reminiscing. Where are you Flatus Veteranus now that I need you. My cup runneth over! I never did find out if Cess Crook actually set fire to the leave train!!
Any mark of Meteor would give you a severe "leg-tremble" if you put full chat on the live engine and allowed the speed to come below 125Kts, but I guess the T7 was worst, or the earlier 3s and 4s which all had the kind of egg shaped fin and rudder.
Most multis will run out of rudder authority in the severe assymetric case below Vmca. In the Meteor you also ran out of strength in your leg muscles. You could just about cope in a 7 with both pilots pushing like the clappers. Didn't stop you losing control though!
2TWU
As Beagle said, I reckon those crash stats were probably very true. The great majority occurred from 50 to 55. There were also a lot more of us. 15 Meteor NF Squadrons alone each with around twenty crews. There just wasn't enough appreciated about the old girl's vices in those days, especially in training. Once guys got on the squadron and got a few more hours under their belts - things improved a lot
As for Phantom dives - they happened if you got low and slow on one engine and forgot to put your airbrakes in. When you put the gear down, one leg came down first and the beast would yaw if you weren't ready for it. In yawing, one inner wing would be blanketed by the forward fuselage, and with brakes out as well, lift would disappear rather rapidly from that wing and you rolled right over. Bit close to the ground and goodnight.
Witness the last accident with the Vintage pair - I gather that was a Phantom dive problem.
As for the baddie at Driffield, I was holding there for a month in Jan 52 before going to ITS (Initia Training School) prior to FTS in Rhodesia, and the accident happened before I got there. Two solo students being led by an instructor let down over the sea before turning round and coming backto Driffield under the clag.
Unfortunately, they flew straight into the cliff. Can't remember whether the QFI pulled up in time - twas over 50 years ago!
I think Beagle may have got the area a bit mixed up. Around 55, the Day Fighter Leaders School (DFLS) had a formation up -returning to West Raynham - got a feeling they were Hunters but I could be wrong. Anyway, typical of those days, you had to wring as much as possible out of the sortie, so overhead with enough fuel for a couple of circuits!! I think about 6 bailed out one after the other!
Incidentally, you mentioned Canberra training losses. The loss of aircraft practicing assymetric was pretty horrendous - why? Because we always actually shut the engine down and not just back to idle. More realistic they said!! It was like that until the late 60s when we lost our first two Hercs through assymetric practice and somebody saw the light!
Ah me, all this reminiscing. Where are you Flatus Veteranus now that I need you. My cup runneth over! I never did find out if Cess Crook actually set fire to the leave train!!
Bof - no, the infamous DFLS Hunter accident was much later. I was told that ac from Merryfield took off one night and did some night flying; on their return the aerodrome was out in fog. So off they set for Weston Zoyland, only to find that it was even worse. Back to Merryfield and it was still out - so, find somewhere dark and step over the side......
I was told (by a chap standing behind me in the queue at Lloyds Bank at RAFC in 1969 who saw the word 'Ilminster' in my cheque book - nearest town to Merryfield) that he'd been in the tower that night. Someone phoned in to say that an aeroplane had crashed behind his house. "Thank you sir, we know about that" had been the reply - until they realised that the caller was miles from the first prang. Then the phone went again....and again.....
I was lucky enough to get a few back seat rides in Meteor T7 WA669 'Clementine' at Brawdy in the 70s. "If we lose one on take-off, below xxx knots I'll throttle back the other and crash straight ahead, hopefully on the RW" went the brief, "above xxx knots I'll say 'LEFT' or 'RIGHT'. Push as hard as you can with that leg whilst I curse, swear, jettison the ventral and attempt to keep the old girl flying. It will go very quiet until we're away from the ground, then I'll fly a very careful asymmetric circuit and landing after which we'll leg it to the pub and get pi$$ed!" it concluded.
I was told (by a chap standing behind me in the queue at Lloyds Bank at RAFC in 1969 who saw the word 'Ilminster' in my cheque book - nearest town to Merryfield) that he'd been in the tower that night. Someone phoned in to say that an aeroplane had crashed behind his house. "Thank you sir, we know about that" had been the reply - until they realised that the caller was miles from the first prang. Then the phone went again....and again.....
I was lucky enough to get a few back seat rides in Meteor T7 WA669 'Clementine' at Brawdy in the 70s. "If we lose one on take-off, below xxx knots I'll throttle back the other and crash straight ahead, hopefully on the RW" went the brief, "above xxx knots I'll say 'LEFT' or 'RIGHT'. Push as hard as you can with that leg whilst I curse, swear, jettison the ventral and attempt to keep the old girl flying. It will go very quiet until we're away from the ground, then I'll fly a very careful asymmetric circuit and landing after which we'll leg it to the pub and get pi$$ed!" it concluded.
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: West Sussex
Posts: 149
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks Beagle. the beauty of prune is there's always some b*gg*r around who can say 'No not quite like that'. I'll put it down to fading brain cells and anno domini. Do you remember the 54 Sqn aerobatic team from Odiham - Nov 3rd, 1955. I was flying a Meteor 8 back up to Leconfield on the PAI course.
There I was minding my own business, when I heard Dewdrop One and Two calling Mayday, no fuel, engine gone, pulling up, bailing out - just like that - dead nonchalant, hotly followed by Three. Four(Kurt Curtis) just made it into Tangers. Just when I thought it couldn't get any worse I heard the photographic Meteor NF14 followed by a photographic Vamp T11(Pat Swaffer I believe) - doing the same thing!! They'd got caugt out by weather at Odiham after a photo session.
I carried on shakily to Lec and had to write out a 5ft report on what I'd heard. 5 aircraft gone in about 10 mins, 7 guys bailed out and no one hurt - ground or air. God we used to lose aeroplanes in those days, and it rarely featured more than a couple of paragraphs in the press. Back to the armchair!
There I was minding my own business, when I heard Dewdrop One and Two calling Mayday, no fuel, engine gone, pulling up, bailing out - just like that - dead nonchalant, hotly followed by Three. Four(Kurt Curtis) just made it into Tangers. Just when I thought it couldn't get any worse I heard the photographic Meteor NF14 followed by a photographic Vamp T11(Pat Swaffer I believe) - doing the same thing!! They'd got caugt out by weather at Odiham after a photo session.
I carried on shakily to Lec and had to write out a 5ft report on what I'd heard. 5 aircraft gone in about 10 mins, 7 guys bailed out and no one hurt - ground or air. God we used to lose aeroplanes in those days, and it rarely featured more than a couple of paragraphs in the press. Back to the armchair!
Fascinating insight into those days - thanks, Bof!
I was in shorts back then, but I distinctly remember seeing the crashed aircraft compound at RAF Weston Zoyland absolutely stuffed with bits of pranged training aircraft. A chap I once knew told me that when he was a Meatbox QFI in Yorkshire, one student crashed into his own room in the Officers' Mess killing himself and destroying all his possessions. At least it saved the Effects Officer from having to do much, they all said!
Mind you, we probably lost more aeroplanes in any one month back then than we have serviceable for use on any one day these days......
I was in shorts back then, but I distinctly remember seeing the crashed aircraft compound at RAF Weston Zoyland absolutely stuffed with bits of pranged training aircraft. A chap I once knew told me that when he was a Meatbox QFI in Yorkshire, one student crashed into his own room in the Officers' Mess killing himself and destroying all his possessions. At least it saved the Effects Officer from having to do much, they all said!
Mind you, we probably lost more aeroplanes in any one month back then than we have serviceable for use on any one day these days......
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: France
Posts: 289
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was a QFI on 208AFS at Merryfield 1953 till the AFS closed and I was off to Valley, and to commence with we had Meteor7s for dual and Vampire 1s for solo. Students were not allowed solo in the Meteor but the old Vampire 1s (202 gallons) used to go in at an alarming rate and we lost on average, a student every three weeks, and there was a full time funeral party. The situation got so bad that the vicar of the church in Ilton, the adjoining village, would not allow any more RAF funerals in his boneyard as it was filling up, so the Service bought a plot of land in the village to use as a cemetery. We then were re-equiped with Vampire T.11s and Vampire 5s and 9s. and the accident rate dropped straight away.
Much as I liked the Meteor 7 it could bite, I remember my crit. speed was 123kts but that was a real leg trembler, the other thing you learnt quickly in the back seat was to keep your fist under the flap and u/c levers as they were side by side and identical and you blocked the one that you did not want selected.
One other thought was that as the 7 was not pressurised and stomachs and their contents do tend to expand at altitude, the odours floating back from the front seat were somewhat ripe especially from a student on his first try at what was described as a high level formation exercise (don't laugh that was at 35000').
Happy days
Much as I liked the Meteor 7 it could bite, I remember my crit. speed was 123kts but that was a real leg trembler, the other thing you learnt quickly in the back seat was to keep your fist under the flap and u/c levers as they were side by side and identical and you blocked the one that you did not want selected.
One other thought was that as the 7 was not pressurised and stomachs and their contents do tend to expand at altitude, the odours floating back from the front seat were somewhat ripe especially from a student on his first try at what was described as a high level formation exercise (don't laugh that was at 35000').
Happy days
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: North England
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The accident mentioned above happened at Middleton St George now Teesside Intl Airport, OM is now the George Hotel and is alleged to be haunted by the pilot - apparently.
Join Date: Oct 1998
Location: Kalgoorlie, W.A. , Australia
Age: 86
Posts: 458
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Good Old Days ???
Bof,
1. You exagerate "it rarely featured more than a couple of paragraphs in the press."
The local press may be, often didn't even make the nationals.
2. "They'd got caught out by weather" Met was still a bit crude.
Losses at 2ANS, Thorney Island (probably considered a low risk operation) in 12 months '57/'58 2 Varsitys, 1 Valetta and several Vampires. The Vampires were not flying accidents, they were parked too close together and one self ignited and destroyed 2 or 3 of its neighbours!
Cor 35 thou. I always wanted a ride in a Meteor. Afore mentioned NF10s struggled to get to +30.
Aircrew intake at that time was probably about 1000 a year.
Edit
Final Paragraph deleted as Art Field has posted his correct quote below.
Thanks Art.
1. You exagerate "it rarely featured more than a couple of paragraphs in the press."
The local press may be, often didn't even make the nationals.
2. "They'd got caught out by weather" Met was still a bit crude.
Losses at 2ANS, Thorney Island (probably considered a low risk operation) in 12 months '57/'58 2 Varsitys, 1 Valetta and several Vampires. The Vampires were not flying accidents, they were parked too close together and one self ignited and destroyed 2 or 3 of its neighbours!
Cor 35 thou. I always wanted a ride in a Meteor. Afore mentioned NF10s struggled to get to +30.
Aircrew intake at that time was probably about 1000 a year.
Edit
Final Paragraph deleted as Art Field has posted his correct quote below.
Thanks Art.
Last edited by Pom Pax; 29th Oct 2002 at 23:04.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Witney UK
Posts: 616
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The CO at Kirton when I went through was a Gwoop Captin Lerwell (thats how he said it) and his passing out address went something like "whether you be pilots, navigators or air lectrictwonic officers, 50% of you will be dead within the year and another 20% will be maimed for life, good luck chaps". As far as I know most of us (99 course) survived well beyond the forecast.
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the ORP
Posts: 98
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bof, I'm pretty sure the Phantom Dive could happen with both engines running as well. When I was checked out on the CFS Meteor many years ago I was told that when sitting in the back seat, always keep your hand firmly on the airbrake lever to prevent any inadvetant selection even on a normal cct. Although I cannot be certain as I was overseas at the time, I was under the impression the Vintage Pair Meatbox was on both engines when it went in--could well be wrong though.
My best Meteor story concerns Church Fenton in the Auxilliary days. One day the Wg Cdr (when they did command Wings) got the whole lot, approx 35 aircraft airborne and took them all up to high level above 8/8ths clag. After a while there were some anxious faces looking at fuel gauges, the Wg Cdr simply rolled inverted and disappeared with the R/T "Well, I know where I am, you lot sort yourselves out"
My best Meteor story concerns Church Fenton in the Auxilliary days. One day the Wg Cdr (when they did command Wings) got the whole lot, approx 35 aircraft airborne and took them all up to high level above 8/8ths clag. After a while there were some anxious faces looking at fuel gauges, the Wg Cdr simply rolled inverted and disappeared with the R/T "Well, I know where I am, you lot sort yourselves out"
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Witney UK
Posts: 616
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If I remember rightly the Meteors mainwheels lowered one at a time causing significant yawing right and then left downwind (might have been the other way round), if airbrakes were out as well then lift just disappeared and you dropped like a stone even if both Derwents were running. Remember this was 1940/50's technology and engine acceleration times were pretty poor.
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: The Valley Where the Thames Runs Softly
Age: 77
Posts: 556
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lord (Norman) Tebbit flew Meteors, and I found the following quote:
-------------------
He trained as a jet pilot with the RAF and lived for the 'sheer animal thrill' of flying at high speed. One day during take-off in a Meteor something went wrong and he found himself trapped in his cockpit, his oxygen mask full of blood, and the plane, which was full of fuel, on fire. He assumed he was going to die but, instead of panicking he considered his options, and eventually found a way to break the glass and scramble free before passing out.
-------------------
Sounds interesting. In an earlier interview which I read some years ago, he said that after that incident, with a jammed canopy, he felt that he was playing with the Casino's money.
-------------------
He trained as a jet pilot with the RAF and lived for the 'sheer animal thrill' of flying at high speed. One day during take-off in a Meteor something went wrong and he found himself trapped in his cockpit, his oxygen mask full of blood, and the plane, which was full of fuel, on fire. He assumed he was going to die but, instead of panicking he considered his options, and eventually found a way to break the glass and scramble free before passing out.
-------------------
Sounds interesting. In an earlier interview which I read some years ago, he said that after that incident, with a jammed canopy, he felt that he was playing with the Casino's money.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: due south
Posts: 1,332
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mention has been made of the possibility of confusing the Meteor flap and airbrake levers, it is hard to see how this would has occured.
The flap lever was at the top left on the main front panel and worked in the conventional sense of up and down.
The airbrakes were on the left cockpit wall adjacent to the throttles well away from the flap lever, and operated on a slide with a fore and aft action, slide back to open and forward to close.
That aside, the stories of the horrendous assymetric foot loads are not exaggerated in the least.
At AFS I pushed the sole clean away from the heel on one pair of flying boots with the pressure on the instep.
On the flying accidents during this period I believe there is a book detailing all accidents in the 1950's which would confirm the numbers, but I have not seen a copy.
The flap lever was at the top left on the main front panel and worked in the conventional sense of up and down.
The airbrakes were on the left cockpit wall adjacent to the throttles well away from the flap lever, and operated on a slide with a fore and aft action, slide back to open and forward to close.
That aside, the stories of the horrendous assymetric foot loads are not exaggerated in the least.
At AFS I pushed the sole clean away from the heel on one pair of flying boots with the pressure on the instep.
On the flying accidents during this period I believe there is a book detailing all accidents in the 1950's which would confirm the numbers, but I have not seen a copy.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Art Field
Your piece about the CO's speech at Kirton made me laugh (although I know I shouldn't). It's sounds like a scene straight out of Monty Python. I can picture the assembled squad ready to pass off, then this officer making a speech about the fatality rate, and spoken with a speech impediment, and everyone looking around at each other !! Q Monty Python music.
Your piece about the CO's speech at Kirton made me laugh (although I know I shouldn't). It's sounds like a scene straight out of Monty Python. I can picture the assembled squad ready to pass off, then this officer making a speech about the fatality rate, and spoken with a speech impediment, and everyone looking around at each other !! Q Monty Python music.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Meteor Accidents
Beagle is right; at Merryfield in 1954, at least three Meteors went in on the same night, I seem to recall that they had diverted from Weston Zoyland and were caught out by the same fog that had caused the diversion in the first place. I seem also to recall that one crew survived.
2TWU, right again, and the three scars were indeed visible in the cliff-face as folk flew in to Leconfield.
Bof, the multi-prang you mention was at West Raynham on 8 February 1956, when we 'lost six Hunters in eight minutes' (the title by the way, of an article in Air Clues dated March 1982). 'Yellow 4' who was Dick Tumilty from 28 Sqn RAF Sek Kong, was the only fatality.
Ces Crook certainly hi-jacked the train, but I am not sure he set fire to it. Did you know that he is still around in New Zealand? I have a local contact if anyone is interested.
2TWU, right again, and the three scars were indeed visible in the cliff-face as folk flew in to Leconfield.
Bof, the multi-prang you mention was at West Raynham on 8 February 1956, when we 'lost six Hunters in eight minutes' (the title by the way, of an article in Air Clues dated March 1982). 'Yellow 4' who was Dick Tumilty from 28 Sqn RAF Sek Kong, was the only fatality.
Ces Crook certainly hi-jacked the train, but I am not sure he set fire to it. Did you know that he is still around in New Zealand? I have a local contact if anyone is interested.
