what happened to camouflage ?
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Fallmonk ... Yup, great photo.
However, from 25 ft against that background it looks great. Could you see the separate spots from, say, 2,000 ft above? Or indeed the rocks on the ground?
Just teasing
However, from 25 ft against that background it looks great. Could you see the separate spots from, say, 2,000 ft above? Or indeed the rocks on the ground?
Just teasing
Anybody remember the trials done (I think involving the Dutch, who have done a lot of work on camouflage, including thermal IR), where disruptive patterned F-16's were parked and then imaged on disruptive patterned concrete pans?
MPN11 - Assume it would have been concrete. Didn't think tarmac was normally used for hardstandings.
Seem to recall the northern dispersal at Kinloss was painted to give an impression of aircraft parked. Dark colour and vague outline of something on the ground. To do with perceptions at low level and high speed?
Anyone with more info?
Seem to recall the northern dispersal at Kinloss was painted to give an impression of aircraft parked. Dark colour and vague outline of something on the ground. To do with perceptions at low level and high speed?
Anyone with more info?
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OAAT ... i regret my handle on the Cammo work in the office was limited. i know he borrowed a big pro video camera from somewhere, and poked of to KSS, but he didn't share much info.
I was only the Boss, so apparently I didn't need to know details
There was so much we could have done, multi-spectrally. We had some great, cheap, schemes brewing on the back burner. But it all fizzled out. Bloody Sovs.
I was only the Boss, so apparently I didn't need to know details
There was so much we could have done, multi-spectrally. We had some great, cheap, schemes brewing on the back burner. But it all fizzled out. Bloody Sovs.
U.S. Air Force LTV A-7D Corsair II fighters from the 354th Tactical Fighter Wing disappear against the camouflaged hardstand at Korat Royal Thai Air Force Base, in October 1972.
Military camouflage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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TEEEJ,
Only as strong as your weakest link? Effective, but a quick burst of tracer into one of those discrete yellow bowsers and it wouldn't matter if you saw the jets or not!
Only as strong as your weakest link? Effective, but a quick burst of tracer into one of those discrete yellow bowsers and it wouldn't matter if you saw the jets or not!
Haraka,
Ex Tartan Shadow was conducted at Kinloss in 1992. Nimrods were parked adjacent to seemingly abstract sharp edged shapes painted onto the toned down concrete. Some shapes were lighter 'concrete' colour, others were black.
We got the local Buccaneer guys to come over at various heights and speeds (without telling them what to expect) to see what they made of them.
The general consensus was that the 'shapes' were easy to tell apart from the real Nimrods, which was no great surprise. However, on their first encounter with the shapes they were momentarily distracted, wondering what they were. The scientists who came up with the shapes were delighted at this, as that apparently was what they had been hoping to achieve.
and then, just like everything else ... it was all forgotten ... and someone will re-invent it in another decade or so ...
Ex Tartan Shadow was conducted at Kinloss in 1992. Nimrods were parked adjacent to seemingly abstract sharp edged shapes painted onto the toned down concrete. Some shapes were lighter 'concrete' colour, others were black.
We got the local Buccaneer guys to come over at various heights and speeds (without telling them what to expect) to see what they made of them.
The general consensus was that the 'shapes' were easy to tell apart from the real Nimrods, which was no great surprise. However, on their first encounter with the shapes they were momentarily distracted, wondering what they were. The scientists who came up with the shapes were delighted at this, as that apparently was what they had been hoping to achieve.
and then, just like everything else ... it was all forgotten ... and someone will re-invent it in another decade or so ...
Thanks HAS 59,
I wasn't aware of that trial. the "momentary distraction" value being of course exactly the point; enough to hopefully compromise a first pass.
I wasn't aware of that trial. the "momentary distraction" value being of course exactly the point; enough to hopefully compromise a first pass.
Thanks HAS 59,
I wasn't aware of that trial. the "momentary distraction" value being of course exactly the point; enough to hopefully compromise commitment on a first pass.
I wasn't aware of that trial. the "momentary distraction" value being of course exactly the point; enough to hopefully compromise commitment on a first pass.
As I recall one of the revelations during Exercise Tartan Shadow was that a significant part of the pan at Kinloss had been resurfaced with a black bitumen which meant that the Nimrod hemp camouflage, which was optimised for 'toned down' concrete, now stood out like the proverbial DBs.
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"Momentary Distraction" was part of our Team's focus. Dropping unguided munitions from high speed/low level doesn't give too many options for last-moment corrections.
Other airfield Cam ideas being bounced around included:
Other airfield Cam ideas being bounced around included:
- Long lines of wheeled frames, fitted with plastic "hedgerows" and radar reflectors. Tow into the midfield to confuse visual cues and try to stop the airfield being a visual and radar hole in the landscape.
- Contrasting grass treatments to either create cam patterns, or attempt to duplicate existing surface areas.
- Multi-spectral decoy aircraft
- Near off-base dispersal of aircraft, away from the obvious targets of HAS sites and dispersals
- ... and even trying to establish dummy airfields nearby using radar reflectors and other techniques.
Last edited by MPN11; 19th Mar 2014 at 14:22.
Tartan Shadow
Bspatz,
you are quite right about the Hemp planes standing out on the black pan.
This was a classic case of the left hand not knowing what the right hand was doing.
On the one hand we were trying to make the aircraft blend in tonally with their existing backgrounds, in order to make them more difficult to detect from space. Which is where the Hemp colour (or tone) came from.
The information regarding tone from this trial was also used by the Air Defenders when deciding the shade of grey to use. But that's another story.
On the other hand there was the RAF Airfield Tone Down team who's job seemed to be to paint everything green, buildings vehicles and vertical structures. The concrete taxiways and hardstandings were as you know covered in black bitumen. No doubt this made the airfield infrastructure harder to detect but ...
One day the RAF might get it's act together.
you are quite right about the Hemp planes standing out on the black pan.
This was a classic case of the left hand not knowing what the right hand was doing.
On the one hand we were trying to make the aircraft blend in tonally with their existing backgrounds, in order to make them more difficult to detect from space. Which is where the Hemp colour (or tone) came from.
The information regarding tone from this trial was also used by the Air Defenders when deciding the shade of grey to use. But that's another story.
On the other hand there was the RAF Airfield Tone Down team who's job seemed to be to paint everything green, buildings vehicles and vertical structures. The concrete taxiways and hardstandings were as you know covered in black bitumen. No doubt this made the airfield infrastructure harder to detect but ...
One day the RAF might get it's act together.
I think I posted a while back that when in RAF Hospital Ely(of blessed memory) in the 60s there was a wg cdr on our ward who said he had designed the Vulcan camouflage scheme, based on his initials.
I had the pleasure of interviewing Mr P Barley just after Gulf War I.
Things I remember (though it was a long time ago!):
1. Barley grey was all about contrast against the sky - beyond a few kms, colour becomes irrelevant to visual detection.
2. Countershading was tried - lighter undersides/darker on top - like the early Eurofighter prototypes (DA2 etc.). This again was to reduce contrast. Mr Barley delighted in telling me about how he had pioneered this in the UK using an Airfix 1:24 scale Harrier GR1 plastic kit stuck on top of what was then the Institute of Aviation Medicine near the old ETPS. I saw the pictures - true story!
3. Contrast is also the reason hawks are black - when compared against e.g. high vis SAR helo yellow, black is actually much easier to see with the Mk1 eyeball at several km ranges. So the hawks ditched the red/white and went black for safety (anti-collision, hence anti-camo) reasons. I think there were discussions about painting the sea kings black for the same reason.
4. Hemp Nimrods replaced the comically obvious gloss white roofs that were visible for miles when they were parked on the pan.
5. Psuedo "False canopies" went on the Jags for GWI - he was proud of that. I think they just painted the nose gear door black.
6. Trials were done on active light based camo on 1/4 scale tornados (ex spin tunnel models I think). Film was quite good.
Nice chap. Interesting time to be at Farnborough!
Things I remember (though it was a long time ago!):
1. Barley grey was all about contrast against the sky - beyond a few kms, colour becomes irrelevant to visual detection.
2. Countershading was tried - lighter undersides/darker on top - like the early Eurofighter prototypes (DA2 etc.). This again was to reduce contrast. Mr Barley delighted in telling me about how he had pioneered this in the UK using an Airfix 1:24 scale Harrier GR1 plastic kit stuck on top of what was then the Institute of Aviation Medicine near the old ETPS. I saw the pictures - true story!
3. Contrast is also the reason hawks are black - when compared against e.g. high vis SAR helo yellow, black is actually much easier to see with the Mk1 eyeball at several km ranges. So the hawks ditched the red/white and went black for safety (anti-collision, hence anti-camo) reasons. I think there were discussions about painting the sea kings black for the same reason.
4. Hemp Nimrods replaced the comically obvious gloss white roofs that were visible for miles when they were parked on the pan.
5. Psuedo "False canopies" went on the Jags for GWI - he was proud of that. I think they just painted the nose gear door black.
6. Trials were done on active light based camo on 1/4 scale tornados (ex spin tunnel models I think). Film was quite good.
Nice chap. Interesting time to be at Farnborough!
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Originally Posted by bspatz
a significant part of the pan at Kinloss had been resurfaced with a black bitumen
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One day the RAF might get it's act together
