Nuclear Tests

[Ivan Rogov]

1771 could it carry all these?

http://www.navynucweps.com/images/57_convoy.jpg

[Roadster280]

Dumb question time.

Does an NDB generate "liquid fallout" that remains radioactive in the atmosphere as vapour/clouds, or just an enormous splash and it all comes back down again pretty much immediately? I assume the vast quantity of water surrounding the burst site disperses any radiation concerns pretty quickly.

[VinRouge]

The underwater atol tests were some of the dirtiest done, despite their relatively low yields. Read 100 suns, fantastic coffee table book. Got a great section in the back including the story of John Wayne and cast being irradiated on the set of a western in Arizona I believe, as a result of fallout. 10 years later, many of the cast, including Wayne, he died of cancer.

The Straight Dope: Did John Wayne die of cancer caused by a radioactive movie set?

My favourite story in the book has to be about Davy Crockett nuclear mortar. Bat**** crazy.

YouTube

[Yellow Sun]

The Nimrod special weapon was white but not of UK origin.

I saw a lot of shapes; they were white; but never saw a B57 warshot.

YS

[Roadster280]

I understand the atoll tests would have spewed radioactive coral & sand etc, but for a deep-sea attack on a submarine, would it produce "fallout"? Or just a giant splash and no lasting radiation?

[Pontius Navigator]

Roadster, if you read this report The Effects of Nuclear Weapons, 1977: Underwater and Underground Bursts it should answer your question.

It talks of bursts in deep water at 500 and 2000 feet. The depth of burst is of tactical significance. If an air delivered weapon was set to detonate when very deep the time late at datum would risk giving a target sufficient time to escape the blast.

[Roadster280]

Thanks PN, that makes sense. Deep water=not so bad. Unless you're in a submarine, a Shackleton or a Wasp, that is

[Pontius Navigator]

R280, of bobbing about in a boat.

[West Coast]

Operation Wigwam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Roaster

You might this of interest. I heard about this a few years ago and because its off the coast of San Diego (where I live) I did some research. The short film in the external links near the bottom of the link is fairly interesting.

[deltahotel]

Flying throught the cloud

Pedroalpha - my dad also involved in Op Grapple and the post explosion air sampling. He was a Canberra nav, based at RAAF (?) Edinburgh from mid 58 - late 59. Didn't talk about it that much and died from cancer 4 years ago aged 77.

DH

[dragartist]

RW question for pontius

In 1963 the plan for release clearance of the WE177A was #1Buccaneer, #5Wasp, #6 Wessex HAS3, #7 Wessex HU5, #10 Sea King (to be)

Pontius, did these RW platforms have the circuits to realease live special weapons. I know when I was at JATE I had custody of a number of classified Tie Down Shemes for Air Transport (Inc RW) also a number of Helicopter Underslung Load schemes. It was quite a chore to look after these documents. I had to laff as they were black on white tracings from photo's where, for Sy purposes, the weapon was drapped in a tarpauline!!

I had a bit of experience, and recieved AoC in C Commendation for designing the armament system on the Nimrod R. went to great lengths with ARM Div at A2 E2. had to jump through countless hoops when working on the MR2 (Special radios) because of the Special Weapons circuits.

All very spine chilling stuff

[1771 DELETE]

Ivan, that is a very interesting photo you have there, they were certainly similar but i can not understand how they could be photographed in circumstances similar to that. Once we finished with them in the early 90`s, the C141`s whipped them all to the west.
Mention of the Nimrod R1 weapon system, not sure how that sneaked onto these pages, the aircraft had no offensive weapons, the bomb bay being filled up with other stuff.

[Pontius Navigator]

Drag, in 1963 that was the policy decision for clearances.

My source also includes Harrier, Jaguar, Lynx, SHAR, Tornado and Vulcan Mk 1.

On the Vulcan re-roling to WE177 was simply a matter of swapping panel EP for panel ER. I know however that the Mk 1a Vulcan wing at Waddo was never roled for WE177 - targets or training.

I have photographs of a Wessex carrying a WE177A test round and a later list had plans for Wasp and Wessex to be cleared in 1967 and Sea King and Nimrod in 1968. I know Nimrod never carried WE177 either.

Although the Scimitar and Sea Vixen had been on the list they were both removed and the F4 was not added.

What I don't have is a definitive list of what actually carried the WE177. I know the Jaguar did but the Harrier did not.

[kenparry]

I know the Jaguar did but the Harrier did not.

RAF Harrier, correct. But Sea Harrier could.

[dragartist]

Thanx Pontius

thanks for your help with my understanding of this topic pontius. I did a bit more research and found nuclear-weapons.info which had pics of wessex and wasp carrying white weapons.

For 1771, I was trying to point out the lengths we had to go to when installing armaments on an aircraft that was not so equipped from the start. MASS Bus Bars, WoW swicthes, Flap override switches etc to keep crews safe and give them a chance of returning from dangerous missions. what had been routine stuff [on R]became 1o times more complex on aircaft that were equipped with special weapons[MR2]. You would not have wanted me to be complacent. The armaments did not need to be offensive. A flare from a BOZ pod could equally spoil someones day and unlikly to be the floppy link between the seat and stick.

As a youngster I can't comprehend the thought of heading off on a one way mission. let us hope those days are behind us.

[Pontius Navigator]

DM, we never considered these to be one-way missions. Under certain circumstances we were briefed that we might loiter until we had fuel for only target plus 50 miles.

Notwithstanding that UK and our base would be an incandescent smoking hole we were not very happy at the idea of planning a one-way mission.

[tornadoken]

PN: definitive list of what actually carried the WE177. Brian Burnell's, site, the books of Soton U's Mountbatten Centre, and elsewhere...try this. WE177B first.

Wilson got in, 10/64 pledged to "no new nuclear weapons". He chopped SSBN No.5, material for whose warheads were in AWRE/ROF's programme, and put them, (16x3), assembled as a variant of WE177 (now renamed WE177A*), in Vulcan 2 to sustain Deterrent credibility until RN took over. But they lingered longer:
9 Sqd/Cottesmore, 9/66-25/2/69: 8
12 Sqd/Cottesmore, 9/66-29/12/67: 8
35 Sqd/Cottesmore, 9/66-14/1/69: 8
44 Sqd/Waddington, 1/7/68**-21/12/82: 8
50 Sqd/Waddington, 1/7/68**-30/6/82: 8
101 Sqd/Waddington, 1/7/68**-4/8/82: 8

27 Sqd/Scampton (bombs held in Waddo SSA***), 1/1/70-31/12/71**: } 8
617 Sqd/Scampton (bombs held in Waddo SSA***), 1/1/71-31/12/81: }
35 Sqd/Scampton (bombs held in Waddo SSA), 16/1/75-28/2/82: 8

9 Sqd/Akrotiri**, 26/2/69-31/12/74: 8
35 Sqd/Akrotiri**, 15/1/69-15/1/75: 8

9 Sqd/Waddington, 24/1/75-9/4/82: 8

36 rounds migrated to UK-based Tornado GR.1:
9 Sqd/Honington, 1/8/82-1/10/86: 12
27 Sqd/Marham, 12/8/83- 1/10/93: 12
617 Sqd/Marham, 16/5/83-31/3/94: 12

(PN has 53: maybe total inventory to sustain 48 serviceable)

(* 11/2/13 to clarify my sloppy phrase, PN #58: WE.177B (450Kt) was presented as a variant (so "no new") of (1963/64 pre-Wilson) WE.177 (0.5-10Kt), which was thus renamed WE.177A. ** amended 11/2/13 per PN #58 *** total becomes 48, 1/1/70)

[Pontius Navigator]

tornadoken, If I read them correctly you say the Vulcan had WE177A whereas they were of course the WE177B.

Then your figures show:

9 Sqd/Cottesmore, 9/66-25/2/69: 8
12 Sqd/Cottesmore, 9/66-29/12/67: 8
35 Sqd/Cottesmore, 9/66-14/1/69: 8
44 Sqd/Waddington, mid-67-21/12/82: 8
50 Sqd/Waddington, 10/66-30/6/82: 8
101 Sqd/Waddington, 1/1/68-4/8/82: 8

Of the 24 Waddington weapons, I held the keys but 4 weapons were held at Finningley. During generation I had to wait until I was told the weapon number before I could issue the key to the crew (IIRC).

That is 48 weapons but 12 and 101 didn't have the WE177 at the same time so that drops to 40. 50 sqn was certainly the first Mk 1A sqn to convert but the WE177 was not introduced until the war plan change on 1 Jul 68.

27 Sqd/Scampton (bombs held in Waddo SSA, ex-12 Sqd), 1/1/70-29/3/72: } 8 but they were MRR from end 1971.
617 Sqd/Scampton (bombs held in Waddo SSA, ex-12 Sqd), 1/1/71-31/12/81: }


9 Sqd/Akrotiri (bombs held at Tuxedo SSA, Cape Gata, Dhekelia): 26/2/69-31/12/74: 8
35 Sqd/Akrotiri (bombs held at Tuxedo SSA, Cape Gata, Dhekelia), 15/1/69-15/1/75: 8

I can't think why the bombs would have been stored in Dhekelia as Akrotiri had a perfectly adequate SSA of its own with 9 bunkers. You can get more than 2 WE177 in each bunker. Also, as far as I am aware, Cape Gata is on the Akrotiri peninsular. When we had generation exercises the weapons were certainly available minutes after startex. I am of the opinion that my source is better than the Soton one.

Now by my reckoning we should have had 56 WE177B but my source is adamant the there were only ever 53 and we lost one of those to a lightning strike. He said that 3 WE177A were issued to Akrotiri to bring there holding to 16 but I was not aware of that until 27 relinquished their weapons.

Returning to the dates, the production rate in 1967 was in the region of 4 WE177B per month.

[tornadoken]

(10/2 post on WE177B amended iaw PN 11/2)

WE.177C.
On 6/4/65 PM Wilson optioned 40 GR F-111K intended to support 24 U/E in FEAF. He could not take US weapons out-of-NATO-area, had pledged "no new nukes", so chose not to build No.4 SSBN shipset (48 warheads; no crew) but to assemble more WE.177B for them. After F-111K chop 16/1/68 they would have gone to Buccaneer S.2(RAF), 26 ordered 12/7/68, plus more ex-RN, for RAFG.

12/3/69 Defence Minister Healey approved a range of applications for WE177 (K.Stoddart {Soton U},Losing an Empire and Finding a Role, Palgrave,2012,P.220 labels all 172/RAF+ 43/RN as 177A, but the list included high-yield applications). But…
- AWRE lost 2 years' production, 1968-70, due to contamination. (HMS Resolution maiden patrol, 15/6/68 was with 50% of U/E warheads);
- 11/69 “Provisional Political Guidelines for the Initial Defensive Tactical Use of Nuclear Weapons by NATO” constrained to <200Kt. RAFG’s F-4M US B-61 were so dialled. WE177B was re-invented as WE177C, 190Kt. and 36 were deployed on Buccaneer S.2:
Laarbruch 15 Sqdn 31/12/72 -31/10/83
Laarbruch 16 Sqdn 8/1/73 - 29/2/84, re-inforced by 208 Sqdn/Honington, 1/7/74 - 2/80.

E.Heath got in, 6/70. He chose to displace RAFG F-4M/US Bombs with Jaguar: instead of 90 S+110 B trainers he changed to 35 T.2+165 GR.1. He chose to put WE177C on 60 to be in RAFG from 1975, providing all-British weapons to meet Saceur’s RAFG Task of 96 targets.
("No new nukes": I believe them to have been built from the 12 leftover from No.4 SSBN, plus conversion of 48xNo.3 A3Ts, planned to be displaced by Chevaline. That programme slipped to maiden patrol, 10/82, in part due, again, to AWE contamination 1978/82 (P.Malone,Br.Nucl. Deterrent, C.Helm, 84,P.125). RN juggled 3 boats x16 missiles x2 warheads to sustain 2x16x3 A3T at sea). Jaguar GR.1 served:
Brüggen 14 Sqdn(opnl: )1/12/75 - 1/11/85 (15 U/E)
17 Sqdn 1/2/76 - 1/3/85 (15)
31 Sqdn 30/6/76 - 1/11/84 (15)
20 Sqdn 1/3/77 - 30/6/84 (15)
detached from Coltishall: 6 Sqdn 1976 - 6/84
detached from Coltishall:54 Sqdn 1976 - 6/84

Tornado GR.1 took over all 96 WE177C:
Laarbruch 15 Sqdn (opnl: )1/11/83 - 31/12/91
16 Sqdn 29/2/84 - 11/9/91
20 Sqdn 30/6/84 - 31/5/92
Brüggen 31 Sqdn 1/11/84 - mid-95
17 Sqdn 1/3/85 - mid-95
14 Sqdn 1/11/85 - mid-95
9 Sqdn 1/10/86 - mid-95
detached from Honington:TWCU 1984 - mid-95 (1/12/83: 45(R) Sqdn)

[Pontius Navigator]

Tornadoken, I had some small input into Keith Stoddart's work.