Military AircrewA forum for the professionals who fly the non-civilian hardware, and the backroom boys and girls without whom nothing would leave the ground. Army, Navy and Airforces of the World, all equally welcome here.
Just to add to what some of the other posters have described and I appreciate this is not new for some, I have also asked the question of the CAA regarding adding an IR to my JAR CPL H gained under the previous mil bridging process. Good and bad news.
Good news - the CPL is still valid and an IR can be added, the skills test is still valid aswell.
Bad news - as expected the full 14 ATPL exams are required to add an IR, although I believe you can just do the 7 for the IR if you so wish.
Kind of good news - The ATPL theory trg DVD from Bristol is £500 (£2140 if you want the full residential courses aswell) and you do not have to complete the 2x2 weeks residential course, ie you can complete the online trg, revise with the question bank and book yourself on the exams. Of course, you could also just book yourself onto the exams and risk the question bank if you wish. Form SRG 2133 for Mil credit.
This is not the good news I wanted, but at least I know what the situ is after months of frustration, so at least I can start work (again!). I know from speaking to other colleagues with CPLs that there is still a lot of uncertainty and confused messages out there regarding the status of our licences, hopefully this adds to your understanding.
As a side note, I went through the 22 Gp liaision SO2, who was extremely helpful, knowledgeable and immediately got an answer to me from the CAA in approximately 5 months less than it took them (still waiting!). He struck me as a top chap, who did a secondary duty he was not resourced for anywhere close in terms of time and manpower. Perhaps time to stop throwing the spears and give him a break on here?
You may be onto something Dan! Just spoke to another colleague with a mil-bridged JAR Cpl H who is doing his IR in a couple of weeks, he has been told by his trg provider and also verbally by the CAA FCL that he still has the Atpl theory credit required to complete his IR.
I have asked him to get it in writing from them and will keep you updated as to his progress. Of course this is completely contrary to what I was told this morning!
This is the response that I have received from the CAA regarding the validity of my ATPL theory credits:
Thank you for your email received regarding Military credits and the new military scheme.
Details of the new Military Scheme can be found in CAP 804, Part O, ‘Credits for Military Pilots.’ Any queries regarding eligibility criteria and/or the military accreditation scheme should be directed in writing to: FT FJ SO2, Directorate of Flying Training, Building 1300, MoD Abbey Wood, BRISTOL, BS34 8JH or by e-mail to 22TrgGp-FT FJ1 SO2@mod.uk.
The UK CAA will not respond to any telephone or email enquiries from individual military applicants relating to the Military Accreditation Scheme.
Your message has not been forwarded.
This is a farce. The CAA issue licences and they won't even tell me what I need to do to get an IR
I think you will find that the CAA was generous under JAA, as it could within reason do what it wanted, however we are entering the legal niceties of EU law and the hands of our regulator are tied, I think we may find that 22 Gp and the CAA have done their best for us within the letter of the legislation they have to work within.
Location: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
The CAA was pragmatic under JAA
Under JAA, military accreditation as agreed by the MCWG was acceptable for at least 10 years and posed no safety risk whatsoever.
Regrettably the 'befehl ist befehl' attitude of EASA shows totally inadequate flexibility. The loss of the previous system is undoubtedly an unintended consequence of the €urocratic nonsense now pervading our lives.
SAR Bloke, 22 Gp is not the regulator, the CAA is. If 22 Gp cannot sort out your problem within a reasonable period of time (10 working days is the CAA requirement, although they don't like people knowing that), then write instead to your MP asking him/her to put a formal question to the Secretary of State for Transport. You may wish to copy the letter to.....
The CAA are acting like Uriah Heep, whereas perhaps a more Churchillian stance should have been taken several years ago....
The way the CAA have decided to deal with the transition to EASA licensing in both the pilot and ground engineer fields is rather disappointing with the most restrictive interpretation of the new EASA rules almost always being applied.
I have been quite lucky with both my pilots licence being converted without much of a problem, the Ground engineering licence was a bit different.
I decided to convert from the UK licence to EASA as soon as I could as I guessed that the CAA had not had time to fully interprate the rules, the result of this was that I managed to persuade the guy who issued the new licence to take the most liberal interpretation of the EASA rules that he could.
Five or so years on when ever we have a CAA audit and I have to produce my engineers licence there is usually a deep intake of breath from the inspector and comments along the lines that they won't be issuing any more licences like this !
That is not to say that EASA rules forbid issuing the license, but the CAA have made the rules so tight that it is almost imposable.
The Greeks who had no engineering licence system before EASA and so took the view that they would issue any one who had held a spanner near an aircraft an EASA licence no doubt on the grounds that this was good for business.
I fear that the CAA FCL has well and truly lost the plot and hangs on to the little power that they have in order to protect jobs while ignoring the elephant in the room......................after all we know they are now only the UK office of EASA, it is about time they started acting like a sub post office for the boys in Cologne.
Now you could attempt to play the Bruxelles Brigade at their own detail-intensive game...
Define "they shall apply to the Member State where they served"?
I have served in Europe whilst flying military aircraft in the following countries - France, Denmark, Holland, Germany, Spain, Norway, Sweden, Italy, Portugal, Luxembourg, Belgium, Austria, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Greece and Cyprus.
Can I take my pick?
Last edited by Leon Jabachjabicz; 1st Aug 2012 at 20:09.
Location: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
Leon, nice try!
Although the €urobabble from EASA ('proportionality', 'comitology' and 'subsidiarity' being examples of their fractured €urospeak) often requires interpretation, I can't see you getting away with that one!
70 years ago, the RAF 'served' in Köln in a rather more positive manner than has been achieved recently.....
For those of us stuck with the semi-useful CPLs who have 'lost' their Atpl theory credits, an update:
I spoke to our helpful CAA liaison at 22Gp today and it sounds like (and contrary to yesterday's position) the CAA may honour the ATPL theory credits after all, this is being pushed hard from 22Gp and they believe we will have a final answer by Monday. Currently crossing lots of fingers!!
Location: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
Well, that's good news, SimonK! It would certainly seem to meet the provisions of Article 9 of the Basic Regulation:
Credit for training commenced prior to the application of this Regulation
1. In respect of issuing Part-FCL licences in accordance with Annex I, training commenced prior to the application of this Regulation in accordance with the Joint Aviation Authorities requirements and procedures, under the regulatory oversight of a Member State recommended for mutual recognition within the Joint Aviation Authorities’ system in relation to the relevant JAR, shall be given full credit provided that the training and testing were completed by 8 April 2016 at the latest.
Perhaps the CAA is becoming increasingly aware of the dissatisfaction with which the MAS has been received by many?
Whilst it doesn't specifically talk about bridging credits, it does say that if all the exams conducted for the issue of a licence have been completed by the end of March then you will retain theory credit subject to the normal calendar validity restrictions. The CAA could easily argue the case that we haven't done all of the exams but, to me, it reads that the spirit of the rule is not to penalise those who have achieved theory credit prior to the changeover.
Perhaps the CAA have now realised that they can't retrospectively apply the new regulations to ATPL theory credits gained through the old military accreditation system. If they tried to do so, then they would find dozens of pilots already flying with airlines "illegally"!
Whilst they can certainly stop issuing new credits, they must be on dodgy legal ground if they stop recognising credits issued before Apr 12.
So would Article 9 apply to a skills test which was conducted before 08 Apr 12?
If "training and testing" for the skills test was completed on a civvie type but with a QFI/QHI and within 6 months of the present day, assuming you've passed all the ATPL exams then can we use Article 9 to apply for a CPL?
3.14 Credits available for QMP(H)s who hold or have held an Operational Category to operate military multi-pilot helicopters for an ATPL(H) and IR(H)
QMP(H)s who hold or have held an Operational Category with a Military Unrestricted Green Instrument Rating (Helicopter) to operate military multi-pilot helicopters shall meet all the requirements for the issue of a Part-FCL ATPL(H) and IR(H) for helicopters.
Refer to: Section 4, Part F, Subpart 2 for the full ATPL(H) requirements.
Section 4, Part F, Subpart 2 for the full ATPL(H) requirements:
FCL.500 Minimum Age Applicants for an ATPL(H) shall be at least 21 years of age. FCL.505 Privileges and Conditions As above. FCL.510.H ATPL(H) – Prerequisites, experience and crediting Applicants for an ATPL(H) shall:
(a)hold a CPL(H) and a multi-pilot helicopter type rating and have received instruction in MCC;
(b) have completed as a pilot of helicopters a minimum of 1000 hours of flight time including at least:
(1) 350 hours in multi-pilot helicopters;
(2) (i) 250 hours as PIC; or
(ii) 100 hours as PIC and 150 hours as PIC under supervision; or
(iii) 250 hours as PIC under supervision in multi-pilot helicopters. In this case, the ATPL(H) privileges shall be limited to multi-pilot operations only, until 100 hours as PIC have been completed;
(3) 200 hours of cross-country flight time of which at least 100 hours shall be as PIC or as PIC under supervision;
(4) 30 hours of instrument time of which not more than 10 hours may be instrument ground time; and
(5) 100 hours of night flight as PIC or as co-pilot. Of the 1000 hours, a maximum of 100 hours may have been completed in an FSTD, of which not more than 25 hours may be completed in an FNPT.
(c) Flight time in aeroplanes shall be credited up to 50% against the flight time requirements of paragraph (b).
(d) The experience required in (b) shall be completed before the skill test for the ATPL(H) is taken. FCL.515 Training Course and Theoretical Knowledge Examinations
(a) Course. Applicants for an ATPL(H) shall have completed a training course at an ATO. The course shall be either an integrated training course or a modular course, in accordance with Appendix 3 to this Part. (Refer to 1.5 Additional Information.)
(b) Examination. Applicants for an ATPL(H) shall demonstrate a level of knowledge appropriate to the privileges granted in the following subjects:
— Air Law,
— Aircraft General Knowledge - Airframe/Systems/Power plant,
— Aircraft General Knowledge – Instrumentation,
— Mass and Balance,
— Flight Planning and Monitoring,
— Human Performance,
￼￼May 2012 Section 4 Part F, Subpart 2 Page 2 CAP 804 Part I Flight Crew Licensing: Mandatory Requirements, Policy and Guidance
— General Navigation,
— Radio Navigation,
— Operational Procedures,
— Principles of Flight,
— VFR Communications,
— IFR Communications. FCL.520.H ATPL(H) Skill Test Applicants for an ATPL(H) shall pass a skill test in accordance with Appendix 9 to Part-FCL to demonstrate the ability to perform as PIC of a multi-pilot helicopter the relevant procedures and manoeuvres with the competency appropriate to the privileges granted. The skill test shall be taken in the helicopter or an adequately qualified FFS representing the same type.
I must be stupid as it is not Xmas but isn't the first paragraph telling me that as I ve been CR, Green rated I get credited with ground exams and Skill Test and IR? Or is it telling me that I have to meet all of the above despite my 3000 Hrs experience by spunking a lot of cash on courses and tests?
Forgive me for not posting the exact details of the email, but 22Gp and the CAA have reached an agreement and the CAA will be recognising Atpl theory credits for Cpls issued under mil bridging prior to the JAR cutoff. A note has been circulated from 22Gp with the full detail so keep your eyes out.
Simply awesome news and credit where credits due: thank you very much 22Gp and the CAA.