Black Buck Alternatives
Re: Tornado
You would have to mod the RB199s oil tanks as it would have run out of oil on the bomb run! That said, the F3 had bigger oil tanks and I once did 10hrs15min accross Alaska and Canada - yes, you're right it would be a real ball-buster even if the jet could be modded.
LJ
You would have to mod the RB199s oil tanks as it would have run out of oil on the bomb run! That said, the F3 had bigger oil tanks and I once did 10hrs15min accross Alaska and Canada - yes, you're right it would be a real ball-buster even if the jet could be modded.
LJ
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
The Vulcan OTOH had already proven an ability to fly that distance and with only 3 prods, well half as far again as it happens albeit a Mk 1. That it only needed 3 prods would have been down to better sfc and the availability of diversions along much of the route.
The oil consumption rate of RB199s varies quite a lot. The maximum rate allowed before the engine is rejected is about 1 litre per hour, and it was this rate upon which the broad guidance of 8hrs max was written (10hrs with the slightly bigger tanks of the F3 engines corresponds to the rough same guidance). However a nice, tight, newly overhauled engine might only burn oil at a third of that rate - meaning a 24-hour sortie could be possible with careful selection of engines (not to mention selection of aircrew for arse padding and bladder size!). I would have liked a gauge to show the oil contents, rather than a caption to tell me I'd run out - and a sail for dinghy, to try and sail my way to safety if it all went wrong!
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1 Herc then into the oggin
I was always curious about this when I flew Hercs.
My assumption was that with no more than one refuel, the Herc could get overhead, drop, turn back and hope to find a tanker again.
Couldn't be the hardest thing in the world to get reasonable accuracy with dumb bombs, and not beyond the ingenuity of the boffins to hook up navigation for the ordinance to ensure a DH.
If no tanker available, then descend to a reasonable altitude, drop a boat and some rafts out the back of Albert, then parachute the crew out into the oggin.
One aircraft lost, but crew safe, and bombs on target
Expensive, but far less logistics than is required to get a fuel-hungry jet bomber backwards and forwards to the Falklands.
Enormous fun, as well!
My assumption was that with no more than one refuel, the Herc could get overhead, drop, turn back and hope to find a tanker again.
Couldn't be the hardest thing in the world to get reasonable accuracy with dumb bombs, and not beyond the ingenuity of the boffins to hook up navigation for the ordinance to ensure a DH.
If no tanker available, then descend to a reasonable altitude, drop a boat and some rafts out the back of Albert, then parachute the crew out into the oggin.
One aircraft lost, but crew safe, and bombs on target
Expensive, but far less logistics than is required to get a fuel-hungry jet bomber backwards and forwards to the Falklands.
Enormous fun, as well!
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
GA,
The airbridge involved two tankers and one refuelling out of ASI but no prod on the return flight.
Before there was an airstrip on the FI the herc used to fly non-stop from ASI; I don't know but I imagine in would have needed at least a second prod on the way home.
And of course you overlook the shortage of speed and the need to fit ECM for flight in the MEZ, but back to Archimedes point; who would have been afraid of that fat albert might overfly down town BA with a tactical nuke.
Don't lose sight of the message.
The airbridge involved two tankers and one refuelling out of ASI but no prod on the return flight.
Before there was an airstrip on the FI the herc used to fly non-stop from ASI; I don't know but I imagine in would have needed at least a second prod on the way home.
And of course you overlook the shortage of speed and the need to fit ECM for flight in the MEZ, but back to Archimedes point; who would have been afraid of that fat albert might overfly down town BA with a tactical nuke.
Don't lose sight of the message.
The point you are missing PN is that on the airbridge although the C130 did not need a prod on the way home, it took off with max fuel from Stanley so , in the scenario suggested, of course it would need AAR on the way home. The other point is that the lack of common speed with the Victor made the planning a bit more difficult. How many prods did the Herc make on its long-range drops during the conflict?
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Bone question but what provision would there be in a Herc to accurately (Stanley is uncomfortably close to the aerodrome for any impact errors) bomb visually or on H2S equivalent? Also, I imagine that a low ingress and climb to release height would have been a bit interesting.
Regarding Nimrods, I expect JEZ' could have given a reasonable RADAR picture but with little provision for visual aiming; not forgetting no immediate equivalent to NBS. Additionally, I find it difficult to see how an AAR equiped Nimrod could perform as efficiently as a built for purpose Vulcan. I also remember that we we were still involved in a hide and seek game with Uncle Ivan at the time. That didn't seem to leave many gash MR/ASW assets to mod/retrain for mud moving, particularly as ASW FFs and SSNs were pulled from NATO task to go South.
Regarding Nimrods, I expect JEZ' could have given a reasonable RADAR picture but with little provision for visual aiming; not forgetting no immediate equivalent to NBS. Additionally, I find it difficult to see how an AAR equiped Nimrod could perform as efficiently as a built for purpose Vulcan. I also remember that we we were still involved in a hide and seek game with Uncle Ivan at the time. That didn't seem to leave many gash MR/ASW assets to mod/retrain for mud moving, particularly as ASW FFs and SSNs were pulled from NATO task to go South.
Also, IIRC the Victor did not have the Calc 3 ballistics computer?
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Vasco, perhaps you would care to point out where I missed the point?
as this left open the option for a 3rd or even 4th?
True but they managed with the Victor refuelling the long Herc and also on the long-range drops, a difficulty therefore recognised and dealt with.
I imagine in would have needed at least a second prod
lack of common speed with the Victor made the planning a bit more difficult
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Bone question but what provision would there be in a Herc to accurately (Stanley is uncomfortably close to the aerodrome for any impact errors) bomb visually or on H2S equivalent? Also, I imagine that a low ingress and climb to release height would have been a bit interesting.
Regarding Nimrods, I expect JEZ' could have given a reasonable RADAR picture but with little provision for visual aiming; not forgetting no immediate equivalent to NBS.
I also remember that we we were still involved in a hide and seek game with Uncle Ivan at the time. That didn't seem to leave many gash MR/ASW assets to mod/retrain for mud moving, particularly as ASW FFs and SSNs were pulled from NATO task to go South.
Pontious Navigator,
"stupid mistake of believing ppr00ne?"
You said the B2 was NEVER a bomber, which was untrue. It WAS a bomber, it was introduced as a bomber but appears to have been left in permanent Blue Steel fit post 1964. So it WAS a bomber, fitted with the Calc 3 ballistics computer and serving as a bomber until retirement in December 1968.
I think what you meant to say was that it was never in free fall fit after 1964, therefore would not have been a candidate for free fall bomber use in 1982, a statement with which I would agree.
Alertken,
I responded to the post by Pontious Navigator that the "B2 was never a bomber" which is clearly not true. Even a Victor B2 in Blue Steel fit is still a strategic bomber. His point about the free fall fit however is totally valid in terms of potential use in 1982.
"stupid mistake of believing ppr00ne?"
You said the B2 was NEVER a bomber, which was untrue. It WAS a bomber, it was introduced as a bomber but appears to have been left in permanent Blue Steel fit post 1964. So it WAS a bomber, fitted with the Calc 3 ballistics computer and serving as a bomber until retirement in December 1968.
I think what you meant to say was that it was never in free fall fit after 1964, therefore would not have been a candidate for free fall bomber use in 1982, a statement with which I would agree.
Alertken,
I responded to the post by Pontious Navigator that the "B2 was never a bomber" which is clearly not true. Even a Victor B2 in Blue Steel fit is still a strategic bomber. His point about the free fall fit however is totally valid in terms of potential use in 1982.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
pr00ne, agreed. It was still my stupid mistake, I didn't say you were stupid. I also meant bomber in the pure sense rather than missile carrier.
The B47 carried a missile and was also a free-fall aircraft. The B52 was also a bomber and missile carrier at the same time. In the case of the Blue Steel aircraft they were of course pure missile carriers unless extensively reconverted to FF.
I know some Vulcans were converted to carry BS and presumably Command had the foresight to store the original conventional bomb doors. Where the Victor bomb doors also left in storage or were the Mk 2s earmarked as tankers once the BS was taken out of service?
PS
As I recall the Mk 2s were not worked up in the conventional role until 1964. The Victor 1s had the Far East and The Vulcan 1s had the Near East (the Valiants before that). The Coningsby Mk 2s were the first to work up for the Far East in 1964. Prior to that both Victor 2 and Vulcan 2 were worked up in their primary role. It is possible therefore that the Victor 2 never had the 90-way kit installed.
The B47 carried a missile and was also a free-fall aircraft. The B52 was also a bomber and missile carrier at the same time. In the case of the Blue Steel aircraft they were of course pure missile carriers unless extensively reconverted to FF.
I know some Vulcans were converted to carry BS and presumably Command had the foresight to store the original conventional bomb doors. Where the Victor bomb doors also left in storage or were the Mk 2s earmarked as tankers once the BS was taken out of service?
PS
As I recall the Mk 2s were not worked up in the conventional role until 1964. The Victor 1s had the Far East and The Vulcan 1s had the Near East (the Valiants before that). The Coningsby Mk 2s were the first to work up for the Far East in 1964. Prior to that both Victor 2 and Vulcan 2 were worked up in their primary role. It is possible therefore that the Victor 2 never had the 90-way kit installed.
Last edited by Pontius Navigator; 30th Jan 2012 at 15:41.
C Met O STC was in a very early huddle on day one, and phoned me [P Met O 1 Group Bawtry, me looking after the Vulcans and Victors] when he emerged and told me "the bastards have done it", which I understood, and then "not that anyone thinks your lot are going to be involved".
Crappy forecast, boss.
Crappy forecast, boss.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Where I was . . .
Is this moving into a where I was thread?
I was sitting behind Ewen Southby-Tailyour.
I was sitting behind Ewen Southby-Tailyour.