Fears for Pentagon air power as Iran claims drone capture
Now that article is interesting, if only to show that there is no lateral thinking going on.
If the RQ was jammed then it should pick up the emergency mission and fly back until, either:
1. It re-establishes comms with the SAT link (you wouldn't have to go far from your jamming source to vastly reduce the effect of the jammer as free space path loss of signals is logarithmic over distance (in dB it is 20Log(distance)+20log(frequency)+32.45)) - it's energy is dispersed under an inverse square law.
2. It establishes link with a LOS link (if it has one?).
Now, if the jammer shown in the article fried the avionics (and it would need a lot of power to do that) then this is not just a threat to remotely piloted aircraft, but also to manned aviation. Why? Because just about every aircraft flying in the military today has digital fuel control modules, engine management, fly-by-wire, communications/datalinks, RADARs and other avionics. So if the RQ became unflyable due to its kit getting fried by this supposed "wonder weapon" then we had best wheel out the Spitfires, Hurricanes and Lancaster from BBMF! However, as seen above to fry avionics over long distances would require huge amounts of power concentrated right on the SAT dish - unlikely from the ground also, due to geometry.
So I reckon it had an engine failure, the AD Cdr that "claimed it" got lucky and the Iranians now have a piece equipment that the US would rather they did not.
LJ
If the RQ was jammed then it should pick up the emergency mission and fly back until, either:
1. It re-establishes comms with the SAT link (you wouldn't have to go far from your jamming source to vastly reduce the effect of the jammer as free space path loss of signals is logarithmic over distance (in dB it is 20Log(distance)+20log(frequency)+32.45)) - it's energy is dispersed under an inverse square law.
2. It establishes link with a LOS link (if it has one?).
Now, if the jammer shown in the article fried the avionics (and it would need a lot of power to do that) then this is not just a threat to remotely piloted aircraft, but also to manned aviation. Why? Because just about every aircraft flying in the military today has digital fuel control modules, engine management, fly-by-wire, communications/datalinks, RADARs and other avionics. So if the RQ became unflyable due to its kit getting fried by this supposed "wonder weapon" then we had best wheel out the Spitfires, Hurricanes and Lancaster from BBMF! However, as seen above to fry avionics over long distances would require huge amounts of power concentrated right on the SAT dish - unlikely from the ground also, due to geometry.
So I reckon it had an engine failure, the AD Cdr that "claimed it" got lucky and the Iranians now have a piece equipment that the US would rather they did not.
LJ
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I read about that so called 'jamming device' and took it with a pinch of the proverbial.
Would Iran show all the working innards of that UAV and would they then tell the World how they managed to over ride the command and control of that aircraft.
Apart from industrial espionage, it is sadly very much a fact of life that money talks and loyalty can walk.
Would Iran show all the working innards of that UAV and would they then tell the World how they managed to over ride the command and control of that aircraft.
Apart from industrial espionage, it is sadly very much a fact of life that money talks and loyalty can walk.
500N: Flying wings can be very stable. The sweep back gives them directional stability and dihedral effect. With forwardish centre of gravity and a bit of washout on the tips (trailing edge higher than leading edge) they will glide very happily by themselves. BBC - Earth News - Vine seeds become 'giant gliders'
If someone wanted to deliver a gliding mock up into Iran they could do this with a couple of radio control servos, a GPS plus something to link the two. All it would need is to be pre-programmed to steer towards a chosen landing point. Some current UAVs do this if their engine stops, they glide to pre-programmed, reasonably flat, remote areas and go into a descending circuit until the ground gets in the way. If the programmer is clever, he sets it so it turns into the forecast wind at, say, 300ft and glides straight ahead. Some land with almost no damage.
People have towed free flight gliders with radio controlled or even other free flight models. It can be done.
Leon Jabachjabicz
Firstly I think you are right, that the thing had an engine failure before or after entering 'return home' mode, and came down either where gravity took it on the return home route, or to a pre-programmed empty space.
History; don't forget J.W. Dunne's tailless aircraft from the First World War. he even sold the designs to the Americans. Some were biplanes, others monoplanes.
Terminology; RPVs, RPAS, UAVs, UAS, UMA or drones. At least drone can cover them all, and doesn't just tell you what it isn't. Not all UAVs are remotely piloted; some are pre-programmed or 'think' for themselves once airborne, and when does an aeroplane become a system? Most modern aircraft, particularly military ones, are part of a system as they are of limited use without their ground support equipment, air traffic control, etc.
Jamesdevice wrote:
This sounds contradictory. Is this what you are really trying to say?:
Early flying wings were all very stable but could be sensitive in pitch if trimmed with a rearward centre of gravity to allow them to be efficient. Its only really the use of modern computer systems (neutral stability +fly by wire) that enables them to fly efficiently.
If someone wanted to deliver a gliding mock up into Iran they could do this with a couple of radio control servos, a GPS plus something to link the two. All it would need is to be pre-programmed to steer towards a chosen landing point. Some current UAVs do this if their engine stops, they glide to pre-programmed, reasonably flat, remote areas and go into a descending circuit until the ground gets in the way. If the programmer is clever, he sets it so it turns into the forecast wind at, say, 300ft and glides straight ahead. Some land with almost no damage.
People have towed free flight gliders with radio controlled or even other free flight models. It can be done.
Leon Jabachjabicz
Firstly I think you are right, that the thing had an engine failure before or after entering 'return home' mode, and came down either where gravity took it on the return home route, or to a pre-programmed empty space.
History; don't forget J.W. Dunne's tailless aircraft from the First World War. he even sold the designs to the Americans. Some were biplanes, others monoplanes.
Terminology; RPVs, RPAS, UAVs, UAS, UMA or drones. At least drone can cover them all, and doesn't just tell you what it isn't. Not all UAVs are remotely piloted; some are pre-programmed or 'think' for themselves once airborne, and when does an aeroplane become a system? Most modern aircraft, particularly military ones, are part of a system as they are of limited use without their ground support equipment, air traffic control, etc.
Jamesdevice wrote:
those early flying wings were all very stable and very difficult to control. Its really only modern computer control systems that enable them to fly.
Can't see anyone wasting that money on a fake.
Can't see anyone wasting that money on a fake.
Early flying wings were all very stable but could be sensitive in pitch if trimmed with a rearward centre of gravity to allow them to be efficient. Its only really the use of modern computer systems (neutral stability +fly by wire) that enables them to fly efficiently.
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self destruct device
Please tell me the US installs self destruct devices on these advanced tech drones and that this malfunctioned.
Otherwise my guess is it was meant to fall into Iranian hands and is still transmitting!
Otherwise my guess is it was meant to fall into Iranian hands and is still transmitting!
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Mechta
That isn't what I meant to say, but I'll defer to your better knowledge. If thats the case I'll not argue
Avtobaza jammer
from Kvant 1L222 Avtobaza Electronic Intelligence (ELINT) system | Defense Update
" Each 1L222 system includes an passive ELINT signals interception system and a jamming module capable of disrupting airborne radars including fire control radars, terrain following radars and ground mapping radars as well as weapon (missile) data links."
How vulnerable is a drone which has had terrain and ground mapping radar disabled?
When I was looking earlier I did find a couple of comments suggesting that the device COULD fry circuitry. However they were unreferenced and at face value hard to believe
That isn't what I meant to say, but I'll defer to your better knowledge. If thats the case I'll not argue
Avtobaza jammer
from Kvant 1L222 Avtobaza Electronic Intelligence (ELINT) system | Defense Update
" Each 1L222 system includes an passive ELINT signals interception system and a jamming module capable of disrupting airborne radars including fire control radars, terrain following radars and ground mapping radars as well as weapon (missile) data links."
How vulnerable is a drone which has had terrain and ground mapping radar disabled?
When I was looking earlier I did find a couple of comments suggesting that the device COULD fry circuitry. However they were unreferenced and at face value hard to believe
Jamesdevice,
Depending upon the level of redundancy the RQ-170 designers buit in, it would be likely to have some sort of inertial navigation system as a backup to any GPS or terrain interpreting system (I don't know if the latter exists). Assuming that areasonable degree of electromagnetic shielding has been built into the avionics boxes, an inertial navigation system, I would have thought, would keep working. Maybe that Avtobasa sytem played a part in helping the remote operator lose his uplink, and send the RQ-170 into a 'return home' mode, but I think that its unlikely to have directly permanently damaged anything onboard.
Hexboy, The Americans may have systems to burn out components if the RQ-170 is believed lost after its flight duration, but putting explosives in it runs the risk of bad publicity if it is first found by children who are subsequently maimed or killed by it intentionally exploding. After all, America has not yet declared war on Iran. Surveillance and espionage is all part of the 'game'. Once it turns to indiscriminate killing by the Americans, the Americans may be seen by the world to have stepped things up a gear. They don't want another 'USS Vincennes'.
Temprarily losing an uplink is not that uncommon with UAVs, so operators wouldn't want to destroy it until they were absolutely sure they wouldn't get it back.
Depending upon the level of redundancy the RQ-170 designers buit in, it would be likely to have some sort of inertial navigation system as a backup to any GPS or terrain interpreting system (I don't know if the latter exists). Assuming that areasonable degree of electromagnetic shielding has been built into the avionics boxes, an inertial navigation system, I would have thought, would keep working. Maybe that Avtobasa sytem played a part in helping the remote operator lose his uplink, and send the RQ-170 into a 'return home' mode, but I think that its unlikely to have directly permanently damaged anything onboard.
Hexboy, The Americans may have systems to burn out components if the RQ-170 is believed lost after its flight duration, but putting explosives in it runs the risk of bad publicity if it is first found by children who are subsequently maimed or killed by it intentionally exploding. After all, America has not yet declared war on Iran. Surveillance and espionage is all part of the 'game'. Once it turns to indiscriminate killing by the Americans, the Americans may be seen by the world to have stepped things up a gear. They don't want another 'USS Vincennes'.
Temprarily losing an uplink is not that uncommon with UAVs, so operators wouldn't want to destroy it until they were absolutely sure they wouldn't get it back.
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Temprarily losing an uplink is not that uncommon with UAVs, so operators wouldn't want to destroy it until they were absolutely sure they wouldn't get it back.
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So do you still think they are still hoping the Iranians are going to pop it in the mail?
Is it possible that the innards of this drone have now also been flat packed and being returned to the USA via Iran School of Stealth Technology, China, Russia and anyone else willing to pay for the privilege of handling this imitation state of the art UAV that was deliberately deposited into the centre of Azadi Square. Mr Google
No doubt neither the Chinese nor the Russians will peek at the contents of those boxes.
So do you still think they are still hoping the Iranians are going to pop it in the mail?
Not until the Chinese have measured taken measurements and filled eB*y with models of it. They're cutting it fine though, if they are to arrive in time for Christmas...
In some of those images it looks much smaller compared to structures in the photos.
Look at the canopies in the open (F-18?) canopies in the background
http://www.uasvision.com/wp-content/...0_enhanced.jpg
Or the small tower in this pictures:
http://elhangardetj.********.com/
Or in this image compared to the AN 26 in the background:
Edit: Does this Link work?
DOPPELADLER.COM | Thema anzeigen - OT: USA bestätigen Einsatz von RQ-170 "Sentinel" in Pakistan
6th picture from the Top shows an AN 32 (rather than 26 as I wrote) in the background on the right.
That thing seems actually quite small.
Looking at those images the size in the pictures shown by the Iranians seems reasonable.
Last edited by henra; 11th Dec 2011 at 08:09.
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Would the USA over fly Iranian air space with a toy replica full of advanced technology just to 'fool' the opposition?
Analysis at the following link.
IN-DEPTH PHOTO ANALYSIS OF THE SUPPOSED RQ-170 SENTINEL DRONE IN IRANIAN HANDS | aviationintel
IN-DEPTH PHOTO ANALYSIS OF THE SUPPOSED RQ-170 SENTINEL DRONE IN IRANIAN HANDS | aviationintel
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TEEEJ
I read that the other day (on another computer so couldn't post the link),
a very interesting analysis.
I notice he mentions carbon fiber which is interesting.
Mechta
Thanks for the explanation to my questions re gliding.
I read that the other day (on another computer so couldn't post the link),
a very interesting analysis.
I notice he mentions carbon fiber which is interesting.
Mechta
Thanks for the explanation to my questions re gliding.
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US asks Iran to return captured drone
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Difficult to believe that the Iranians would have the ability to "hack" into a drone's control systems, if this was the case then I'm sure that a few more drones would have gone missing in Afghanistan (although would such losses be in the public domain?)
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We have gone through numerous pages of folks claiming this was a fake drone that was deliberately landed in Iran just to make that country look silly. We are now claiming the thing is real but it had a 'technical' malfunction and simply glided down to earth and somehow landed intact!!
I TOTALLY accept technical items of any type be they in a computer, car, tank, refrigerator or aircraft will always at some time fail to operate correctly b ut in this specific case, I just do not buy that excuse.
How long do we want the list of US military equipment having 'technical' issues that have caused them to crash or be destroyed?? My befuddled memory tells me that the last case of a 'technical' issue comparable to this was the helicopter that 'could not take off' after it developed 'technical' issues in the compound at the home of Bin Laden. Before that I can recall an Apache aircraft that was allegedly shot down over Iraq by a very old farmer with an antiquated rifle. The US claimed the thing had been forced to land because of 'technical' issues and the aircraft had subsequently been destroyed by an F-15E. The problem with that claim was that those of us with satellite TV saw this same helicopter on the back of a low loader being driven into an embassy compound in Baghdad!!
My thoughts are still that the US has been 'outsmarted' and they are now paying the price. My personal observations are that.... 'Please may I have my ball back' is unlikely to wash unless the USA makes Iran an offer they CANNOT refuse.
I TOTALLY accept technical items of any type be they in a computer, car, tank, refrigerator or aircraft will always at some time fail to operate correctly b ut in this specific case, I just do not buy that excuse.
How long do we want the list of US military equipment having 'technical' issues that have caused them to crash or be destroyed?? My befuddled memory tells me that the last case of a 'technical' issue comparable to this was the helicopter that 'could not take off' after it developed 'technical' issues in the compound at the home of Bin Laden. Before that I can recall an Apache aircraft that was allegedly shot down over Iraq by a very old farmer with an antiquated rifle. The US claimed the thing had been forced to land because of 'technical' issues and the aircraft had subsequently been destroyed by an F-15E. The problem with that claim was that those of us with satellite TV saw this same helicopter on the back of a low loader being driven into an embassy compound in Baghdad!!
My thoughts are still that the US has been 'outsmarted' and they are now paying the price. My personal observations are that.... 'Please may I have my ball back' is unlikely to wash unless the USA makes Iran an offer they CANNOT refuse.
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Oh I don't know, if you where someone like the Chinese, or Russians and wanted to get experiance into blocking and or hacking into the latest and greatest of your enemy how would you do it.
Oh thats it, go somewhere where they are inevatibly sending assets into or really close to a country that you can deal with. Just sit back and play with your latest Chinese or Russian toys and see what happens. If lucky let said country have some photo ops.
Oh thats it, go somewhere where they are inevatibly sending assets into or really close to a country that you can deal with. Just sit back and play with your latest Chinese or Russian toys and see what happens. If lucky let said country have some photo ops.
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Originally Posted by 500N
In brief, what do you think the full story is now
Risky thing putting one's head above the parapet but I possibly go along roughly with the comments of rh200
Countries that want to find out just how good the US technology is can safely enter Iran, set up their detection equipment and then play to their hearts content without fear of interruption and just wait for these drones to fly over.
If you insult me once more fool you,
If you insult me twice then more fool me.
In other words if the US continually over fly the same area then they are asking for trouble.... Or to be detected. I understand that nothing is completely invisible, it is just harder to detect.