Military AircrewA forum for the professionals who fly the non-civilian hardware, and the backroom boys and girls without whom nothing would leave the ground. Army, Navy and Airforces of the World, all equally welcome here.
Hello everyone. First I would like to say it is very pleasant to be a member on this forum and I am looking forward to having a chat with you all.
I thought I'd might start a new thread rather than jumping in on someones' conversation, just to be polite and all, so I thought it might be a good idea to start one about the potential sales of the Eurofighter Typhoon to India and Japan.
So I'm just wondering what your thoughts are and do you think the Eurofighter Typhoon has a serious chance of winning in these two countries?
I'll look forward to chatting with you about this.
I'm a little more optimistic re Japan, The Japanese are making the right noises to Eurofighter GmbH, however it does remain to be seen if the Typhoon is being used as a stalking horse for an American product.
(Its having the desired effect, after the shock the US got in India they are offering more than ever before inc local JSF production!! and thats for a non partner country too!!)
It would surprise me too in Japan went for Typhoon, but...
The requirement is for air defense, which is why they wanted the F-22's acceleration, speed, altitude and load-out. Typhoon is closer to the F-22 in those respects than anything else.
The Super Hornet is good for a lot of missions that JASDF is not going to do with this aircraft (like CAS and FAC-A) and is certainly not the world's speed champion (although the EPE engine and conformals help). The USN, on paper, also plans to start retiring it in 2030. They won't, of course, but questioning the program of record means questioning plans for the F-35C, which is non-career-enhancing.
The F-35 still has no fixed acquisition or operating costs, or IOC date, and equally is not going to win speed records. In stealth mode it carries four AIM-120s, and radar aperture is smaller than the Typhoon.
Result: turning down the Europeans has a higher-than-usual price tag for Japan.
F-35C has the real estate to fit more than 4 x AIM-120 internally. LM even have a 'demonstration' rig on how they can achieve this and it really is possible to do so. With an external AIM-120 loadout to add to the internal carriage capability, F-35 would match or even exceed carriage capability of modern 4th Gen platforms and still remain more stealthy than Typhoon.
Typhoon has a mech-scan radar designed in the 1980s; F-35 has the world's most advanced AESA radar currently fielded - it's in a different league altogether. So, until a Typhoon export comes with a proven, capable AESA radar it's 'money for old rope'
I'd bet on a deal between the US and Japan, for what it's worth. Why? If the Japanese were prepared to part with the cash for F-22 ($200M per copy?), $$ are clearly not a huge concern in their final choice; 5th gen capabilities are.
Last edited by ICBM; 9th Oct 2011 at 20:45.
Reason: Spolling
Low Obs said "turning down the Europeans has a higher-than-usual price tag for Japan."
Perhaps going with Europe would have a higher-than-usual price tag for Japan
One thing to consider for Japan in terms of price tag will be the potential for Europe to turn it's back on Japan, if Japan and China faced off.
There are still plenty of people in Australia who bitterly recal the attitude of France, Sweden, Switzerland and especially Britain (who we supposedly had a long and close relationship with) during the 1960's when they refused to supply ammunition, parts or support for Mirage, Pilatus Porter, and Canberra bombers in the RAAF and Australian Army due to our involvement in Vietnam. Japan would be much more likely to have continuing support from USA rather than from Europe.
ICBM - Real estate's not worth much without plumbing and power, and the 6X internal AMRAAM story is not that simple. If you have a public link to a "demonstration rig" it would be interesting to see it.
The F-35 does not have the world's most advanced AESA currently fielded - because it does not have anything fielded. When it does it will be part of the same technology stream as everything else.
I'm not sure of the relevance of your point concerning the smaller radar aperture of the F35 vice the Typhoon. If it's radar capability you are hinting at then I would much rather have the Litening IIs AESA in front of me than the Captor.
I think your point about what the Japanese want a new fighter for is much more relevant however. F35 does not really suit their requirements for a missile truck as well as some other platforms out there.
As for me, I wouldn't completely rule out the possibility of an F22 sale just yet. However, failing that I don't think the Japanese would go for the F35. They'd buy the Silent Eagle before then.
LO is correct, the 120 C was initially designed due to a lack of carriage room in the F-35 bay, a 6 shooter would be squeaky. Also a smaller aperture tends to result in less gain and worse target discrimination, although you can play tricks with it. Although it does offer significant advantages AESA is not the answer to a maidens prayer and i would wait to see installed performance before getting too excited.
A run off between Typhoon and Silent Eagle would be intriguing
Hey guys im new here so go easy on me... The Typhoon will be getting the latest & most advanced version of AEAS radar by 2014, and it comes with a swashplate. im not sure about the F35 sizes etc.. but the AEAS radar in the typhoon will have the biggest radar out of the latest gen jet due to the size of the nose cone.
Im sure it will be part of the deal with japan. Another key factor for the eurofighter team will be the full technology transferr, something u cant put a price on meaning japan will have a excellent platfrom of tech to build there own next generation of jets.
I was not calling into question any internal carriage issues. However, point of order, 't-was not the internal carriage on the F35 that drove the clipped wings methinks.
I'm most definitely not buying the AESA vs M-Scan radar argument though. I am fully aware of the Radar Power equation implying larger gain is better and that this can be achieved through use of large apertures. I do however completely scoff your implication that the smaller aperture on the F-35 (compared to the Captor) results in significant gain losses (again compared to a M-Scan radar) that cannot be regained in other areas of the AESA design. The vast number of advantages offered by AESA radars - beam agility, pulse to pulse frequency agility, advanced waveform usage for example - massively outweigh the disadvantages.
Similar argument applies for target discrimination wrt larger apertures giving smaller beam-widths at the half power point. Completely correct that the larger aperture should win. However to compare an M-Scan to an AESA is like comparing apples to oranges.
I've used both types and am unashamedly an AESA convert!
Last edited by LOAgent; 10th Oct 2011 at 17:48.
Reason: Awful typing
If you re-read my post, you will notice I did not rubbish the AESA concept:
"Although it does offer significant advantages AESA is not the answer to a maidens prayer and i would wait to see installed performance before getting too excited."
There is a long road from a bench to integrated system and there are multiple projects that took a very long time to achieve the required performance.
I didn't think for one minute that you were rubbishing AESAs. I was attempting to add some meat to the 'larger aperture equals better gain and better angular resolution' assertion from your earlier post.
No hostile intent, my apologies if you considered my post as such.
We were naive in extremis if we thought the C had been designed for F35. I think we only need to look at the timeline that the C was introduced into service and what other confined space airframe was being developed at the time to find the real driver behind clipped fins and wings.
Last edited by LOAgent; 10th Oct 2011 at 15:45.
Reason: unintended potentially inflammatory language!
I definitely agree with the 'more TRM is better' argument.
I suspect there are many issues involved with the 120C on the F35 for the UK, not least of which I imagine would be the introduction into service of the Meteor.
Typhoon has a mech-scan radar designed in the 1980s
Rubbish, it was the 1990s (I was there designing it, I can assure you that we were pushing the boundaries of what the ASIC foundries could offer us in 1995) and that was just Tranche 1. The Tranche 2 radar included early 2000s technology, and involved a pretty comprehensive redesign of the processor path.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBM
F-35 has the world's most advanced AESA radar currently fielded - it's in a different league altogether. So, until a Typhoon export comes with a proven, capable AESA radar it's 'money for old rope'
Obviously, the 2007 flight of CAESAR in a Typhoon passed you by...
