When RAF Pilots Flew the F-104

[ColinB]

Did that charming man speak with a slight lilt in his voice? If so, beware, because when fuelled with a few beers, he was prone to smack one over the head. Charmingly. Lovely man PL!

He had a clipped, middle class voice and was quietly spoken. He didn't seem like a head-banger to me but who knows?
The reason I mentioned Don Kingaby was that he was the W/C Flying at RAF Celle in the late 1950s and his next posting was to be a desk job. The story related many years later was that he was thinking of resigning his commission when a pal from Fontainebleau tipped him off that the GAF were seeking current PAIs. This led to training in the USA and his job at Oldenburg.
What interested me particularly was the initial flying training of the nascent GAF and the involvement of RAF aircrew. Were many involved and where did they do their training?
This was a short time after WW11 and there must have been many interesting meetings with recent foes.

[BBadanov]

At a Squadron Exchange in Husum in the early 80s, an elderly G-91 Gino pilot told me his instructor on pilots course was RAF. This was the mid to late 1950s (Luftwaffe reformed 1956?) and he was trained in Germany.

[jindabyne]

Here's your man from Llandwrog, CB ------



Far right, visiting old mates at RAF Valley in his F-104 during the station Open Day 1975(I think). The Staish, Gp Capt Edwards is on the left.

And another of him (far left), about a year earlier, Dragons formation team --

[Lone_Ranger]

quote fug.
."I remember my father (now deceased) making a joke when we were stationed in RAFG Wildenrath in the early eighties. It was only later that I 'got it'. Q: How do you get yourself a Starfighter? A: Buy a field in Germany and wait."

..................Hmm Robert Calvert fan was he?

[A2QFI]

I agree with the answer but I think another version of the question was "Why don't the Luftwaffe have Open Days?"

[exMudmover]

Re that old business about the German accident record with the F104:

They bought 800+ F104s and crashed just over 200 of them.

What percentage of the RAF's Lightning force did we write off? Over half a squadron's worth doing show-off wheels-up takeoffs for a start!

What percentage of the RAF's Harrier force did we write off? A lot more than 25%, I'm sure.

[Wander00]

Certainly the Gant had a higher attrition rate, and that was without adding "weapons" training.

[A2QFI]

Figures from an ex Jaguar pilot quote 208 Jaguar airframes bought, another source says 200, and 65 losses so, 33% and were there any enemy action losses?

[A2QFI]

What weapons training did Gnats do?

[Wander00]

Gnat - weapons training-they did not - hence my point, that they were not subject to that additional "risk factor", as I think they are known now

[TBM-Legend]

Well the RAAF didn't do too well with the Mirage. A fine ship but....

.....came into service in December 1963. The fleet was built to a total of 100 Single seat 111Os and 16 dual seat 111Ds. Over the next twenty four years 43 aircraft were lost and 14 pilots were killed.

[jindabyne]

What weapons training did Gnats do?

Plenty in India

[ColinB]

Here's your man from Llandwrog, CB ------

You look a little older than the chap in the picture but it was a pleasure to meet you.

[Halton Brat]

The Gnat did not require weapons to inflict damage; I had the dubious distinction of chopping off a colleague's finger with a port aileron during a functional test in the hangar. Stand clear when I'm in the cockpit.......

HB

[jamesdevice]

someone mentioned "Captain" Calvert...

‪So you wanna buy Airplanes.wmv‬‏ - YouTube

[Jane-DoH]

Okay, I got a good question for you guys. I was told the F-104 had a really crappy range, but some pilots who talked about it said that it's range was on par with other fighters of the era. The fact that the aircraft had a very high fuel fraction, it's wing-loading was lighter than the F-101 and Ps was said to be about the same as the F-101 and the F-101 could fly very far...

Which one is correct if it's not classified?

[bonajet]

Harrier 1 losses

Of the first main batch of 110 ordered (i.e. the 60s & 70s aircraft before the 80s attrition buys), there were 60 lost or around 55%.

[GreenKnight121]

F-104A: J79-GE-3A/3B; Normal range 730 miles*. Maximum range with external drop tanks 1400 miles.
Fuel: Internal fuel capacity was 897 US gallons, and maximum fuel capacity with two wingtip tanks and two underwing tanks was 1627 US gallons.

F-104B: as above, except internal fuel capacity was 752 US gallons.

F-104C:J79-GE-7; Normal range 850 miles*. Maximum range with four drop tanks was 1500 miles.
Fuel: Internal fuel capacity was 897 US gallons, and maximum fuel capacity with two wingtip tanks and two underwing tanks was 1627 US gallons. A 195 US gallon drop tank could be carried on each of the underwing pylons, plus a 170 US gallon drop tank at each wingtip.

F-104G: J79-GE-11A; Normal range 1080 miles**. Maximum range with four drop tanks was 1630 miles.
Fuel: Internal fuel capacity was 1,054 US gallons, and maximum fuel capacity with two wingtip tanks and two underwing tanks was 1784 US gallons.

F-104S: J79-GE-19; Normal range was 1550 miles***, and maximum range with four drop tanks was 1815 miles.
Fuel: Standard internal fuel capacity 896 US gallons, which can be supplemented by one 225 US gallon centerline tank, two 195-US gallon underwing tanks and two 170-US gallon wingtip tanks. In addition, 121 US gallons could be carried in an auxiliary tank in the ammunition bay.



* "normal" was with no external tanks.

** "normal" was with no external tanks, but external tank capacity was increased.

*** "normal" was with the centerline tank and the wingtip tanks.

[Wholigan]

For anyone who may be interested, there have been 2 threads in the past on the 104:

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...accidents.html

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...ly-flawed.html

[A2QFI]

Or were they Ajeets?