Time to bin the Red Arrows
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Time to bin the Red Arrows
Think with the demise of the Harrier Force and the biting cuts in Defence spending, its about time we got rid of the last great ego trip for fast jet aircrew and bin the Reds once and for all, after all we are going to have a lack of frontline units soon to draw crews from and im sure the wearing of a scarlet suit whilst all your mates are in Desert DPs is going to be a sign of im alright Jack to others, there is no place in a reduced RAF for a flying circus whilst COs of frontliners beg cap in hand for extra fuel to carry out training sorties...........nice whilst it lasted but.........time to go im afraid
(plus the jets now need 25hrs maintainance for every hour in the air)
(plus the jets now need 25hrs maintainance for every hour in the air)
Next we'll be wearing overalls and breaking wind in the Palaces of the Mighty, Comrade.
Vasco di Gama famously stated:
'Where there is no vision, the people perish'.
The Red Arrows (funded largely through industry) are HUGE ambassadors for the RAF and UK PLC. Nett effect of binning them?
Vasco di Gama famously stated:
'Where there is no vision, the people perish'.
The Red Arrows (funded largely through industry) are HUGE ambassadors for the RAF and UK PLC. Nett effect of binning them?
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My understanding is that the recomendation was made to cut the Reds by the military during the SDSR; however, our political masters chose not to take it.
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While the Red Arrows exist, the public see that all is right and well with the Air Force and that defence cuts can't possibly be causing any issues for the front line, or for capabilities.
SAR is the same, but they're not getting rid of it, they're only privatising it, so its all OK!
SAR is the same, but they're not getting rid of it, they're only privatising it, so its all OK!
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the last great ego trip for fast jet aircrew
the wearing of a scarlet suit whilst all your mates are in Desert DPs is going to be a sign of im alright Jack to others
flying circus
Thanks for you reasoned, unemotional and considered input TB.
the wearing of a scarlet suit whilst all your mates are in Desert DPs is going to be a sign of im alright Jack to others
flying circus
Thanks for you reasoned, unemotional and considered input TB.
Originally Posted by Postman Plod
While the Red Arrows exist, the public see that all is right and well with the Air Force and that defence cuts can't possibly be causing any issues for the front line, or for capabilities.
Which is exactly why the Govt won't bin them...and probably why the top brass wanted to...?
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The Reds will continue to be put up as a savings option in each Planning Round, safe in the knowledge that they will not be taken.
Just like HMY BRITANNIA!
Just like HMY BRITANNIA!
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Do I want the Reds to go? No.
Do I think they should go? Yes.
If the Reds actually filled a role other than display flying you could at least argue for their existence. The fact is that I have heard all you obviously knowledgeable chaps, going on about “cutting your cloth”, and taking austerity measures etc, as justification for the emasculation of the RN and it’s essential (that should get a bite) fixed wing capability and the RAF with it’s Nimrod etc.
The dripping about the reduction of RAF fixed wing fast jet squadrons on this forum makes me laugh when you read (on the same forum) that we should keep the Reds “because” (insert excuse here).
Over the years the military have been able to display their aircraft and men for the large part without resorting to unique display squadrons or units.
I refer to Vixen displays by “Fred’s five”, “Simon’s Sircus”; later the helicopter displays by the “Sharks”, the “Whales” and the army Lynx more recently. Excellent singleton displays of jets and helicopters have come and gone and as memory serves, they were all pretty good and all from “active” squadrons. (yes I know I’ve missed many other great display teams out, start a thread if it worries you).
Yes the Reds are great, but so was the Field Gun Run and the Field Gun was cut because the leaning of manpower meant that a purpose manned display unit was no longer feasible, (we just couldn’t spare the manpower). The Royal Yacht went years ago and you could argue that as a national icon and “ambassador” she was better known than the Reds (I’ll bite orgASMic). If these are the austere years then to use some else’s phrase; “cut your cloth to suit”.
Cheers all
Do I think they should go? Yes.
If the Reds actually filled a role other than display flying you could at least argue for their existence. The fact is that I have heard all you obviously knowledgeable chaps, going on about “cutting your cloth”, and taking austerity measures etc, as justification for the emasculation of the RN and it’s essential (that should get a bite) fixed wing capability and the RAF with it’s Nimrod etc.
The dripping about the reduction of RAF fixed wing fast jet squadrons on this forum makes me laugh when you read (on the same forum) that we should keep the Reds “because” (insert excuse here).
Over the years the military have been able to display their aircraft and men for the large part without resorting to unique display squadrons or units.
I refer to Vixen displays by “Fred’s five”, “Simon’s Sircus”; later the helicopter displays by the “Sharks”, the “Whales” and the army Lynx more recently. Excellent singleton displays of jets and helicopters have come and gone and as memory serves, they were all pretty good and all from “active” squadrons. (yes I know I’ve missed many other great display teams out, start a thread if it worries you).
Yes the Reds are great, but so was the Field Gun Run and the Field Gun was cut because the leaning of manpower meant that a purpose manned display unit was no longer feasible, (we just couldn’t spare the manpower). The Royal Yacht went years ago and you could argue that as a national icon and “ambassador” she was better known than the Reds (I’ll bite orgASMic). If these are the austere years then to use some else’s phrase; “cut your cloth to suit”.
Cheers all
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Do I want the Reds to go? No.
Do I think they should go? Yes.
Do I think they should go? Yes.
Having been more than a casual supporter over the years, I'm now finding it somewhat difficult to disagree.
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So what would be the nett effect on military output in binning them?
Also, just how much do they cost once sponsorship is taken into account?
We did without them for the first 46 years, but that led to several independent teams (and a few more accidents).
Would a Sqn now have the budget (or aircraft) to form an individual team? Probably not.
Personally I think that if it's a choice between front line capability and them then they should go.
If they can self fund through sponsorship, then let them stay.
Also, just how much do they cost once sponsorship is taken into account?
We did without them for the first 46 years, but that led to several independent teams (and a few more accidents).
Would a Sqn now have the budget (or aircraft) to form an individual team? Probably not.
Personally I think that if it's a choice between front line capability and them then they should go.
If they can self fund through sponsorship, then let them stay.
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Might as well bin the whole Armed Forces now!
We haven't got enough left be credible anymore.. Sad but true!
The welfare state that supports thousands of feckless, do nothing but collect dole families out there and useless bankers have reduced this Country to one hardly worth fighting for anyway!
Yeah I'm fairly pi
d off with what we have become. 
We haven't got enough left be credible anymore.. Sad but true!
The welfare state that supports thousands of feckless, do nothing but collect dole families out there and useless bankers have reduced this Country to one hardly worth fighting for anyway!
Yeah I'm fairly pi
d off with what we have become.
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I think I share your thoughts there OOT. Always been a big fan of the Reds, but given what we've lost and will continue to lose, to continue to pretend all is well in the RAF is pure folly.
Defence no longer matters. Once we're out of Afghanistan, more cuts will come, and we will barely be left with a self defence force. I bet that won't stop the politicians from trying to flex their muscles, but "can do" will become "can't do," and I hope to god that the masters in charge of the forces will have the guts to say no, or else we'll find ourselves very much and likely bloodily on the losing side.
Defence no longer matters. Once we're out of Afghanistan, more cuts will come, and we will barely be left with a self defence force. I bet that won't stop the politicians from trying to flex their muscles, but "can do" will become "can't do," and I hope to god that the masters in charge of the forces will have the guts to say no, or else we'll find ourselves very much and likely bloodily on the losing side.
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Just seen a PR11 submission to bin the Gun Troop, RHA. Maybe they and the Reds could do a joint final show where they demonstrate a pack howizter taking down a Hawk! (all carefully choreographed of course!) 
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gentlemen,
Please don't get succered in to thinking that chopping the Arrows will save us any money whatsoever, because it won't. The Red Arrows are the only RAF asset and probably UK military asset that actually makes money for UK PLC.
Getting rid of them might seem logical in these difficult times, but it would be a mistake of the first order, and wouldn't provide a single extra penny for the front line.
Please don't get succered in to thinking that chopping the Arrows will save us any money whatsoever, because it won't. The Red Arrows are the only RAF asset and probably UK military asset that actually makes money for UK PLC.
Getting rid of them might seem logical in these difficult times, but it would be a mistake of the first order, and wouldn't provide a single extra penny for the front line.
