Military Licence Exemptions beyond April 2012

[Alex Whittingham]

I have just returned from a meeting with the CAA discussing, amongst other things, the status of the UK military licence exemptions beyond April 2012, the latest date by which the CAA must conform to EASA regulations.

As far as military exemptions go, they have made it clear that the current exemptions will not continue beyond that date.

There is an option which allows the CAA to make a case for military exemptions under EASA rules but the CAA will not staff this, saying that it is the responsibility of the MOD to produce the case and, if they do so, the CAA will submit it. Similarly they will not submit a case based on the current exemptions, their argument being that the military training system has changed since these were drawn up.

So, if any PPRuNers have influence in whichever part of MOD currently deals with this, please do your best to keep the process moving, 2012 is closer than it looks.

Some background info here, military exemptions are referred to on page 4.

[VinRouge]

A quick question (Beags might be able to help here)

Would this be beyond current front liners to staff in their spare time? Or will it require dedicated funding, of the sort that we could get a whip round to pay for?

Personally, I am doing all 14 exams anyway, it would be a shame to lose this ability for experienced (but exam lazy) chaps who have the hours to use their time towards doing less work for their licenses?

[BEagle]

Alex - that's most interesting. When you and I were at an EASA briefing at Gatwick some years ago, you may recall that I asked EASA's Michaela Verissimo that very question. She assured us that responsibility would remain with the CAA (in the case of the UK) and the CAA's Ben Alcott nodded his agreement.

The CAA has become increasingly aware that many ME military pilots are given such little PIC time in training these days that they don't even qualify for a CPL after a co-pilot tour on a TriStar, for example... So they have to burn holes in the sky in a PA28 to meet the 70 hr minimum PIC requirement. Perhaps this has influenced their thinking?

What evidence does the CAA have to allege that the military training system has changed since the current agreement was drawn up?

It was due to government policy in respect of qualifications gained in military service that the current arrangement was developed, as well as being a JAR-FCL obligation. Were your discussions with Cliff Whittaker? If so, maybe I should tell him that I will draw the attention of my local MP (David Cameron) to this CAA volte face and ask DC to direct the relevant department to investigate the situation further?

If the RAF system is still adequate enough to produce TriStar 'first officers', it must be good enough to meet the existing exemption arrangments!

[clunckdriver]

No lets see, military training may not be credited, but a Multi Crew Lic will be? Now I know the World is mad and run by the bean counters. How can such a move even be considered? {And for those who didnt make the cut in the military, please dont bother with the "Military training is too far removed from civilian flying"} nonsense! Flying skills are flying skills, my generation had no problems limiting bank angles when we started flying SLF.From the DC4 to the 767 and Airbus we had no problems adapting. If the CAA dont make the case to the rest of the World then they need to be removed from their cushy jobs.{Now let me tell you how I really feel!}

[BEagle]

VinRouge, the last time it was indeed a 'front liner' who started the ball rolling after having read JAR-FCL 1. Some sniffy sod of a Wg Cdr at Learning Command tried to give me a hard time about drawing the attention of a 4* to this as as potential recruiting and retention incentive ('proper staffing chains'....), but when Bliar announced that qualifications gained in military service were to be recognised in civilian life, I put the case to the Stn Cdr. Word filtered onwards and upwards and it was ultimately the Scottish Officer who kicked sufficient arse at Binnsworth to get some staff officers working on it.

If there is anyone left at whatever passes for Learning Command these days, then you need a staff officer to be tasked to sort the matter out NOW. Otherwise the Services will lose a valuable recruiting and retention incentive.

[LateArmLive]

These days we don't really want a

valuable recruiting and retention incentive

[VinRouge]

So is this in line with EU OPS (Or whatever they are calling it these days) coming in?

When is EU-OPS superceding JAR OPS?

[Alex Whittingham]

Hi Beags, it was indeed Cliff Whittaker, and the entire FCL heirarchy. Reading between the lines the CAA are saying that, whereas responsibility for submitting the case rests with the CAA, they don't have the capacity to draw it up and have therefore shuffled the job off to the MOD. I think there may have been one or two meetings on the subject already. I have offered our resources to help if required, the CAA have said that they will put the offer to MOD.

Evidence? No.

Clunkdriver, you'll always get the hours credited, this is about easing the licensing system for those leaving the services. The default case is that you do all the exams and flight tests as if you were, for instance, an FAA ATPL holder on conversion, the best outcome is that it is in the CAA's power, if the case is made and EASA agree, to credit nearly everything as is currently done for experienced ME crews.

[clunckdriver]

Alex, Yes, Im aware of this, having owned five flight schools and helped many ex military to ease their way into civvy street. Many years ago I had to obtain a Brit ATPL along with a few others to fulfill certain contracts, I got a chuckle out of one guy studying with me, he had to take time of from class as he was flying the GG on a country wide tour in the C5 VIP aircraft {The piston C5 , not the new one} He still had to write those exams like the rest of us, what a joke. By the way a certain Comonwealth country didnt want to credit any of my time claiming that a 37,500lb twin jet aircraft was not relevent! Turned out the guy behind this was a failed RNZAF pilot, go figure.

[vecvechookattack]

It is interesting that with the predicted shortage of Airline pilots, the CAA are making it more difficult to become one.

[MrBernoulli]

"As far as military exemptions go, they [the CAA] have made it clear that the current exemptions will not continue beyond that date [beyond April 2012]." Thanks for bringing that to everyone's attention, Alex! So, to all you guys and gals that currently have the benefit of these dispensations - start your work for the license now! Do not count on the MoD doing anything to save those dispensations between now and April 2012. The MoD is up to it's arse in alligators dealing with the fallout of the spending review, and the CAA is obviously sloping it's shoulders. The dispensations, for those who meet the requirements, are a valuable saving in further effort and expense - don't waste them! Start now, because it could easily take all the time between now and April 2012 to get all the ticks for your ATPL. And Alex's Bristol Groundschool is a superb way of getting yourself through the academic hurdles! I would have had a very much harder time had I not attended some crammers and used Alex's training material back when we still had to do all the CAA exams. Alex and his team are expert in getting you through the exams. (No, I have no connection with Alex's outfit, but I have absolutely no hesitation in recommending it.) Get cracking folks! [For some reason I am unable to format any of my post - paragraphs, italics, etc!?!?]

[BEagle]

Well, Just This Once... , if RAF flying training really has atrophied to the extent you indicate, then there would seem $od all point in attempting to seek any EASA accreditation...

What a huge shame.

I must admit that I spotted the rot setting in when a new co-pilot arrived on the squadron who hadn't even flown solo at night during his so-called RAF flying training

[clunckdriver]

So Just This Once, What does the RAF wings training consist of these days? {And I dont mean what the Royals do} How many hours and what training does the average Joe pilot wind up with when he steps forward on his/her wings parade? Its many years since I trained and really have lost track of the changes apart from playing a small part helping with the Tutor introduction in Canada.

[Uncle Ginsters]

So, assuming that the MoD is to busy to facilitate its pilots' licensing, when do they need to start the process to get in prior to the 2012 deadline. Do the licenses need to be signed off by then or just commenced?

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

you need a staff officer to be tasked

Sorry, we don't have many of these. Certainly, none could be spared to work on a task which might actually make a big difference to a lot of the people who are now facing the axe.

Alex,

Many thanks for bringing this to everyone's attention. Forgive my ignorance, but will this affect RW folks aspiring to CPL(H)/ATPL(H) in the same way?

[Farfrompuken]

Surely the minimum requirements for the Bridging Package/Fully exempted ATPL dictate that there will not be any applicant going for their licences with insufficient experience??

2500hrs of which 1500 P1 of which 1000hrs captain IIRC.

Which means that all the talk of low hours applicants is irrelevant. It WILL mean that in this day-and-age it will take at least an extra tour to gain those hours when compared to when the rules were drawn up. But the levels remain the same; a 2500hrs ex-mil pilot (in particular a ME pilot) will have BAGS of relevant experience.

And what are the rules for the other EU nations? I'm sure EASA was meant to bring us in line with those nations, some of which have lower experience requirements than the UK.

The guys/gals may arrive on unit with fewer captain/solo hours the before, but the Co-Pilots I see are, by and large, a pretty handy bunch. Within months of the OCU, they're off flying profiles that would never have been completed by the average 'yesteryear' mate in all their tours. The training system isn't letting us down as the receiving unit; it would be preferable for the individuals all to have completed up to BHT in BFJTS to allow them more 'airtime' for their own experience bank, however economics preclude this.

I think we're selling ourselves short here; flying rates are low, but not the immovable totals for ATPL accreditation.

[Oceanic815]

I started the full 14 exams whilst on a CFS tour. There was no guarantee of achieving the required 1000 hrs on a Captains tour in order to qualify for the 'FREE' Atpl.

I would say that although there are many irrelevant or outdated topics there is also a lot of good 'Gen' to be gained, much of which is just not covered in the Military FTS or even on a ME OCU. If nothing else it is all useful background knowledge.

I would definitely recommend Bristol as the place to do the course. Alex has a brain the size of a planet and the people he recruits are equally talented. If they can't get you through the exams then no one will!!!!

Also with careful use of ELCs the cost need not be huge.

For those thinking about it, bite the bullet and do the full set. You'll be a better pilot at the end!

[BEagle]

Perhaps one point which needs more emphasis is that all military aircrew are selected whereas pretty well anyone with the money who can pass a Class 1 medical can obtain a CPL....

There can be no logical reason to abandon the 2000/1500(1000) accreditation scheme of today.

[Prop-Ed]

Just read the other thread about ELCs no longer being made available for the ATPL theory course.

No Duff!? Anybody heard the definitive on this?

[Junta Leader]

Anyone know what the deal is for those who have obtained a CPL (Frozen ATPL) through the Bridging Scheme (ie 4+1 exams) but are still waiting to get the 500hrs ME Multi-crew (having all the other requirements already?

Better get in a cockpit quickly me thinks...

JL