Decision to axe Harrier is "bonkers".
What Gull and Fod have forgotten, glojo, is that this thread is about Harrier, not RAF/RN. I think both service operated them? It's quite possible that the French chappies were talking about an RAF Harrier.
My one regret about the Jag incident was that it wasn't a Harrier. I have to confess to being eternally disappointed about that. Would have been so much funnier for us. But them's the roll of the dice.
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What Gull and Fod have forgotten, glojo, is that this thread is about Harrier, not RAF/RN. I think both service operated them? It's quite possible that the French chappies were talking about an RAF Harrier.
PLUS he whose name must not be mentioned
had highly qualified RAF pilots in his squadron and entrusted one such pilot with the ongoing training and development of his operational pilots, both Fleet Air Arm and RAF..
I thought the old Harrier was quite a fun idea, though. Living in hides, flying off of bits of old B road. Scrambling from the beach in just a pair of shrts. Very flexible. Then it all got a bit serious.
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The thing for me is that the Harrier was pretty much the aviation 'Great Britain'.
Reasonable at a few things but not great at anything.
A little too small.
Had a great 'heydey' which it traded on forever after.
What a perfect jet for the tiny windswept rock that talked a great game and every so often backed it up with a great feat of arms.
The irony is of course that the SDSR required money to concentrate on COIN and in providing it we got rid of our COIN aircraft. We got rid of our carrier which would have made sense had we kept the perky little jet that didn't need Johnny Foreigner's runways...which would now be really handy in the absence of carriers.
But then we have a government that no-one voted for (don't remember there being a 'coalition' box to tick) and we're happy bailing out a bank for £30 billion but not happy spending a sixth of that on the defence that guarantees its existence.
So maybe the decision to bin the jet that reflected us so perfectly actually reflects us perfectly!
Reasonable at a few things but not great at anything.
A little too small.
Had a great 'heydey' which it traded on forever after.
What a perfect jet for the tiny windswept rock that talked a great game and every so often backed it up with a great feat of arms.
The irony is of course that the SDSR required money to concentrate on COIN and in providing it we got rid of our COIN aircraft. We got rid of our carrier which would have made sense had we kept the perky little jet that didn't need Johnny Foreigner's runways...which would now be really handy in the absence of carriers.
But then we have a government that no-one voted for (don't remember there being a 'coalition' box to tick) and we're happy bailing out a bank for £30 billion but not happy spending a sixth of that on the defence that guarantees its existence.
So maybe the decision to bin the jet that reflected us so perfectly actually reflects us perfectly!
As ever, Orca, very well put. But I fear you forget just how great the aircraft was, and would still be. The answer to all our problems.
Actually, that was a bit harsh even for me. Strike that one. Been out for curry and beers. Don't know what I'm saying. Soz.
Actually, that was a bit harsh even for me. Strike that one. Been out for curry and beers. Don't know what I'm saying. Soz.
I recently heard a couple of interesting rumours from people in the know, but to avoid another circular argument (and to protect my anonymity) I will not repeat them. Neither mentioned Harrier per se, but one was carrier related, and the other WAFU (maintaining skills/training a fixed wing cadre for the future/UK based stuff) related.
Perhaps we do live in interesting times?
Perhaps we do live in interesting times?
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I recently heard a couple of interesting rumours from people in the know, but to avoid another circular argument (and to protect my anonymity) I will not repeat them. Neither mentioned Harrier per se, but one was carrier related, and the other WAFU (maintaining skills/training a fixed wing cadre for the future/UK based stuff) related.
Perhaps we do live in interesting times?
Perhaps we do live in interesting times?
No, not that...... In any case that would still leave the problem of lack of capability now, and the issue of preparing for the future.
Would the same decisions have been taken if, at the time of SDSR, F35B was still the chosen aircraft for CVF, we had a STOVL future to prepare for, and the Prime Minister had demonstrated his propensity for belligerence and tough talking with respect to Syria and Iran?
Likewise, if the three Service chiefs had been in charge of their own budgets, and had the freedom to make choices based on their priorities, would things have been different?
I forgot that sometime during July or August, I had a quick look at a defence/aviation magazine (cannot remember which one) whilst passing through a newsagents. I gather that the USMC is intending to operate the AV8B until 2025-2030, and that of the 72 Harriers the UK sold to the US, 16 are still intact and meant to be flown as such, as noted here.
Perhaps MOD can think outside the box? This not completely sensible suggestion of building extra patrol vessels suggests that the Government might want to be seen to be doing something to reduce the effects of the SDSR cuts, although it would be of very limited utility - building cheap and only lightly armed vessels with limited range (so no counter piracy or counter narcotics operations far from the UK), that cannot do a frigate's job. Better to address the gap in carrier strike capability (the firepower of carrier aircraft would partly make up for having less frigates with Harpoon, Sea Wolf, 4.5" gun etc) - and the issues associated with preparing for a STOVL future....
Also, having a fixed wing capability would help make up for the loss from 2016 of the ASaCs Sea King. This has recently demonstrated its utility in working with surface ships - see here.
“The complementary capabilities of Type 45 and Sea King Mk 7 mean that we can assess air and surface activity over a wide area of the ocean,” said Diamond’s Commanding Officer Cdr Ian Clarke.
An armed fixed wing aircraft can not only assess, but also get a visual ID, and engage...
We really need to consider getting some sort of V/STOL jet on the deck of Illustrious/Queen Elizabeth this decade - something which could be easily achieved, if only the politicians could act with imagination and courage.
Would the same decisions have been taken if, at the time of SDSR, F35B was still the chosen aircraft for CVF, we had a STOVL future to prepare for, and the Prime Minister had demonstrated his propensity for belligerence and tough talking with respect to Syria and Iran?
Likewise, if the three Service chiefs had been in charge of their own budgets, and had the freedom to make choices based on their priorities, would things have been different?
I forgot that sometime during July or August, I had a quick look at a defence/aviation magazine (cannot remember which one) whilst passing through a newsagents. I gather that the USMC is intending to operate the AV8B until 2025-2030, and that of the 72 Harriers the UK sold to the US, 16 are still intact and meant to be flown as such, as noted here.
Perhaps MOD can think outside the box? This not completely sensible suggestion of building extra patrol vessels suggests that the Government might want to be seen to be doing something to reduce the effects of the SDSR cuts, although it would be of very limited utility - building cheap and only lightly armed vessels with limited range (so no counter piracy or counter narcotics operations far from the UK), that cannot do a frigate's job. Better to address the gap in carrier strike capability (the firepower of carrier aircraft would partly make up for having less frigates with Harpoon, Sea Wolf, 4.5" gun etc) - and the issues associated with preparing for a STOVL future....
Also, having a fixed wing capability would help make up for the loss from 2016 of the ASaCs Sea King. This has recently demonstrated its utility in working with surface ships - see here.
“The complementary capabilities of Type 45 and Sea King Mk 7 mean that we can assess air and surface activity over a wide area of the ocean,” said Diamond’s Commanding Officer Cdr Ian Clarke.
An armed fixed wing aircraft can not only assess, but also get a visual ID, and engage...
We really need to consider getting some sort of V/STOL jet on the deck of Illustrious/Queen Elizabeth this decade - something which could be easily achieved, if only the politicians could act with imagination and courage.
Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 21st Nov 2012 at 10:51. Reason: Bad typing!
I forgot that sometime during July or August, I had a quick look at a defence/aviation magazine (cannot remember which one) whilst passing through a newsagents. I gather that the USMC is intending to operate the AV8B until 2025-2030, and that of the 72 Harriers the UK sold to the US, 16 are still intact and meant to be flown as such, as noted here.
The USMC do not intend to fly any of the acquired Harriers
That's not to say that Illustrious couldn't embark a USMC squadron, in the same way that Ark Royal did one her last deployment.
Last edited by Davef68; 26th Nov 2012 at 10:24.
Judging by this
Demobbed - Out of Service British Military Aircraft
the ones at Cherry Point were transferred as the ink was drying on the decision. They probably no longer exist as airframes now.
Demobbed - Out of Service British Military Aircraft
the ones at Cherry Point were transferred as the ink was drying on the decision. They probably no longer exist as airframes now.
Webf, harrier is dead and isnt coming back. You were probably either the victim of a wah, or someones 'and another thing' speech.
If you want to chat via pm then i will try to explain why you've been had
If you want to chat via pm then i will try to explain why you've been had
Yes, because:
a. WEBF keeps posting every now and then (and will only rest when GR9s are once again flying from the deck of a CVS or even CVF); and
b. People keep replying asking 'Good God, will this thread never die?'
a. WEBF keeps posting every now and then (and will only rest when GR9s are once again flying from the deck of a CVS or even CVF); and
b. People keep replying asking 'Good God, will this thread never die?'
Whenever I post something a bit off thread, the thread often dies. So...
WEBFoot,
The Harriers we sold the Americans are being broken up for spares. They won't lease us any of theirs because that would demonstrate to their bean counters that they have more than they need. Our Govenrment won't try to lease any because it would be yet another embarrasing U-turn and it would mean admitting that they shouldn't have sold them in the first place. We don't have the support structure for them and no one is going to pay for such a thing; they might be saving up for Dave B or whatever we get (if anything) once it's cancelled.
Whether the decission was bonkers or not, they are not coming back.
So, get over it and spend the next few years repeatedly watching this.
Sorry. That's how it is, fella.
WEBFoot,
The Harriers we sold the Americans are being broken up for spares. They won't lease us any of theirs because that would demonstrate to their bean counters that they have more than they need. Our Govenrment won't try to lease any because it would be yet another embarrasing U-turn and it would mean admitting that they shouldn't have sold them in the first place. We don't have the support structure for them and no one is going to pay for such a thing; they might be saving up for Dave B or whatever we get (if anything) once it's cancelled.
Whether the decission was bonkers or not, they are not coming back.
So, get over it and spend the next few years repeatedly watching this.
Sorry. That's how it is, fella.
Last edited by Courtney Mil; 27th Nov 2012 at 18:10.
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Cherry Point GR-9's
I'm afraid to say the GR-9s at Cherry Point are in bits, I was there a few months ago. Such a shame that the inept MOD made the decision to bin them.However life moves on. Maybe we should as well.
