Decision to axe Harrier is "bonkers".

[glojo]

WEBF thinks that some AH64 flying off a boat are the primary assets doing all the damage.........if only he knew instead of using copy and paste.

Are you being fare with that comment? My thoughts are in line with the excellent words of FodPlod

sea-based Apaches and Harriers and land-based Tornados all have distinct but complementary merits which are not mutually exclusive,

At the moment would it be correct to suggest the distance from the Italian air base to locations in theatre would be approximately 600 miles give or take? This will relate to well over 1200 miles of flying just to get to and back from a target.

If and it is a big if but if we still had the harrier force then we are now talking distances of less than 60 miles. I feel that all WEBF and others are trying to suggest is that our lords and masters have made a huge mistake and are now refusing to back down purely on a point of principal.

I accept the harriers are old but I do NOT accept they were past their sell by date. The Illustrious is back in commission and sailing the high seas devoid of aircraft which to me is sheer lunacy especially as we are now sending out four more tornado aircraft to compliment the numbers in Italy.

The harrier is gone, the harrier debate is closed but it still does not make it right or correct. If we had eight harriers that could fly multiple missions per day from a much closer location (60 in stead of 600 miles) then surely that would be a much better option than what is now taking place ie increasing the tornado strength from an alleged twelve in number to a possible sixteen.

My own thoughts are the withdrawal of the harrier force was a decision that has come home to roost and having just one carrier on station would surely have needed fewer tornado aircraft to carry out their much appreciated role.

There should NOT be a need for saying we cannot have both types of aircraft, if we cannot carry out the role demanded then we should not be put into these positions.

Can we afford to project power in the way we once did?

If not then we should not be getting involved and definitely not carrying out a pot mess, mish mash of an operation which is being run on a shoe string budget.

The petty debates regarding Fleet Air Arm or RAF is really daft and who cares who flies aircraft that are supporting our ground troops, if they are Tornado then so be it, but let us give them the support they deserve.

[Fire 'n' Forget]

60nm or 600nm they both fly to the ATO and fill the slot in that ATO so the assets are always available. If we had numerous TIC then yes the 60nm becomes significant but we don't.

I agree with the gist of your post and if we did have harrier then they would have been utilised, however would I have sold some of the other RAF silver to keep them? No, the navy didn't want to either.

[glojo]

however would I have sold some of the other RAF silver to keep them? No, the navy didn't want to either.

Hi F-n-F,
Hopefully I did not imply the RAF should cut back on any of their assets.

My thoughts are that our Lordships want the military capabilities of a proud nation like Belgium, but are demanding we flex our muscles like a super power.

60nm or 600nm they both fly to the ATO and fill the slot in that ATO so the assets are always available. If we had numerous TIC then yes the 60nm becomes significant but we don't.

I also have NO problem with that statement and again agree with you but when your airfield is at the most just 60 miles away then you are clearly able to be far, far more flexible and can react much easier to the unexpected , unplanned immediate response. Please note my wording when I say 'airfield'. I do not give a flying fig whether that location is a floating airfield or one built on terra firma. We are al hopefully on the same side and fighting the same foe

We have pilots trained to operate the harrier, we have technicians capable of working on the harrier, we have the harriers locked away collecting dust and as I have just said we have a blooming aircraft carrier that is fully operational, has new paint, new crew and NO AIRCRAFT!!!

Am I the only person that watched 'Yes Minister' when they were justifying having a brand new hospital that was fully staffed by management but

had no patients or medical staff

?? Just insert aircraft carrier with no blooming aircraft.

[NorthernKestrel]

Interesting analysis here on the RAeS site on the 10-year Carrier Strike gap that the NAO confirmed last week....

Rebuilding UK Carrier Strike | Aerospace Insight | The Royal Aeronautical Society


Is the RAF/FAA F-35C force just going to end up being a US Navy VFA squadron in all but name - when all said and done?

[alfred_the_great]

There already is a FAA VFA Sqn in all but name....

[WE Branch Fanatic]

So perhaps there could be an UK AV8B squadron?

Why is it seen as better by politicians to stick to a back decision rather than changing in as unexpected events happen?

Good to see that many learned bodies understand the skills that will be involved in regenerating a fixed wing carrier capability.

[romeo bravo]

Quote - "We have pilots trained to operate the harrier, we have technicians capable of working on the harrier, we have the harriers locked away collecting dust and as I have just said we have a blooming aircraft carrier that is fully operational, has new paint, new crew and NO AIRCRAFT!!!"

It's been 6 months since the Harriers last flight, pilots have moved on to new platforms, lost their currency on type, so not viable. Techies, the same as pilots, moved on and lost currency. If this was possible, spares and equipment is being disposed of from MOBs and Depots. Even if the UKG ordered the Harrier to be brought back into service, it would the earth; which the tax payer would have to pick up.

[glojo]

It's been 6 months since the Harriers last flight, pilots have moved on to new platforms, lost their currency on type, so not viable. Techies, the same as pilots, moved on and lost currency. If this was possible, spares and equipment is being disposed of from MOBs and Depots. Even if the UKG ordered the Harrier to be brought back into service, it would the earth; which the tax payer would have to pick up

.

I take aboard what you are saying and no doubt those words are being voiced very loudly throughout the corridors of power but is it really such a huge hurdle?

Do I have too much confidence in the skills, the adaptability of our service personnel?

Is six months such a huge problem or is this more chaff being launched to hide this much better operational option?

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

It's been gone 6 months, we are coping more than adequately without it so if you were a bean counter would you bring it back?

[glojo]

No!

[Neartheend]

Apparently the RAF are ready to go they have just been waiting for the RN to provide a ship to operate from...... oh the irony

[RileyDove]

Romeo - there were no pilots current on the Harrier before it entered service either!! It's a matter of reintroducing skills on T.12's -not exactly rocket science. Similarily technicians don't have 'currency' on types -they rely on the manuals and training to achieve the task. As for the spares - I am not aware of any of the 80,000 line item spares as having been disposed off.

Any notion that the Harrier couldnt be put back into service is utter nonsense! BAe Systems employ a large number of former Harrier people both directly and under contract. Its worth pointing out that the Jump and SAM programme at Cottesmore was very heavily civilian so the knowledge is there.

[Neartheend]

No currency for techies....... Priceless! So my time spent doing re-auths and FSQA's were just a waste of time as all I needed to do was read the manual. Mr Haden Cave will be so chuffed to hear we have developed such a positive attitude to airworthiness.

[RileyDove]

Neathend - Yes indeed ! I worked on GR.3/T.4/GR.5/7/9/T.10/12 . I had a gap of 13 years between working on them as RAF and the BAe . I dont recall you coming round to my house each year to check that I was up to date with my auths and FSQA's

So Yes MR Haden Cave will be happy as I left the service my auths expired and then I came back I got brand new ones !

[glojo]

o currency for techies....... Priceless! So my time spent doing re-auths and FSQA's were just a waste of time as all I needed to do was read the manual. Mr Haden Cave will be so chuffed to hear we have developed such a positive attitude to airworthiness

Using just the written word as the only means of communication is never the best way to hold this type of discussion... I am positive NO ONE is belittling anyone's occupation Might I tactfully suggest there are two ways of looking at this latest diversion regarding re-activating the Harrier.

The pot is half empty....

The pot is half full.

I am in the corner where the pot is less than half empty and those highly trained engineers that have only recently left the Harrier workforce would NOT need too long to get back into the saddle\cockpit.

Always look on the bright side of life!!

[Neartheend]

Riley Dove - sorry I think you missed my point. Techies do have currency, doesn't mean you couldn't become current again, given time, as you proved. Sorry I didn't pop round to check your auth's but I didn't have your address. No doubt we could have spent our time talking about the good old days on 1, 3, 4 or the OCU (delete as required)

[RileyDove]

No offence taken!! I annoys me with these threads is that there is a perception that the pilots and ground crew loose that knowledge instantly the minute they come off an aircraft type. The knowledge is still there its just a matter of checking and and recertifying it.

The will is there 100% to put the Harrier back in the air with both air and ground crew if called upon and I am sure without a shadow of doubt that it could be done in a very short period of time - however without wishing to fall into the category of people who cannot let the Harrier go - I think sadly that for every day that passes it becomes easier for the politicians to forget about it.

Sadly we have lost a capability that was neither Typhoon or Tornado but something hard to define. Whether operating from ships or austere strips we have lost a capability to be able to deploy anywhere in the world and operate successfully very quickly.

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Neartheend

Allegedly (open source - already in the media) Illustrious is preparing to deploy to Libya to relieve Ocean. I wonder if the same decisions would have been made if the events in Libya had unfolded before the SDSR?

[glojo]

It is now common knowledge that the Harriers were axed purely as a cost saving!!! Figures were presented to our lords and masters which were accepted. Game, set and match. I wonder how much the Bar bill is in the local taverns of Gioia del Colle?

If it is a case of chopping either the Tornado or the Harrier then hard decisions had to be made. It was surely up to the Royal Navy to present their own case to justify retaining this option.

I wonder if the same decisions would have been made if the events in Libya had unfolded before the SDSR?

[Wrathmonk]

I wonder if the same decisions would have been made if the events in Libya had unfolded before the SDSR?

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. At the end of the day timing was not on the Harriers side and we are where we are and nothing is going to change it. Unless of course the current government is 'bought down' by the phone hacking saga and then all sorts of promises may be made to secure votes ....

Could also pose the question as to what shape/size the RN would be in if the Argies had not invaded the Falklands (since that seems to be the 'reference point' for most of the discussions these days).

Or, god forbid, what state the entire Armed Forces would have been in if, following the end of the Cold War, Bosnia/Kosovo/Iraq 1 had never happened. 232 Typhoons and half a dozen landies anybody?!!!