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Decision to axe Harrier is "bonkers".

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Decision to axe Harrier is "bonkers".

Old 17th Jun 2011, 13:11
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OK, so he got confused over the model variant, but thats really only a trivial error.
Not in the heat of battle it's not when he, as a force commander would be assigning assets to tasks.

" Sir, we've got a pilot down in the sea."

"OK! Send a helicopter".

" But sir, we've only got an Apache on board"

" It's a helicopter isn't it?"



now leaves the discussion to people who are far better placed than me to add further comment.
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Old 17th Jun 2011, 13:38
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If he was indeed up to date, he has proven in one statement how he most certainly isn't now…

Utter drivel is a fine description I'm afraid!
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Old 17th Jun 2011, 14:36
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" Sir, we've got a pilot down in the sea."

"OK! Send a helicopter".

" But sir, we've only got an Apache on board"

" It's a helicopter isn't it?"
Not the ideal platform but...

Royal Marines Video - Afghanistan Apache Rescue
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Old 17th Jun 2011, 14:58
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" Sir, we've got a pilot down in the sea."
Not the ideal platform
You're not wrong there - be a bit sporty picking someone out of the water with an Apache
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Old 17th Jun 2011, 15:04
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How is it a trivial point when it forms one part of his (outdated an ill informed) argument, you blinkered chimp?
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Old 17th Jun 2011, 15:42
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Originally Posted by jamesdevice
Seems pretty accurate to me
That's cos you wrote it. And it's still inaccurate.

Are you Sandy Woodward's love-child?
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Old 17th Jun 2011, 18:38
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@ Foghorn Leghorn
the point I was making was that it was a trivial point in considering the validity of the rest of his argument. If you can't understand that then you must be pretty thick

@ just another jocky
no, but I suspect you're a descendant of Piltdown Man
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Old 17th Jun 2011, 18:40
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Yeah okay, jamesdevice, whatever you think.
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Old 17th Jun 2011, 18:52
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yes, I do think.
Do you ever think? Probably not
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Old 17th Jun 2011, 18:59
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Ha ha, I do think, yes. Mostly about flying, boozing and women. Not necessarily in that order.
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Old 17th Jun 2011, 19:08
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rather limited vista then
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Old 17th Jun 2011, 19:12
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Depends on one's outlook!
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Old 17th Jun 2011, 19:22
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Aha me swabs. "


"click"
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Old 17th Jun 2011, 19:31
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jamesdevice, purely out of curiosity, but just what are your military aviation credentials?

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Old 17th Jun 2011, 19:36
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James - first, Admiral Woodward made an observation which might suggest that he's not up to date. That immediately runs the risk of a reasonably informed observer of the sort that the Admiral is attempting to influence asking how much else is out of date.

Next, he makes the fatal mistake of believing BEagle's favourite beard-wearer, who alleged that only 3 GR4s, each carrying one Storm Shadow (sadly, the good Cdr Ward seems to have had an ID faff between RAPTOR and Storm Shadow) were ready to launch on the first night of the war. Ignoring the fact that neither Ward nor Adm Woodward appear to have any comprehension of the ATO for the first night (or if they have, it appears to have been fed to them by someone wanting them to look stupid), there's photographic evidence, some of which is from non-MoD sources which contradicts this charge

Then, he compounds it with a correction in the Mail (I think it is, the link is elsewhere) which suggests - nay, shows - that he's not got the point that the F3 and the GR4 are (were) rather different aircraft, adding in a cheap - and inaccurate - shot about the GR4 over Libya (if the govt's strategy is bobbins, it doesn't matter if you've got a fleet of X-Wing fighters (retained, to the sound of much bitching, in lieu of Ti-Fighters), since what they can do against unclear strategic direction, ROE influence by same, etc, etc isn't by and large, going to be altered by whether they operate from a CVS or Gioia.

The point, therefore, is that if you believe that an argument can be sustained to good effect based upon multiple factual inaccuracies, then fair enough - just don't complain if inaccurately-based argument brings about an outcome you don't like.

If, though, you retain the quaint notion that a proper argument needs to consist of well-reasoned analysis supported by clear-cut facts, then you tend to find Admiral Woodward's contribution rather disappointing...
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Old 17th Jun 2011, 19:46
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Masterly prose, Archi'!
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Old 18th Jun 2011, 16:00
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However.... I would say his main mistake is focussing on South Atlantic scenarios. The key issue is, of course, not letting the Argentines invade.

But it does seem a bit rich that many (here and elsewhere) criticise anyone not 100% up to date with RAF aircraft and equipment, when these same people happily shout down arguments about the skills needed for carrier operations. RAF units have flown from carriers very successfully, however, it is the RN that has operated the carriers. It is the ships company of a CVS that have made it possible for the embarked aircraft to do their stuff. Yet many posters insist in looking at this in a totally light blue/pilot centric way. Even this ignores the fact that it is also true that an airfield ashore only works because of lots of jobs being done by different people.

Many naval aviators who have written books be it Sharkey Ward in Sea Harrier Over The Falklands, Nick Richardson in No Escape Zone, or the late John B Nichols (USN F8 driver in Vietnam) in On Yankee Station, take the time to mention the involvement of the carrier crew. We know that the First Sea Lord (an ax Captain of Illustrious when she was operating in the Gulf and during the Sierra Leone intervention) also tried to inform the Prime Minister pre SDSR - but did the PM also receive advice that "it's only a floating airfield" and decide that this was more to his liking?

I will not repeat or quote my comments again in case anyone has another hissy fit or starts to think that I have OCD or anything like that. Suffice to say, newcomers to this thread should be able to find the right posts and links (such as this one) easily enough.

Just out of interest, what is the plan for when Charles De Gaulle has to return to port? She cannot stay on station forever.

Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 20th Jun 2011 at 11:12.
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Old 18th Jun 2011, 18:44
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When the Boat comes in...

WEBF,

there is a big difference between a difference of opinion and factual errors!

As for the CdG, you have clearly believed the hype too much; it will not be quite the loss that some would have you believe

It only operates the deck for 6 hours a day and so the ac will base from land and provide more hours per ac over Libya just as the FAF Rafale do from a certain island base (and that’s a fact!).

Whilst the French Navy and RN PR machines seem to be in perfect synch, this is a conflict, not an opportunity to score petty points based on untruths and half truths. 1SL took criticism more because he undermined the information operation than for criticising the SDSR.

Last time I looked it was never a good idea to tell the enemy that you might be thinking about giving up or backing off. At least the RAF are knuckling down and getting on with their job.

Ward, West and Woodward have lost the plot and those that continue to use their arguments will be weakened by it. Most serving dark blue are deeply embarrased by their inaccurate rants.
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Old 20th Jun 2011, 18:03
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Information Operation? What Information Operation? The one that assumes the Tripoli regime is a bunch of idiots who have no awareness of defence or political matters in Western nations (not unlike the way certain politicians treat the public and service chiefs) and cannot add two and two?

The RAF is, as you say, knuckling down. So is the RN. Both services have raised doubts about sustaining a longer term campaign. On which note - HMS Brocklesby has completed her Libyan mission after being relieved. As 1SL has noted, there is going to be an issue relieving other naval units post SDSR. Most significantly, how will CDG be relieved? I try not pay attention to hype, I pay attention to statistics, and the fact that time = distance/speed.

.....this is a conflict, not an opportunity to score petty points based on untruths and half truths.

Hmmm! The future of NATO, as well as current operations, is threatened by defence cuts. See here:

Countries who recently did their own strategic review, they found themselves getting rid of capabilities that now that they're in a combat environment they're giving second thought to that - Admiral Mike Mullen.

HMS Illustrious has now returned to sea following her refit - in fact she is raring to go. She still has a ski ramp. She can still embark and operate Harriers. See my comments and suggestions.

Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 12th Aug 2011 at 10:06.
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Old 20th Jun 2011, 18:11
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Originally Posted by BEagle
jamesdevice, purely out of curiosity, but just what are your military aviation credentials?


Archimedes....very well put, Sir.
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