Decision to axe Harrier is "bonkers".
high spirits
Bit of a false argument there. The level of escorting a carrier or other high value unit needs is dictated by the threat level. The threat off the coast of Libya is not that high - apart from the no zone the presence of so many NATO warships and ISTAR aircraft means that the chance of a surprise attack is low. Naval units tend to get send to crisis zones anyway - and we have ships busy in the Mediterranean. See this about HMS Liverpool:
Liverpool intercepts suspect ship bound for Libya
TRUCKS for Colonel Gaddafi’s war machine were intercepted by HMS Liverpool as the ship helped draw a dragnet along the Libyan coast.
The Portsmouth-based destroyer intercepted the MV Setubal Express, bound for Tripoli from Malta, and sent her boarding team of Royal Marines and sailors aboard.
There, after a thorough search of the 13,000-ton ferry, they found trucks which could have been used by the Gaddafi regime. They also found the Setubal Express’ manifest did not tally.
Liverpool is operating under the banner of NATO’s Operation Unified Protector. As a result of the destroyer’s inspection, NATO chiefs ordered the ferry not to proceed to Libya, but put into Salerno in Italy.
In addition to enforcing the arms embargo, Liverpool's mission includes directing the Allied aerial mission over Libya enforcing the no-fly zone – including working with Coalition F18 jets, refuelling tankers and maritime patrol aircraft on surveillance missions.
Clearly a carrier would be better equipped for the air direction role.
FB
The carriers would come into their own if we were going to bomb the Marianas!
Did you go to the Gerald Ratner School Of Public Relations? From yesterday's Telegraph:
To overcome a shortage of Nato combat planes France has provided extra fighters and was moving its Charles De Gaulle aircraft near to Misurata to provide “faster rotations and targeting”, said a source.
From here.
Bit of a false argument there. The level of escorting a carrier or other high value unit needs is dictated by the threat level. The threat off the coast of Libya is not that high - apart from the no zone the presence of so many NATO warships and ISTAR aircraft means that the chance of a surprise attack is low. Naval units tend to get send to crisis zones anyway - and we have ships busy in the Mediterranean. See this about HMS Liverpool:
Liverpool intercepts suspect ship bound for Libya
TRUCKS for Colonel Gaddafi’s war machine were intercepted by HMS Liverpool as the ship helped draw a dragnet along the Libyan coast.
The Portsmouth-based destroyer intercepted the MV Setubal Express, bound for Tripoli from Malta, and sent her boarding team of Royal Marines and sailors aboard.
There, after a thorough search of the 13,000-ton ferry, they found trucks which could have been used by the Gaddafi regime. They also found the Setubal Express’ manifest did not tally.
Liverpool is operating under the banner of NATO’s Operation Unified Protector. As a result of the destroyer’s inspection, NATO chiefs ordered the ferry not to proceed to Libya, but put into Salerno in Italy.
In addition to enforcing the arms embargo, Liverpool's mission includes directing the Allied aerial mission over Libya enforcing the no-fly zone – including working with Coalition F18 jets, refuelling tankers and maritime patrol aircraft on surveillance missions.
Clearly a carrier would be better equipped for the air direction role.
FB
The carriers would come into their own if we were going to bomb the Marianas!
Did you go to the Gerald Ratner School Of Public Relations? From yesterday's Telegraph:
To overcome a shortage of Nato combat planes France has provided extra fighters and was moving its Charles De Gaulle aircraft near to Misurata to provide “faster rotations and targeting”, said a source.
From here.
WEBF....why "rotate" if you can loiter? Unless you've fired/dropped everything, what's the point? 6 hour+ missions were commonplace over both Iraq & Afghanistan; I imagine it's the same over Libya. Sure, if the tempo of operations were high enough, you'd bingo out having fired/dropped everything well before that, but is the tempo over Libya that high?
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What the CVN might be doing is moving to provide a seaborne GCAS from relatively close by. As another poster has said, AAR can be used in place of high tempo, but it is convenient to have assets on standby, near at hand, with more weapons if it is deemed fit. If only those new tankers could give you an airborne reload! Of course the baddies don't know when you launch from a flat top, but they do when you launch from GDC or even Marham, perhaps worth thinking about.
Interesting debate going on wrt to Libya. A few things are given in my opinion:
1. CDG probably proves that, whilst it is flexible and available, a single ship class is probably inflexible in its own right. Answer, buy two.
2. CVS had no sweep or CAP for the last few years, without which it was only ever going to be of any use in very permissive environments. Answer, buy multi-role.
2A. Harrier would be very useful in this war but money needed to be saved somewhere. Who to blame seems to be the current focus for this particular one. I reckon it could bring weapons back, and yes I've tried it.
3. Land based air power can get to coastal countries so long as over flight, dipclear etc can be sorted, fuel isn't an issue and bladders are in fine fettle. Answer, buy a big boat or rely on stealth and plausible deniability, or buy all three. Or 'hope it'll be fine', that would work as well.
4. No politician, or anyone of sufficient influence to worry about, is ever going to make up their mind one way or another on the grounds of opinion, heresay, drivel and fiction from an internet forum or blog. These places are for sad individuals like us who can't let the day job go...and for a weird bunch who would like our day job but never really got round to it.
Interesting debate going on wrt to Libya. A few things are given in my opinion:
1. CDG probably proves that, whilst it is flexible and available, a single ship class is probably inflexible in its own right. Answer, buy two.
2. CVS had no sweep or CAP for the last few years, without which it was only ever going to be of any use in very permissive environments. Answer, buy multi-role.
2A. Harrier would be very useful in this war but money needed to be saved somewhere. Who to blame seems to be the current focus for this particular one. I reckon it could bring weapons back, and yes I've tried it.
3. Land based air power can get to coastal countries so long as over flight, dipclear etc can be sorted, fuel isn't an issue and bladders are in fine fettle. Answer, buy a big boat or rely on stealth and plausible deniability, or buy all three. Or 'hope it'll be fine', that would work as well.
4. No politician, or anyone of sufficient influence to worry about, is ever going to make up their mind one way or another on the grounds of opinion, heresay, drivel and fiction from an internet forum or blog. These places are for sad individuals like us who can't let the day job go...and for a weird bunch who would like our day job but never really got round to it.
Originally Posted by orca
2A. ......I reckon it could bring weapons back, and yes I've tried it.
sigh.
In 1998 we didn't have 500lb class PGBs and we didn't have the 107 engine with more than 2000lb of extra thrust, flat rated up to 32degC.
No problem bringing back PWIV or Maverick. And remember overwater temps alongside the ship are less than those inland.
Shall we base analysis of GR4 current (excellent) capability on what you could do in 1998? No? Didn't think so.
Now can we GR types get back to our main task of bantering AirDefenders, sorry I mean Swingers?
In 1998 we didn't have 500lb class PGBs and we didn't have the 107 engine with more than 2000lb of extra thrust, flat rated up to 32degC.
No problem bringing back PWIV or Maverick. And remember overwater temps alongside the ship are less than those inland.
Shall we base analysis of GR4 current (excellent) capability on what you could do in 1998? No? Didn't think so.
Now can we GR types get back to our main task of bantering AirDefenders, sorry I mean Swingers?
In all fairness Sammy, I did say that the uprated engines would probably mitigate against this now.
Anyway, Sharkey seems happy to compare 80's GR1 issues (wing fatigue, iron bombs, serviceability) with the GR9+.......
Anyway, Sharkey seems happy to compare 80's GR1 issues (wing fatigue, iron bombs, serviceability) with the GR9+.......
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Sammy,
When you say Swingers, do you mean the true swinger fraternity that can actual do the job or the AD blokes who can drop a bomb for someone else to spike? Anyone could do that for crying out loud. Banter? OK, here goes.
What's the A-G brief at Coningsby? 'Select weapon - wait until mud hero says 'drop weapon', pickle it, drop into trail, wait until mud hero says 'splash' or 'err..think we've had a flyer', reform in battle using that wonderful data link thingy, do it again'...
Shame really, always found self-des so much more elegant than the whole buddy lase experience.
Kindest regards to those 'over the beach', but come on, swing role...first chap to do it all on your own I'll buy you a beer. And yes I mean all three steps of finding target, dropping bomb, showing bomb the way.
When you say Swingers, do you mean the true swinger fraternity that can actual do the job or the AD blokes who can drop a bomb for someone else to spike? Anyone could do that for crying out loud. Banter? OK, here goes.
What's the A-G brief at Coningsby? 'Select weapon - wait until mud hero says 'drop weapon', pickle it, drop into trail, wait until mud hero says 'splash' or 'err..think we've had a flyer', reform in battle using that wonderful data link thingy, do it again'...
Shame really, always found self-des so much more elegant than the whole buddy lase experience.
Kindest regards to those 'over the beach', but come on, swing role...first chap to do it all on your own I'll buy you a beer. And yes I mean all three steps of finding target, dropping bomb, showing bomb the way.
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I'm sure my enhanced rate can stretch to a two beer round - one of the great benefits of the whole single seat thing!
We could then spend at least two minutes deciding which five button press sequence was the more taxing.
Shall wait for the next honours list and assume that whoever did it is top of the DFC pile. What'll it be, a diet coke spritzer?
Regards, as always, to those over the beach.
We could then spend at least two minutes deciding which five button press sequence was the more taxing.
Shall wait for the next honours list and assume that whoever did it is top of the DFC pile. What'll it be, a diet coke spritzer?
Regards, as always, to those over the beach.
What's the A-G brief at Coningsby? 'Select weapon - wait until mud hero says 'drop weapon', pickle it, drop into trail, wait until mud hero says 'splash' or 'err..think we've had a flyer', reform in battle using that wonderful data link thingy, do it again'...
orca,
Unfortunately it is not that simple - and that is really why Sharkey has rattled so many cages with his inane blog postings. As every politician knows, if you throw enough mud at something, some of it will stick. So Sharkey keeps chucking mud at the RAF, in concert with the steady stream of letters from Woodward, and TV interviews with West. It doesn't matter that much of it is BS that can be directly rebutted by the MoD (and, I am led to believe, even the SofS is fed up with Sharkey)...
All it needs is for the mud-slinging to make the press consistently over a few weeks and it starts to become an issue for Number 10. Number 10 is supposed to consult its defence experts (ie MoD) when making defence decisions, but they don't have to (for example, it is rumoured that Dave's televised suggestion of a no-fly zone a few weeks ago was the first MoD had heard of it).
A press / public perception that Typhoon is rubbish, the Tornado is out of date, the hotels are too expensive, and that everything could be done better by the Navy could end up with a Number-10 led decision which goes against all the "inside knowledge" we all have. At least posting stuff on here gives the journalists something else to read and set against Sharkey's BS.
Sharkey and co. have annoyed the RAF all the more because CAS stated before SDSR that the RAF would not get involved in funding battles through back-door leaks, private briefing, etc etc. This reflects well on the RAF within Main Building itself, but like I said above, it doesn't really help the RAF elsewhere in the corridors of power...
PS Where do you think Sharkey gets his up-to-date information on the exact hotels being used by the RAF dets? Has he got a network of observers in Southern Italy, looking for blokes in flying suits, debriefing their manouevres using hands in the bar? Or is a close relative of his, who works in a major joint operational headquarters, passing him the info? I think we should be told....
No politician, or anyone of sufficient influence to worry about, is ever going to make up their mind one way or another on the grounds of opinion, heresay, drivel and fiction from an internet forum or blog. These places are for sad individuals like us who can't let the day job go...and for a weird bunch who would like our day job but never really got round to it.
All it needs is for the mud-slinging to make the press consistently over a few weeks and it starts to become an issue for Number 10. Number 10 is supposed to consult its defence experts (ie MoD) when making defence decisions, but they don't have to (for example, it is rumoured that Dave's televised suggestion of a no-fly zone a few weeks ago was the first MoD had heard of it).
A press / public perception that Typhoon is rubbish, the Tornado is out of date, the hotels are too expensive, and that everything could be done better by the Navy could end up with a Number-10 led decision which goes against all the "inside knowledge" we all have. At least posting stuff on here gives the journalists something else to read and set against Sharkey's BS.
Sharkey and co. have annoyed the RAF all the more because CAS stated before SDSR that the RAF would not get involved in funding battles through back-door leaks, private briefing, etc etc. This reflects well on the RAF within Main Building itself, but like I said above, it doesn't really help the RAF elsewhere in the corridors of power...
PS Where do you think Sharkey gets his up-to-date information on the exact hotels being used by the RAF dets? Has he got a network of observers in Southern Italy, looking for blokes in flying suits, debriefing their manouevres using hands in the bar? Or is a close relative of his, who works in a major joint operational headquarters, passing him the info? I think we should be told....
Originally Posted by orca
If the info's as duff as is suggested on this thread and another similar one - it isn't coming from PJHQ is it?
Back on topic
'Non-slip paint' is a clue to possible reprieve for threatened Harrier jets - The Scotsman
Refitted aircraft carrier HMS Illustrious is being prepared to accommodate combat aircraft, prompting further speculation that the government is preparing to perform a U-turn on the mothballing of the Harrier fleet.
The Scotsman has learned that the ship's deck, which has been earmarked as a helicopter carrier, has been painted with special paint which would allow for Harriers to fly from it.
While the Ministry of Defence has claimed that this would be normal, even if Illustrious does not have Harriers, Dunfermline and West Fife MP Thomas Docherty told The Scotsman that he was informed on a visit to Rosyth that a grade of paint is being used specifically to allow the fighter jets to be launched.
I understand that flight decks for helicopters use different paint to a CVS flightdeck?
With Britain involved in operations in Libya, the UK has been forced to fly jets from Italian airbases and RAF Marham in Norfolk because it is unable to put a carrier in the Mediterranean.
The Italian bases have proven to be problematic logistically for the RAF and there were also threats at one stage by the Italian government to withdraw their availability.
Oh! That should focus Government minds...
Defence Secretary Liam Fox is believed to be pushing for the Harriers to be brought back and either Illustrious or the recently mothballed Ark Royal to come back into action.Mr Docherty, a member of the Commons Defence Select Committee, was shown on a recent visit to the shipyard in Rosyth, where Illustrious is being refitted, that the carrier's deck has been painted with non-slip paint required for Harriers to be launched from it.
Dr Fox is of course a medical doctor - and therefore trained in evidence based decision making.
Taking the Harriers out of service early has also had a financial cost on the MoD with The Scotsman revealing last month that the government had to write off £1.4 billion in wasted spending out of a total of £6 billion.
I can't remember where, but I did see a rumour that GR9s are/were meant to be going Stateside (sold) as a source of spares. Why not trade in our disused Harrier GR9s for the USMC to use for training, attrition replacements, and spares, in exchange for a smaller number (12-14?) of AV8B+?
high spirits
I still don't understand what your point is. Since the Cole attack the world's Navies have put increased effort and resources into force protection. A carrier is, as you might expect, equipped with a lot of close range weapons, plus she can carry Lynx or Merlins that can be armed with the 0.5 Cal HMG, plus the aircraft can act as ISTAR assets....
Refitted aircraft carrier HMS Illustrious is being prepared to accommodate combat aircraft, prompting further speculation that the government is preparing to perform a U-turn on the mothballing of the Harrier fleet.
The Scotsman has learned that the ship's deck, which has been earmarked as a helicopter carrier, has been painted with special paint which would allow for Harriers to fly from it.
While the Ministry of Defence has claimed that this would be normal, even if Illustrious does not have Harriers, Dunfermline and West Fife MP Thomas Docherty told The Scotsman that he was informed on a visit to Rosyth that a grade of paint is being used specifically to allow the fighter jets to be launched.
I understand that flight decks for helicopters use different paint to a CVS flightdeck?
With Britain involved in operations in Libya, the UK has been forced to fly jets from Italian airbases and RAF Marham in Norfolk because it is unable to put a carrier in the Mediterranean.
The Italian bases have proven to be problematic logistically for the RAF and there were also threats at one stage by the Italian government to withdraw their availability.
Oh! That should focus Government minds...
Defence Secretary Liam Fox is believed to be pushing for the Harriers to be brought back and either Illustrious or the recently mothballed Ark Royal to come back into action.Mr Docherty, a member of the Commons Defence Select Committee, was shown on a recent visit to the shipyard in Rosyth, where Illustrious is being refitted, that the carrier's deck has been painted with non-slip paint required for Harriers to be launched from it.
Dr Fox is of course a medical doctor - and therefore trained in evidence based decision making.
Taking the Harriers out of service early has also had a financial cost on the MoD with The Scotsman revealing last month that the government had to write off £1.4 billion in wasted spending out of a total of £6 billion.
I can't remember where, but I did see a rumour that GR9s are/were meant to be going Stateside (sold) as a source of spares. Why not trade in our disused Harrier GR9s for the USMC to use for training, attrition replacements, and spares, in exchange for a smaller number (12-14?) of AV8B+?
high spirits
I still don't understand what your point is. Since the Cole attack the world's Navies have put increased effort and resources into force protection. A carrier is, as you might expect, equipped with a lot of close range weapons, plus she can carry Lynx or Merlins that can be armed with the 0.5 Cal HMG, plus the aircraft can act as ISTAR assets....
Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 24th Apr 2011 at 21:31. Reason: extra points to add
WEBF - genuine questions:
What state would AR be in now? Surely all her major systems removed, certainly anything classified.
How long/how much to refit to an operational capability?
Same for Illustrious (though I imagine less has been done to her).
How long to re-qualify pilots on the GR9? How long to then get deck re-qualified? Day & night. Would they have to wait until the ship was 'ready'?
Not meant to be negative...it would be great to see the GR9 flying again and especially in support of operations. I just wonder how serious this could be with all the difficulty in getting the boat and the jets and the people back up to speed.
What state would AR be in now? Surely all her major systems removed, certainly anything classified.
How long/how much to refit to an operational capability?
Same for Illustrious (though I imagine less has been done to her).
How long to re-qualify pilots on the GR9? How long to then get deck re-qualified? Day & night. Would they have to wait until the ship was 'ready'?
Not meant to be negative...it would be great to see the GR9 flying again and especially in support of operations. I just wonder how serious this could be with all the difficulty in getting the boat and the jets and the people back up to speed.
By now, 6-12 months for the Ark. Lusty is howver, pretty much good to go for RW or FW. Should be worked up by Nov/Dec. The "paint" thing is utter boll8cks - Camrex is pretty much Camrex. Unless you want to change the spec in "warpaint" for no discernable reason then just stick with it - it will let you play with AV8B and V22 on JMFTEX stateside.
I'm afraid GR9 has gone gentlemen. Wishing will not bring it back - particularly not the BAES design authority guys made redundant recently. There is no reason for USMC or anyone else to pick up 60-odd jets that don't match their own, let alone swap them for AV8B+.
It would be nice to think otherwise, but I'm afraid, reality bites.
That said, the first ship is coming along nicely and the Libyan debacle (aim, not execution) will concentrate the minds in MoD/Downing St as to real efficiencies in our own backyard.
I'm afraid GR9 has gone gentlemen. Wishing will not bring it back - particularly not the BAES design authority guys made redundant recently. There is no reason for USMC or anyone else to pick up 60-odd jets that don't match their own, let alone swap them for AV8B+.
It would be nice to think otherwise, but I'm afraid, reality bites.
That said, the first ship is coming along nicely and the Libyan debacle (aim, not execution) will concentrate the minds in MoD/Downing St as to real efficiencies in our own backyard.
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MP protects vested interest - shock horror
let me see, local MP with ship building industry to support makes case for more ships - you really should do better than that to try to get back to your thread!