Lightning & F-15 photo?
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So, just what was it about XR749 that made it such a high performing aircraft. I can believe that maybe it was a bit lighter, but aerodynamically and in terms of engine performance it should be very similar to other Lightning F3s.
What's the reason?
What's the reason?
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It was probably one of the straightest Lightning's around. Everything breathed on for optimum performance. And one of those aircraft that come along every now and again, that with TLC from the erks, coupled with a very capable driver, just wants to run.
Re "saturn profile" #61
I recall that the "saturn profile" differed from the ‘525’ profile.
The "saturn" made use of the Lightning’s look-up, go-up capabilities and was designed to intercept a high-flying target (circa FL480/0.8) from low level CAP.
From a 180 x ‘wide’, a turning reheat climb at 0.9 aimed for a long rollout astern (14nm?) at FL360, then a diving acceleration to max scanner angle to achieve about M 1.3 before climbing for the intercept – the back end of the normal high-flyer profile.
IIRC the ‘525’ profile and the ‘625’ (flown without probe) were computerised ‘ground environment’ intercepts based on a FL 250 CAP. My experience indicated that these profiles were unnecessarily fuel hungry and half of the intercept information was ‘time to intercept’, which was of little value to the pilot (other than for fuel planning), who required range/bearing.
Both the computerised profiles and ‘saturn’ used aspects of Specific Excess Energy management which provided optimum acceleration profiles and instantaneous manoeuvre capability.
Re ‘a high performing aircraft’. There was strong rumour that one of the OCU’s T5s had a small manufacturing discrepancy in the intake shape. Thus, at supersonic speed the inlet efficiency (shockwave formation) was much less than designed, this restricted the acceleration and max speed. Even so most T5s struggled to make M1.5 for a ‘ten ton’ ride (fuel limit).
An aerodynamically clean aircraft with two top spec, new engines would always out perform older, 'bent' models.
I recall that the "saturn profile" differed from the ‘525’ profile.
The "saturn" made use of the Lightning’s look-up, go-up capabilities and was designed to intercept a high-flying target (circa FL480/0.8) from low level CAP.
From a 180 x ‘wide’, a turning reheat climb at 0.9 aimed for a long rollout astern (14nm?) at FL360, then a diving acceleration to max scanner angle to achieve about M 1.3 before climbing for the intercept – the back end of the normal high-flyer profile.
IIRC the ‘525’ profile and the ‘625’ (flown without probe) were computerised ‘ground environment’ intercepts based on a FL 250 CAP. My experience indicated that these profiles were unnecessarily fuel hungry and half of the intercept information was ‘time to intercept’, which was of little value to the pilot (other than for fuel planning), who required range/bearing.
Both the computerised profiles and ‘saturn’ used aspects of Specific Excess Energy management which provided optimum acceleration profiles and instantaneous manoeuvre capability.
Re ‘a high performing aircraft’. There was strong rumour that one of the OCU’s T5s had a small manufacturing discrepancy in the intake shape. Thus, at supersonic speed the inlet efficiency (shockwave formation) was much less than designed, this restricted the acceleration and max speed. Even so most T5s struggled to make M1.5 for a ‘ten ton’ ride (fuel limit).
An aerodynamically clean aircraft with two top spec, new engines would always out perform older, 'bent' models.
Lightning Height Record?
I apologise for the length of this thread, but it is an honest, first-hand account of attaining nearly 88000ft! While on 74 Sqn at Tengah 1968-71 I had an urge to try to find the maximum altitude a Mark 6 Lightning could reach in the tropical air just north of the Equator. At these latitudes, the Tropopause is at its highest, regularly around 55,000ft and this would give the F6, with its Rolls-Royce Avon 302s, their best chance.
Eventually everything fell into place. A Victor tanker returning to Singapore from Hong Kong was offering 17,000lb fuel to giveaway as it entered Malaysian airspace on the northeast coast, which was coincidentally the area in which we were permitted to fly supersonic. I was allocated the trip and flew up to the Malaysia-Thailand border to rendezvous with the tanker before ‘filling to full’. I was now some 300 miles north of base with a clear line down the east coast of Malaysia and no restrictions.
I climbed to 50,000ft, which was the subsonic service ceiling of the Lightning and then accelerated to Mach 2 before flying a zoom climb at the best climb angle (as we understood it to be) of 16 degrees. Before I lost all performance I levelled off at 65,000ft and accelerated once more, amazed at the speed at which this occurred and this time let the aircraft have its head to 2.2M before easing the nose up to reach 70,000ft with no loss of speed and once again pulled back the stick to set 16 degrees of climb. Up we went, though as the altitude – and speed – reduced, the lack of downwash over the tail plane meant that the stick came further and further aft to hold the climb attitude. Eventually, the nose slowly dropped and I levelled off 200ft short of 88,000ft. From this vantage point I could see Singapore as a very small island ahead (and well below) and could convince myself that I could see Vietnam over my left shoulder, Borneo to my left and the coastline of Sumatra beyond the western Malaysian coast. Above me the sky was pitch black and the curvature of the earth clearly visible. Nowadays we are very familiar with how the earth looks from way above, but then it was not at all a common sight and I relished the opportunity to see it for myself. Although the stick was firmly on the backstops, the ailerons were still very responsive and until I touched the throttles, the reheats had remained lit. However, rolling the aircraft over and looking vertically downward I suddenly had the feeling that I was balanced on the ferrule of an extremely long umbrella and I suddenly realised that I did not belong up here. Setting idle/idle gave me my only fearful moment as the warning bells went off in my headset for a major warning on the Central Warning Panel; the CPR warning was illuminated, telling me that the pressurisation was outside the aircraft’s limits. At 50,000ft the cabin altitude was maintained at 27,000 – the easy way to remember what it should read was ‘half the height plus 2’, so at 80,000 I should have been at 42,000 in the cockpit. The lack of air form the engine bleed had allowed the cockpit altitude to rise above this and the warning was the result. I was wearing my pressure jerkin and, of course, my anti-g suit, but the pressurised Taylor helmet initially issued to the Lightning Force had been taken out of service. There was some oxygen overpressure fed to my mask though I do not remember it being very much, so once I realised that the reason for the CPR warning was not the major problem I had at first thought, I went back to enjoying the view and started an extremely long glide back to Tengah. A final bit of fun was making my RT call to Singapore Radar (a unit manned by RAF personnel) for recovery to Tengah: to their question asking my height I responded that I was above 45,000 or Flight Level 450. In those days almost all controlled airspace stopped at this altitude and you did not have to give away your actual altitude. I was, however, approaching the airways that radiated from Singapore and they became persistent, so it was nice to hear their reaction to my admission that I was “Passing Flight Level 720!”
Although this sortie was a marvellous example of the Lightning’s performance, though despite my pressure jerkin and G-suit, I was hardly well equipped for safe flight at such heights. Nevertheless, I can lay claim to the world altitude record for the Lightning of 87,800ft!
Eventually everything fell into place. A Victor tanker returning to Singapore from Hong Kong was offering 17,000lb fuel to giveaway as it entered Malaysian airspace on the northeast coast, which was coincidentally the area in which we were permitted to fly supersonic. I was allocated the trip and flew up to the Malaysia-Thailand border to rendezvous with the tanker before ‘filling to full’. I was now some 300 miles north of base with a clear line down the east coast of Malaysia and no restrictions.
I climbed to 50,000ft, which was the subsonic service ceiling of the Lightning and then accelerated to Mach 2 before flying a zoom climb at the best climb angle (as we understood it to be) of 16 degrees. Before I lost all performance I levelled off at 65,000ft and accelerated once more, amazed at the speed at which this occurred and this time let the aircraft have its head to 2.2M before easing the nose up to reach 70,000ft with no loss of speed and once again pulled back the stick to set 16 degrees of climb. Up we went, though as the altitude – and speed – reduced, the lack of downwash over the tail plane meant that the stick came further and further aft to hold the climb attitude. Eventually, the nose slowly dropped and I levelled off 200ft short of 88,000ft. From this vantage point I could see Singapore as a very small island ahead (and well below) and could convince myself that I could see Vietnam over my left shoulder, Borneo to my left and the coastline of Sumatra beyond the western Malaysian coast. Above me the sky was pitch black and the curvature of the earth clearly visible. Nowadays we are very familiar with how the earth looks from way above, but then it was not at all a common sight and I relished the opportunity to see it for myself. Although the stick was firmly on the backstops, the ailerons were still very responsive and until I touched the throttles, the reheats had remained lit. However, rolling the aircraft over and looking vertically downward I suddenly had the feeling that I was balanced on the ferrule of an extremely long umbrella and I suddenly realised that I did not belong up here. Setting idle/idle gave me my only fearful moment as the warning bells went off in my headset for a major warning on the Central Warning Panel; the CPR warning was illuminated, telling me that the pressurisation was outside the aircraft’s limits. At 50,000ft the cabin altitude was maintained at 27,000 – the easy way to remember what it should read was ‘half the height plus 2’, so at 80,000 I should have been at 42,000 in the cockpit. The lack of air form the engine bleed had allowed the cockpit altitude to rise above this and the warning was the result. I was wearing my pressure jerkin and, of course, my anti-g suit, but the pressurised Taylor helmet initially issued to the Lightning Force had been taken out of service. There was some oxygen overpressure fed to my mask though I do not remember it being very much, so once I realised that the reason for the CPR warning was not the major problem I had at first thought, I went back to enjoying the view and started an extremely long glide back to Tengah. A final bit of fun was making my RT call to Singapore Radar (a unit manned by RAF personnel) for recovery to Tengah: to their question asking my height I responded that I was above 45,000 or Flight Level 450. In those days almost all controlled airspace stopped at this altitude and you did not have to give away your actual altitude. I was, however, approaching the airways that radiated from Singapore and they became persistent, so it was nice to hear their reaction to my admission that I was “Passing Flight Level 720!”
Although this sortie was a marvellous example of the Lightning’s performance, though despite my pressure jerkin and G-suit, I was hardly well equipped for safe flight at such heights. Nevertheless, I can lay claim to the world altitude record for the Lightning of 87,800ft!
And I'd bet that you'd jump at the chance of having another crack at that record, eh Dave?
Excellent account
- I did like the throwaway line:
I've just been watching Test Pilot and all the TP students clearly considered the Lightning to be the best aircraft in the ETPS fleet at the time!
Excellent account
- I did like the throwaway line:
I climbed to 50,000ft, which was the subsonic service ceiling of the Lightning and then accelerated to Mach 2...
I've just been watching Test Pilot and all the TP students clearly considered the Lightning to be the best aircraft in the ETPS fleet at the time!
Gus Crockett once volunteered to me that he'd got a Mk6 above 80,000' using a similar technique to that described by Dave Roome. He also confessed that he was frightened f@rtless!
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Hmmmmmm. Finishes the thread eh?
And there was I thinking that was the job of the moderators, or the OP.
Not, only that, I thought this was still a Lightning and F15 photo thread!
And there was I thinking that was the job of the moderators, or the OP.
Not, only that, I thought this was still a Lightning and F15 photo thread!
Finishes the thread as in "top that" ... but you knew that is what I meant ... didn't you?
Oh hello Mr. D. Roome.
Not seen you for a very very very long time.........
I have been following this thread and enjoying some comments from some very well-informed people (I include myself after two Lightning tours)
However, the comments from those who have not a single clue, most of whom have not been near a Lightning, let alone flown one, are very sad indeed.
Bye bye.
Lightning Mate
Not seen you for a very very very long time.........
I have been following this thread and enjoying some comments from some very well-informed people (I include myself after two Lightning tours)
However, the comments from those who have not a single clue, most of whom have not been near a Lightning, let alone flown one, are very sad indeed.
Bye bye.
Lightning Mate
Ah LM I thought you spent all your time in the history section these days!! I too have been well above the published ceiling but not as high as D Roome! When I did it the No2 engine flamed out so life got a bit hectic until I managed a relight at a lower altitude!
Cheers
Newt
Cheers
Newt
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Coming full circle, I've just seen, bought and read the Aviation Classics publication that kicked off the thread...
Very well worth a trip to WH Smith and £7 - even without any pictures of a Lightning with an F15...
Very well worth a trip to WH Smith and £7 - even without any pictures of a Lightning with an F15...
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I thought this may be of interest, from AvWeb.
Near-Finished Historic Restoration Stalled.
Late in the Oshkosh week we found a group of dedicated volunteers passionately involved in the restoration of a very rare and historic aircraft; the 10-year project is just months from completion, and they've run out of funds. The British Aerospace Lightning was the first Mach 2 British interceptor and the last all-British-made aircraft of its kind (all subsequent fighter/interceptors have been born of coalition efforts involving multiple nations). As such, the Lightning has earned a precious place in the hearts of many British aviation enthusiasts and often evokes the same admiration, respect, and sense of awe earned by the Spitfire. Today, there are three airworthy Lightnings in the world. None are currently flying. The Anglo-American Lightning Organization says it's potentially 12 to 16 weeks from first flight -- here in the U.S. -- but now they'll need help. And if your pockets are deep, that may mean a special opportunity.
The Anglo American Lightning Organization is offering six $100,000 shares in the aircraft, which would provide privileges including "full rights for aircraft flight in the right-hand seat." The dedicated restoration team will retain a 40% share. The all-volunteer group made up of RAF, ex-RAF and ex Royal Saudi Air Force servicemen who all have experience with the type. Their project is based here in the U.S. at Stennis International Airport, Miss. They estimate they're about $600,000 short of the finish line and then they hope to go one essential step further. Returning the aircraft to airworthy condition is just part of the group's overall goal of returning it to the air, which will require cooperation with the FAA. The aircraft are not permitted to fly in Britain, though they may perform high-speed taxi runs with their twin-stacked engines thrown into afterburner. For more information about the program, or to contribute, visit the group's web site or contact nholman AT globalnet.co.uk.
Near-Finished Historic Restoration Stalled.
Late in the Oshkosh week we found a group of dedicated volunteers passionately involved in the restoration of a very rare and historic aircraft; the 10-year project is just months from completion, and they've run out of funds. The British Aerospace Lightning was the first Mach 2 British interceptor and the last all-British-made aircraft of its kind (all subsequent fighter/interceptors have been born of coalition efforts involving multiple nations). As such, the Lightning has earned a precious place in the hearts of many British aviation enthusiasts and often evokes the same admiration, respect, and sense of awe earned by the Spitfire. Today, there are three airworthy Lightnings in the world. None are currently flying. The Anglo-American Lightning Organization says it's potentially 12 to 16 weeks from first flight -- here in the U.S. -- but now they'll need help. And if your pockets are deep, that may mean a special opportunity.
The Anglo American Lightning Organization is offering six $100,000 shares in the aircraft, which would provide privileges including "full rights for aircraft flight in the right-hand seat." The dedicated restoration team will retain a 40% share. The all-volunteer group made up of RAF, ex-RAF and ex Royal Saudi Air Force servicemen who all have experience with the type. Their project is based here in the U.S. at Stennis International Airport, Miss. They estimate they're about $600,000 short of the finish line and then they hope to go one essential step further. Returning the aircraft to airworthy condition is just part of the group's overall goal of returning it to the air, which will require cooperation with the FAA. The aircraft are not permitted to fly in Britain, though they may perform high-speed taxi runs with their twin-stacked engines thrown into afterburner. For more information about the program, or to contribute, visit the group's web site or contact nholman AT globalnet.co.uk.
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View from the other side of the counter in the line hut.
Hey Less of the "erks"
I have been a CIVI erk since 1968 with 10 years at 30 MU Three years at RASF Tabuk and the rest of my time in atmospheric research with Met Office MRF (Snoopy) at Farnborough. working at Post doc level on instrument development.
Now that is challenging work and you have to be pretty bright to qualify.
Well I have to admit the lightning is as much a challenge as leading science research.
I am currently OC elect / Avionics XS422 Anglo American Lightning Organisation.
Gatwick Aviation Museum electronics / avionics
XS422 Cranfield T bird Electrical / Avionics consultant.
So fully up to speed with this awsome bit of kit.
In Saudi, at the end of the contract, they returned 35 ish airframes with 2000Hrs ish on them and to my mind there was only one case of a lightning reverting to agriculture due to a thehnical failure.
So thats 70K Hrs with one failure. OK 35,000 hrs MTBF thats not bad not bad at all.
If any one out ther has more info on the RSAF case would love to here from you.
A Lightning T Bird flying SAFELY in the US now that is worth rooting for.
The Tech sorry "grunts" team has more Lightning experience than enough to operate it safely.
Was only talking to an Ex CAA bod the other day and suprise suprise,, acording to this bod, the only reason Lightnings were banned in the UK was not on engineering grounds but they felt they could not trust the drivers to be sensible!!!!
Now that suprised me quite a lot.
Won't go into the S.A. issue but it won't happen in the USA.
Any ex lightning engineers sparkies you are still needed providing you can cut it.
There are arm chairs but only in the crew room.
RB
Hey Less of the "erks"
I have been a CIVI erk since 1968 with 10 years at 30 MU Three years at RASF Tabuk and the rest of my time in atmospheric research with Met Office MRF (Snoopy) at Farnborough. working at Post doc level on instrument development.
Now that is challenging work and you have to be pretty bright to qualify.
Well I have to admit the lightning is as much a challenge as leading science research.
I am currently OC elect / Avionics XS422 Anglo American Lightning Organisation.
Gatwick Aviation Museum electronics / avionics
XS422 Cranfield T bird Electrical / Avionics consultant.
So fully up to speed with this awsome bit of kit.
In Saudi, at the end of the contract, they returned 35 ish airframes with 2000Hrs ish on them and to my mind there was only one case of a lightning reverting to agriculture due to a thehnical failure.
So thats 70K Hrs with one failure. OK 35,000 hrs MTBF thats not bad not bad at all.
If any one out ther has more info on the RSAF case would love to here from you.
A Lightning T Bird flying SAFELY in the US now that is worth rooting for.
The Tech sorry "grunts" team has more Lightning experience than enough to operate it safely.
Was only talking to an Ex CAA bod the other day and suprise suprise,, acording to this bod, the only reason Lightnings were banned in the UK was not on engineering grounds but they felt they could not trust the drivers to be sensible!!!!
Now that suprised me quite a lot.
Won't go into the S.A. issue but it won't happen in the USA.
Any ex lightning engineers sparkies you are still needed providing you can cut it.
There are arm chairs but only in the crew room.
RB
And I'd bet that you'd jump at the chance of having another crack at that record, eh Dave?
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XR749 a legend in it's own lunch time
A question that has always puzzled me..... Super hero mike h flew xr749 to infinity and beyond and tells us that the night before he spent the evening polishing his trusty steed just to get a few more kts out of her..... Can you explainl how you polish an aircraft that is painted with a roller brush in Matt grey and green thick paint???? Also the fighter controller who says pilots flew up to fl850 at the end of the lightning force is talking rubbish most flights were up to a maximum of fl 400 perhaps fl 450 as everyone was doing combat at 10.000 feet trying to use up the little fatigue that was left. Having flown the SR-71 and the Ltg I know very well what the difference between fact and fiction is. Please let's not destroy the truth which was pretty awesome with utter BS rgds Scruffy Fanny
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I'm no frightening driver, just an admirer of such things but it seems your arrival on thread needs some explanation if you are set to de-bunk the comments of other seasoned and respected posters.
I assume you didn't just get all of this banter from a bloke in a pub and can add some authenticity?
Impressive that you have flown both the SR-71 and Lightning...
ps. Wasn't XR749 a nice shiny metallic finish at some time?
I assume you didn't just get all of this banter from a bloke in a pub and can add some authenticity?
Impressive that you have flown both the SR-71 and Lightning...
ps. Wasn't XR749 a nice shiny metallic finish at some time?
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Urban Myth
XR749 was silver until circa 1976 - as far as I'm aware "Buzz Lightyear" didn't join the RAF till 1978-79 so he would have been flying said airframe in 1982-83 long after it was painted. Although for reasons of national security I can't reveal my identity I'm merely trying to dispel some of the exaggerated stories of high flight. To fly the SR-71 one needed approximate 3 hours of prep just to put the Flt suit on and sit breathing 100% 02 for 2 hours to suggest UK pilots did the same profile in a Flt suit and mlk3 helmet with Q mask is laughable. If you look at the Lightning canopy all that prevents a rapid decompression is a small grey rubber seal that inflated with bleed air once shut. I know during an airiest in 1984 a seal deflated due to age which was certainly a scary experience. Yes the Lightning was brilliant - superb but no it wasn't Saturn 5 and nor could it beat the F15/16 in combat - unless they were flown by aggressively below average pilots.