UK signs Hawk 128 contract
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There was a jot of miscellaneous "junk" hung on the Hawk pylons over the years, a great deal of which was NEVER going to be practical.
Sea Eagle simply didn't fit - as DZ says the ground clearance was negligible, to the extent it was all-but impossible to load the damn thing onto the pylon (since the missile has to have clearance with the pylon in order to get under the pylon on some kind of loading mechanism). I believe one genius suggested loading it while the A/C was on jacks.
In addition, Sea Eagle has/had a minimum speed for release, to give the engine a chance to light up. I don't think Hawk could achieve that speed in level flight with it attached.
Skyflash was another "everything BAE must carry BAE weapons" marketing idea, and just as insane. Speed was just one of the issues.
But the stupidest stores option ever presented for a Hawk was a Kingston/Dunsfold special: In 1983, some clever person decided that carrying Stingray - yes, an anti-submarine torpedo - on the OB pylon was a good idea, and trial fits were carried out. There's a picture of it in the old Ian Allan/Arthur Reed book on the aircraft which never failed to amuse.
We were convinced that there was an Airfix model of the aircraft somewhere in marketing, and one of those boxes of random spare weapons, and every so often someone would glue a randomly selected weapon on their model, and decide it was a good idea.
Sea Eagle simply didn't fit - as DZ says the ground clearance was negligible, to the extent it was all-but impossible to load the damn thing onto the pylon (since the missile has to have clearance with the pylon in order to get under the pylon on some kind of loading mechanism). I believe one genius suggested loading it while the A/C was on jacks.
In addition, Sea Eagle has/had a minimum speed for release, to give the engine a chance to light up. I don't think Hawk could achieve that speed in level flight with it attached.
Skyflash was another "everything BAE must carry BAE weapons" marketing idea, and just as insane. Speed was just one of the issues.
But the stupidest stores option ever presented for a Hawk was a Kingston/Dunsfold special: In 1983, some clever person decided that carrying Stingray - yes, an anti-submarine torpedo - on the OB pylon was a good idea, and trial fits were carried out. There's a picture of it in the old Ian Allan/Arthur Reed book on the aircraft which never failed to amuse.
We were convinced that there was an Airfix model of the aircraft somewhere in marketing, and one of those boxes of random spare weapons, and every so often someone would glue a randomly selected weapon on their model, and decide it was a good idea.
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Thanks for confirming what I'd always suspected - we at Dunsfold regarded some at Kingston as prats long before Wart On moved in !
I have to admit I am responsible for the photo's of the Hawk carrying Stingray torpedo's, - even then I was asking myself and flight test engineers " What the hell's this to do with ? " but got no sensible answers, so concluded it was either a secret project or more likely as you say BAe B.S...
While ' loading missiles with the aircraft on jacks ' is mentioned, well I'm not saying for a minute the Hawk / Sea Eagle was a good idea ( except I suppose as a last resort in war ) but the Harrier 2 GR5 had to be jacked up to replace the Sidewinder nitrogen bottles on the special UK fit pylons, as they had the outrigger u/c legs right behind.
I would still suggest to the U.S. Marines they're worth having though ! - especially as -
Since sorted by using very handy other types of launcher rails, I once photographed a mock-up Harrier 2+ with these & 6 AMRAAMS which seemed impressive to me - might need an airfield rather than carrier to 'bring back' though.
I have to admit I am responsible for the photo's of the Hawk carrying Stingray torpedo's, - even then I was asking myself and flight test engineers " What the hell's this to do with ? " but got no sensible answers, so concluded it was either a secret project or more likely as you say BAe B.S...
While ' loading missiles with the aircraft on jacks ' is mentioned, well I'm not saying for a minute the Hawk / Sea Eagle was a good idea ( except I suppose as a last resort in war ) but the Harrier 2 GR5 had to be jacked up to replace the Sidewinder nitrogen bottles on the special UK fit pylons, as they had the outrigger u/c legs right behind.
I would still suggest to the U.S. Marines they're worth having though ! - especially as -
Since sorted by using very handy other types of launcher rails, I once photographed a mock-up Harrier 2+ with these & 6 AMRAAMS which seemed impressive to me - might need an airfield rather than carrier to 'bring back' though.
Last edited by Double Zero; 5th Jan 2008 at 11:13.
Surely even 't Bungling Baron's folk in clog-and-whippet land aren't stupid enough to provide a TWU jet without at least the 'dog's dick' gun pod.....
Or were the MoD too stupid to specify such a requirement?
Otherwise, why not scrap everything and anything 'real' - and just piss about with Microsoft Flight Simulator?
Nothing can properly simulate the experience of hot strafe on the range - the first exposure a baby Bloggs gets to proper air-to-sand weaponeering!
Even in the little Hawk.....
Or were the MoD too stupid to specify such a requirement?
Otherwise, why not scrap everything and anything 'real' - and just piss about with Microsoft Flight Simulator?
Nothing can properly simulate the experience of hot strafe on the range - the first exposure a baby Bloggs gets to proper air-to-sand weaponeering!
Even in the little Hawk.....
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Yes I am a Dunsfoldite as you put it, a result of experience with the whippet botherers ( look what they've done in this instance, I rest my case ) and Beagle you sound like you're hinting at common sense - come on, tell us what you really think !
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BAE confirms it will cut 600 jobs
BAE confirms it will cut 600 jobs - BBC 3 Apr 08
How very sad.
However, a Reuters report back in January looked ominous. See post 5 in this thread.
Defence company BAE has confirmed it will cut almost 600 jobs at its Brough site, near Hull and its Woodford plant near Manchester.
A failure to win new orders is partly behind the move, which will see almost a quarter of the 2,000 staff at Brough lose their jobs.
Engineering posts are most at risk, but staff in support and manufacturing at Brough will also be affected.
Union officials said they would resist compulsory redundancies.
Cuts at Brough were thought likely after BAE lost a big contract to supply 35 Hawk trainer jets to the United Arab Emirates
A failure to win new orders is partly behind the move, which will see almost a quarter of the 2,000 staff at Brough lose their jobs.
Engineering posts are most at risk, but staff in support and manufacturing at Brough will also be affected.
Union officials said they would resist compulsory redundancies.
Cuts at Brough were thought likely after BAE lost a big contract to supply 35 Hawk trainer jets to the United Arab Emirates
However, a Reuters report back in January looked ominous. See post 5 in this thread.
Last edited by LFFC; 3rd Apr 2008 at 21:38.
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No surprises here then. The Hawk airframe has realistically come to the end of its life; there are much better airframes now available on the market. BAE's only hope is that the software they're designing for the 128 is good enough to lure a final small order or two. The big problem is that the Hawk airframe is not optimised for the current generation of agile fighters. Also, the development of the airframe from the original T Mk1 to the 128 has resulted in too many technical and aerodynamic compromises.
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Until recently I was a "Brough-ite", and cutting 600 jobs from the site is a lot. Pretty soon the site will become unsustainable, so the question is what will happen then?
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Cuts at Brough were thought likely after BAE lost a big contract to supply 35 Hawk trainer jets to the United Arab Emirates
The Hawk airframe has realistically come to the end of its life
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Perhaps (if true) the chaps doing the deal were rather hesitant to offer 'gifts' to the buyers after the Saudi Typhoon affair?
Still, a shame for all involved, what was the competition?
Still, a shame for all involved, what was the competition?
Hawk was dropped from the UAE advanced trainer competition on 30 October 2007.
At the time of the Dubai Air Show in November 2007, the remaining aircraft in the competition were the Aermacchi M-346 twin-jet, which the Italian Air Force will surely buy, and the Korea Aero T/A-50 which has natch been ordered by the Korean Air Force. The international version of the T/A-50 is supported by Lockheed Martin. Both types are supersonic and fly-by-wire, with reconfigurable control systems and instrumentation.
As Korea Aero say in their blurb
airsound
At the time of the Dubai Air Show in November 2007, the remaining aircraft in the competition were the Aermacchi M-346 twin-jet, which the Italian Air Force will surely buy, and the Korea Aero T/A-50 which has natch been ordered by the Korean Air Force. The international version of the T/A-50 is supported by Lockheed Martin. Both types are supersonic and fly-by-wire, with reconfigurable control systems and instrumentation.
As Korea Aero say in their blurb
many current advanced jet trainers are so old as to be older than the pilots they are training
Last edited by airsound; 4th Apr 2008 at 11:00. Reason: spelling
Ogre, it's not Brough-ite. The collective name is Broughian.
I'd argue that only a bean counter could remove 'live' weapons from training. Just the disciplines required to load, handle and fly with live wepaons makes the event worthwhile. The sound, feel and smell of the real things is irreplaceable.
Sadly I suspect the view posted earlier that the Hawk airframe is at the end of its life is pretty accurate. With aircraft like the A/T 50 around the Hawk does look pretty dated. However, the Hawk avionics are good and an excellent stepping stone to modern fighters.
I'd argue that only a bean counter could remove 'live' weapons from training. Just the disciplines required to load, handle and fly with live wepaons makes the event worthwhile. The sound, feel and smell of the real things is irreplaceable.
Sadly I suspect the view posted earlier that the Hawk airframe is at the end of its life is pretty accurate. With aircraft like the A/T 50 around the Hawk does look pretty dated. However, the Hawk avionics are good and an excellent stepping stone to modern fighters.
