Future Carrier (Including Costs)
Thread Starter
But the V22 is getting sorted out surely? See this from Target Lock.
Carrier borne Ospreys could also perform a limited organic AAR role - to complement FSTA. They could also perform a COD role. On that note, has the USN ever considered a tanker version of the E2?
Some interesting comments made here on the ezboard RN board. No I am not a registered user.
Carrier borne Ospreys could also perform a limited organic AAR role - to complement FSTA. They could also perform a COD role. On that note, has the USN ever considered a tanker version of the E2?
Some interesting comments made here on the ezboard RN board. No I am not a registered user.
V-22 sorted? Not hardly....it is still in use. One small example of the problems is an engine change aboard ship. It has to be done on the flight deck and not in the hangar deck due to height problems in the configuration required to change the engine.
Check the dimensions of the cabin and ramp entrance when you consider it as a COD aircraft. Also consider the payload as compared to current COD aircraft.
Bottom line....consider it's cost vice an airplane of any description that would fill these roles. The E-2 does the AEW role admirably (probably a bad use of word considering some of the Admirals about today). At approximately 51 Million USD per copy.....it beats the hell out of the V22. The E-2D is coming off the line and will be state of the art when it comes into service.
Rotorheads forum has an ongoing discussion of the V-22 in this thread:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...ght=V22+Osprey
Check the dimensions of the cabin and ramp entrance when you consider it as a COD aircraft. Also consider the payload as compared to current COD aircraft.
Bottom line....consider it's cost vice an airplane of any description that would fill these roles. The E-2 does the AEW role admirably (probably a bad use of word considering some of the Admirals about today). At approximately 51 Million USD per copy.....it beats the hell out of the V22. The E-2D is coming off the line and will be state of the art when it comes into service.
Rotorheads forum has an ongoing discussion of the V-22 in this thread:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...ght=V22+Osprey
Last edited by SASless; 19th May 2006 at 15:26.
The V-22 is being forced into service whatever the cost. I have seen no numbers that suggest that has any advantages in a basic tactical transport role over a conventional helicopter (Merlin is the closest comparison) and it suffers several disadvantages (no good place to put defensive guns, high-energy downwash & brownouts). It will go farther at high speed than a helo, which gives it certain advantages in special ops (deeper penetration in the hours of night, for instance). I would also question whether its speed/altitude would even be adequate to refuel fighters, and its ability to give fuel at range would be marginal.
Thread Starter
SASless We (the UK) currently use helicopters for COD (well HDS) so V22 may be a step up.
I understand that the current Hawkeye has limitations that the new one will avoid, but if our carriers cannot take it, which throws something of a spanner in the works.
I have heard that the USMC are considering a Command and control version of the Osprey. The Target Lock link I gave suggested a service ceiling of 26 000 ft, which would give it a much better radar horizon than a pure rotary platform.
I understand that the current Hawkeye has limitations that the new one will avoid, but if our carriers cannot take it, which throws something of a spanner in the works.
I have heard that the USMC are considering a Command and control version of the Osprey. The Target Lock link I gave suggested a service ceiling of 26 000 ft, which would give it a much better radar horizon than a pure rotary platform.
No way on Gods green earth should we even consider a MASC Osprey. Three principal reasons :
1. Aerodynamically a dome would be difficult to fit while deconflicting from the tilt-rotors in flight. You'd need a conformal array to make it work (the ground clearance prohibits a chin or belly fit).
2. Have you SEEN the folding mechanism for Osprey?????? Just imagine complicating that by avoiding a dome (or a bag if we do a cheapy)
3. The developmental / certification costs for the likely 12 airframes would make MRA4 look like a bargain.
The USMC do not have (and never will, they either talk to E3 or E2) a requirement for a MASC-like capability, so there's no commonality there. That leaves the handful of other fleet STOVL operators (Italians, Spanish) which is never going to make up sufficeint numbers.
If we want a decent MASC, buy cats and wires for CVF, bin the Stovie and buy Dave-CV and get some E2 for MASC. You never know, we might even be able to get some S3 airframes (or C2 Greyhounds) for COD/Tanker, rather than fit buddy tanks to a payload limited jet.......
Trouble is, there's probably no funding in the EP for anything more than a Bag / Merlin cross-deck, due to assumptions made 6-7 yrs ago and never updated. Mmmmm, Smart Procurement........
1. Aerodynamically a dome would be difficult to fit while deconflicting from the tilt-rotors in flight. You'd need a conformal array to make it work (the ground clearance prohibits a chin or belly fit).
2. Have you SEEN the folding mechanism for Osprey?????? Just imagine complicating that by avoiding a dome (or a bag if we do a cheapy)
3. The developmental / certification costs for the likely 12 airframes would make MRA4 look like a bargain.
The USMC do not have (and never will, they either talk to E3 or E2) a requirement for a MASC-like capability, so there's no commonality there. That leaves the handful of other fleet STOVL operators (Italians, Spanish) which is never going to make up sufficeint numbers.
If we want a decent MASC, buy cats and wires for CVF, bin the Stovie and buy Dave-CV and get some E2 for MASC. You never know, we might even be able to get some S3 airframes (or C2 Greyhounds) for COD/Tanker, rather than fit buddy tanks to a payload limited jet.......
Trouble is, there's probably no funding in the EP for anything more than a Bag / Merlin cross-deck, due to assumptions made 6-7 yrs ago and never updated. Mmmmm, Smart Procurement........
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Accoridng to the French, the RN will only get 1 CVF (and not replace Trident):
Translation www.assemblee-nationale.f...506033.asp
Logo of the site of the French National Assembly
Reports of the commission of national defense and the armed forces Businesses trangres
COMMISSION of NATIONAL DEFENSE and the ARMED FORCES
Report N° 33
(Application of article 46 of the Payment)
Wednesday May 3, 2006
(10 hours Meeting)
Presidency of Mr. Guy Teissier, president
Hearing of Mr. Jean-Marie Poimbœuf, general president-director of DCN.
The commission of national defense and the armed forces heard Mr. Jean-Marie Poimbœuf, president-director general of DCN.
President Guy Teissier observed that the company, in 2005, had obtained very satisfactory results, underlining the level record of the order takings thanks in particular to the European frigates multimissions - FREMM -, to the Scorpene submarines and the conditional phase of the SNLE - nuclear submarine launcher of machines - the Terrible one.
It wished to obtain precise details on the final results of 2005 and their distribution, on the operational performances of the company, in constant improvement, on the progress report of the programs in co-operation, particularly of the second aircraft carrier, the PA2, on the prospects as regards exports, the final stages of the agreement between DCN and Thales Naval France, which made run much ink, like on the difficulties encountered concerning the development of the system of combat of the Mistral.
Mr. Jean-Marie Poimbœuf recalled that DCN, it there has less than three years, still belonged to the administration of the ministry for defense, before being transformed, the 1erJune 2003, in national company of private law. The evolution was initiated at the beginning of the years 2000 and the first stage carried out in 2003, with two objectives: to improve the effectiveness, the reactivity, the productivity of the company; he to give the capacity to take part in the necessary structuring of the naval sector of defense French and European.
He confirmed that 2005 had been one record year in terms of order takings: more than 4 billion euros for 2,8 billion sales turnover, with three great contracts. Firstly, the contract on the FREMM, signed in November 2005, which comprises a firm phase of eight buildings, has been the best obtained by DCN for fifty years: it will structure during the ten next years its presence on the segment of the armed ships, which represents a little more than 60 % of its activity. Secondly, the contract with the export of six Scorpene towards India, signed and come into effect at the end of 2005, is the third recorded in five years, which refers of this submarine world. Thirdly, in the field of the maintenance in operational condition, i.e. services, which represents 30 % of the activity of DCN, the majority of the contracts signed to the profit of the national marine came to a end in 2005 and it was a question of renewing them: the company gained 70 % of those which were opened with competition - better than its objective of 50 % -, without counting the contracts withdrawn from the competition taking into account their specificity, relating to the maintenance of the nuclear buildings primarily. Thus DCN saw the total of its order book to place from 6 billion to more than 8 billion euros between beginning and the end of 2005.
Acting of the activity, 2005 were also an important year since DCN delivered in December its first Scorpene to the Chilean navy as well as the first frigate on a contract of six to the Singaporean navy and the last to Saudi Arabia. The other programs continued to proceed in an active way. The first building of the program Horizon, the Forbin frigate, was launched. The construction of the fourth SNLE of new generation, the Terrible one, continued, its delivery and its startup being always planned for 2010. The first building of projection and command, the Mistral, were delivered on February 27, 2006, certainly late and with reserves, but those are gradually raised - they related primarily to the integration of the system of combat - and confidence is of setting as for its complete entry in operational condition. The second building of this type, the Thunder, still under test in Brest, should join Toulon this summer. The availability of the ships, still defective three years ago and priority of the Minister for defense, is in significant improvement since it passed from 58 to 71 %. For the nuclear submarines of attack, SNA, in Toulon, the record of 1997 was beaten of more than one hundred days, in spite of the ageing of the park. It is the fruit of the motivation of the personnel of DCN, the change of statute having made it possible to install tools to recognize their implication in the respect of the objectives of the company, in particular of the premiums of participation in the result, under the terms of a decree published on December 27, 2005. DCN is thus on the good way, even if progress remains to be achieved, in particular in the control of the deadlines.
In the field of the economic results, 2005, like 2004, were also a positive year: the sales turnover increased by 8,6 %, the turnover of 18,6 % and the net income of 30 % - with certainly nearly 100 million euros of exceptional result.
Last year was remembered by an extremely important decision of the Government and companies Thales and DCN, was taken on December 15, tending to structure the naval sector. Will be gathered around DCN the whole of the French naval sector of defense except equipment, i.e. the Armaris joint venture, created in 2002, which carries all the international naval activity, as well as the subsidiary companies of the latter and Thales Naval France except equipment, is a transfer of approximately 350 people. In parallel, the Government will possibly open the capital of DCN to height of 25 % then of 35 % at the end of two years.
Mr. Jean-Marie Poimbœuf estimated that 2006 will be one year hinge for the activity of DCN, with two crucial contracts. Firstly, with regard to SNA of the type Barracuda, a joint offer with Technicatome, the third, on April 28 for the signing of one contract was given to the end of the summer or the autumn. It acts of a project structuring over ten even fifteen years for the underwater activity of DCN, more particularly for the sites of Cherbourg and Indret; if it came to be deferred or shifted, that would involve industrial and social decisions delicate. Secondly, with regard to the PA2, an integrated team DCN-Thales currently works in Bristol, animated by two objectives: to confirm the general study of conclusive last year to compatibility enter the specific needs for the French navy and the British project, and to detail the modifications of design to be designed to meet the national needs; to be based on the experience gained with Charles-of-Gaulle to convince the British teams of the advisability of reducing the cost of the building, in particular by using more civil technical solutions for the design as for construction.
It announced that all the actions of progress engaged since the change of statute will be continued. After the plan "Ahead 2005", which federated the personnel of the company of 2003 at at the end of 2005, in particular on the subjects of the purchases, the industrial processes and the information systems, new a three years plan, "Challenge 2008", was committed beginning 2006 with the objective to reduce the costs of 500 million euros: more half on the level of the die of purchase in the broad sense, the supply chain, the remainder through the modernization of the industrial process.
The bringing together between DCN and Thales is halfway, due diligence coming to a end: DCN buys a part of the activity of Thales in the naval field and Thales buys 25 % of DCN. Parallel to the building site of organization spreads an intercultural building site; to gain this human project, it is indeed advisable to marry two cultures - those of deprived and the administration -, to make them evolve/move, take best one and other to create a French industrialist who will be the spearhead of the European bringing together.
The project "Convergence" is indeed led from the European point of view, as those which knew, these last years, sectors of aeronautics, electronics and the missiles. The reorganization of the shipbuilding industry is quite committed in Germany, with creation, last year, of TKMS, regrouping of six building sites - three in Germany, two in Sweden and one in Greece. The Izar Spaniard, born from separation, in spring 2005, between the military shipbuilding and the civil shipbuilding, should reach balance as of this year. In Great Britain, BAE thinks of the repurchase of Babcock and a part of Vosper. The bringing together between DCN and Thales proceeds of the same logic. The following stage will be a consolidation at the level European, impossible to circumvent with the rise of Europe of defense and the armament, even if it is still impossible to envisage its methods.
Mr. Jean-Marie Poimbœuf added that such a structuring depended on the existence of European projects and that, as regards buildings of surface, only France and Italy had œuvré jointly, with frigates Horizon and FREMM. It does not remain about it less than one European co-operation would be useful, in particular in the field of the conventional submarines, where new competitors - Korea, Russia, China and perhaps, tomorrow, India - are involved in the world competition beside Germany and of France. If Europe wants to continue to exist in this sector of excellence, it has of another solution to only proceed to bringings together, and they are projects with Germany and/or Spain which would make more the smell.
President Guy Teissier asked whether the prices of the six SNA of the Barracuda type could be revised without the results of DCN being some faded and if Russian competition were not likely to disturb the play.
Mr. Jean-Marie Poimbœuf specified that the first offer relating to the Barracuda project, given on June 25, 2005, did not enter the budgetary diagram. At the end of technical discussions held during the summer and the autumn with the general delegation for the armament, the national navy, Commissariat à l' Énergie Atomique, the ECA and Technicatome, a second offer, subjected in November 2005, was perceived like a clear improvement, allowing to continue the technical discussions and to lead to a third offer, presented on April 28, 2006. The industrialists adapted their offer to the budgetary constraint while following three axes: adjustment of the technical contents; simplification of the industrial engineering; reduction of the risks taken by the industrialists so that they are not exposed to risks in a ill-considered way. The contract will run until 2030.
The export of such buildings is excluded. Only the United States and Great Britain are concerned. And still, British industry, for lack of continuity, lost competence; its Astute project took four years of delay and depends on the Americans. In comparison with the American and British prices, the French offer is largely competitive and its product is much smaller. After the range of the Rubies, which made 2 500 tons, the Barracuda reach 4 800 tons, to achieve the goals in nuclear term of safety and acoustic discretion, against 7 000 to 8 000 tons for the competitor buildings.
Referring to advertisements published in the press, president Guy Teissier wondered about the proposal made by DCN dismantle Clemenceau whereas France had initially chosen to make precisely carry out this work in India for reasons of cost.
Mr. Jean-Marie Poimbœuf required prudence on this file, the journalists venturing sometimes beyond his thought and even of his words. Such an operation, foreign with Cœur of activity of DCN, is complex and requires specific competences that does not have the company, in particular depollution recycling. But DCN is ready, if necessary, in a form remaining to determine, place its knowledge of the military ships and Clemenceau at the disposal of those which will take the responsability for dismantling: it does not have vocation to be the Master of œuvrefor it but is laid out to accompany it. To evaluate the means of developing the operation economically, it will be necessary however to wait to know what the ministry for defense will require of the industrialists.
Mr. Philippe Vitel congratulated DCN for his decisive role in the design, obtaining and the animation of the pole of competitiveness sea with world dimension gathering the areas Provence-Alp-Coast of Azure and Brittany, which preceded the Entente Cordiale and fraternal with Thales, and it paid homage to Bernard Planchais for his action in Toulon. Then it asked precise information on manpower and the recruitings in the company, whereas the communications of the direction and the trade unions are contradictory.
Mr. Jean-Marie Poimbœuf stressed that the activity was constant in all establishments DCN and that, if the Barracuda project were actually signed during 2006, visibility in the medium and long term would be good. The two sides of industry obviously always wish that manpower increase. From the quantitative point of view, manpower, in fifteen years, fell in a drastic way - of 28 000 at the beginning of the years 1990 to 12 000 in 2006 - but they will be stabilized if the current level of activity is maintained. The sales turnover of DCN
- which rises to 2,8 billion euros - indeed, is brought back to the number of employees, comparable with that of best undertaken European: for the armed ships, very rich in equipment, it is 300 000 euros against 240 000 at TKMS; for the services, which incorporate much more hand-ofœuvre, the ratio gives 130 000 euros against 100 000 at Vosper, which constitutes the reference. From the qualitative point of view, DCN improved architecture of employment in order to adapt competences to the needs: since the change of statute, more than 5 000 changes in staff were operated - 3 000 exits for 2 500 entries -, which is considerable, and the rate of framing grew of 20 % with 26 or 27 %. the die purchase, for example, employed more than 500 people including 80 frameworks and 250 executive staff; today, its manpower fell to 380 people including 140 frameworks and less than 100 executive staff; the evolution is similar in the die financial management. It is comprehensible that that causes concern at the two sides of industry but largest from the movements passed and DCN will continue to replace the departures and will maintain manpower about at the current level.
Mr. Gilbert Meyer estimated that the availability ratio of the ships depended not only on the legal status on the personnel but also on the degree on fungibility of the spare parts provided by the various people receiving benefits, like had underlined it his ratio of 2002. Is the bringing together with Thales likely to improve the availability ratio, being understood that it relates to only maintenance, other than the equipment?
Then it is enquis on behalf of the foreign orders in the 2 billion additional euros recorded on the notebook of DCN in 2005.
Mr. Jean-Marie Poimbœuf explained that the service of support of the fleet had radically made evolve/move the philosophy of the contracts, with an important effect on fungibility: the national navy signed from contracts of short duration, enjoignant with the industrialists to proceed to precise operations of maintenance, with contracts from three to five years, more total, giving them for task to guarantee a level of availability of the ships. The industrialists have thus from now on the responsibility to organize themselves and engage of the purchases as of the signature of the contracts, so as to carry out the exchanges necessary, with a flexibility as regards purchase which did not exist when DCN was subjected to the Code des Marches Publics. But the reflexion with the service of support of the fleet and the large equipment suppliers must still be thorough. The bringing together with Thales excluding the equipment, it would be appropriate to decline the inclusive contracts of service of availability with the co-operators equipment suppliers - Thales, Sagem, EADS-MBDA, etc. Way remains to be traversed to cross the responsibility for the main industrialist ofœuvre of the ship and the responsibility for the equipment suppliers on their installations, common to several ships: this organization remains perfectible.
It added that the orders were made up to 30 % approximately of future exports.
Mr. Jean-Claude Viollet insisted on the importance of the sums concerned in the project "Convergence", a puncture on the benefit of DCN intended for reinvestments on great programs being even evoked. It remains to negotiate a cooperation agreement. Isn't the maintenance of the foreign naval subsidiary companies of Thales likely to enter in competition with the new unit?
Where is alliance between BAE, Fincantieri, Navantia, Shipbuilding Limited and DCN on the equipment?
Which is the thrust of the signature of the Barracuda contract, taking into account the workload and of the prospects opened by this new order?
Mr. Jean-Marie Poimbœuf indicated that work relating to the valorization of the companies was in hand but that the teams reasoned on the basis of announced element on December 15: a balance from 100 to 150 million euros will compensate for the difference between the sums paid in cash by DCN with Thales and Thales in the State. The treasury of DCN is completely satisfactory, which led the State to carry the dividends to 450 million euros, and the project "Convergence" does not have nothing to do there. The State must still pour a part of the capital - twice 150 million euros, in 2006 and 2007 - but the treasury of DCN remains and will remain healthy, even after the purchase of the naval activity of Thales. It is still necessary to sign an agreement of shareholders between the State and Thales as well as an industrial and commercial agreement between DCN and Thales, pursuing three goals. Firstly, it is a question of creating synergies so that the two industrialists optimize their efforts of investment in the search and the development for new technologies while avoiding paying twice and while benefitting from competences of the other. Secondly, each one must remain on its international strategic positioning: Master ofœuvre of the ships armed for DCN, systémier equipment supplier for Thales. Thirdly, it is important to hold account of the existence of foreign subsidiary companies of Thales in the naval field - the project "Convergence" fitting moreover in a step of integration of these structures - in order to regulate the conflicts of interest suitably: a mechanism is designed in particular to prepare the offers in most total independence when Thales is concerned taking into account its international positioning, which will not change basically compared to today because it is already able at Armaris to be in competition with subsidiary companies of Thales.
International alliance in gestation is a purely industrial agreement of coordination between companies: it is a question of weighing on the European and world equipment suppliers to profit from the best possible prices.
If the Barracuda contract had been suddenly shifted after 2006, the industrial and social repercussions would be heavy, in Cherbourg as in Indret. A notification during 2006 will cause already a light underactivity in these two establishments but this one will be compensated by a solidarity between sites on the other projects, in particular that of the FREMM, with a system of subcontractings. The fixing of the methods of distribution in their details is not urgent since the construction of the second frigate must start in the current of the second half of 2008 - the facts of the case depend moreover contents on the Barracuda programs and PA2.
Mr. Charles Cova said to appreciate the rectification of DCN, which releases from the benefit whereas, at the time of the change of statute, aucuns predicted that it would follow the way of GIAT Industries.
Within won't the framework of the reorganization of the European shipbuilding industry and taking into account the workload of DCN, be necessary to buy a European shipyard to increase the competitiveness of the French naval pole, in particular for the construction of corvettes of 1 000 and 1 200 tons and from the point of view of the Gowind corvettes?
Is it exact that the British trail the feet to provide the plans concerning the PA2 in time and hour and that a delay of two months was already recorded? Don't they await the result of the future French elections to accelerate their work?
Mr. Jerome Rivière complimented in his turn DCN for his satisfying assessment and his results, which exceed the hopes: the decisions of the Government, supported by the Parliament, were the maid. It also greeted its general president-director, symbol of a successful change of statute.
In a context of risk of attrition or in any case of stagnation of the appropriations of defense, it could be considered, even if it acts of an iconoclast proposal, that France and Great Britain together have only three aircraft carriers and not four. Perhaps in the same way, to believe certain British experts of them, the English do not need to launch out in the production of SNLE whereas dissuasion and the presence with the sea of French submarines could be enough. Aren't France and Great Britain being the two European leaders as regards appropriations of defense, including in the naval field, of great projects possible between the two countries rather than with Germany, Italy or Spain or in any case as much as with these three States?
Mr. Jean-Marie Poimbœuf then brought the following precise details:
- the purchase of a building site to produce buildings with weak tonnage is not in the intentions of DCN, which prefers to benefit from the capacities available in Europe, to organize competition and to play with the contract appropriatenesses, for example in Bulgaria or Croatia, to support its projects with export, which does not prevent from considering, in the long term, of the participations crossed between Navantia, TKMS and DCN.
- acting of the PA2, there was delay at the beginning of the project but, since the signature of the "memorandum of understanding", the French integrated team does not meet restrictions: the contacts are good and the books are open for him.
- It is well Great Britain and France which have the naval activities most intense of Europe. Logic should thus indeed result in organizing industrial co-operations with the English but they run up against two obstacles: British industry is very turned towards the deck chair for SNA, the SNLE, the systems and the equipment; DCN has still way to traverse, Great Britain and with less title Germany considering it still too official to consider an integrated industrial bringing together. The project "Convergence" will help DCN but, to hope for such an exit, it will be necessary to persevere.
Mr. Jean-Marie Poimbœuf finally thanked the deputies for their encouragements, which must be addressed to the whole of the personnel, in the beginning for the results for DCN.
--____--
© National Parliament
ttp://babelfish.altavista.digital.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=fr_en&url=%2F%2Fwww.assemblee-natio...506033.asp
Translation www.assemblee-nationale.f...506033.asp
Logo of the site of the French National Assembly
Reports of the commission of national defense and the armed forces Businesses trangres
COMMISSION of NATIONAL DEFENSE and the ARMED FORCES
Report N° 33
(Application of article 46 of the Payment)
Wednesday May 3, 2006
(10 hours Meeting)
Presidency of Mr. Guy Teissier, president
Hearing of Mr. Jean-Marie Poimbœuf, general president-director of DCN.
The commission of national defense and the armed forces heard Mr. Jean-Marie Poimbœuf, president-director general of DCN.
President Guy Teissier observed that the company, in 2005, had obtained very satisfactory results, underlining the level record of the order takings thanks in particular to the European frigates multimissions - FREMM -, to the Scorpene submarines and the conditional phase of the SNLE - nuclear submarine launcher of machines - the Terrible one.
It wished to obtain precise details on the final results of 2005 and their distribution, on the operational performances of the company, in constant improvement, on the progress report of the programs in co-operation, particularly of the second aircraft carrier, the PA2, on the prospects as regards exports, the final stages of the agreement between DCN and Thales Naval France, which made run much ink, like on the difficulties encountered concerning the development of the system of combat of the Mistral.
Mr. Jean-Marie Poimbœuf recalled that DCN, it there has less than three years, still belonged to the administration of the ministry for defense, before being transformed, the 1erJune 2003, in national company of private law. The evolution was initiated at the beginning of the years 2000 and the first stage carried out in 2003, with two objectives: to improve the effectiveness, the reactivity, the productivity of the company; he to give the capacity to take part in the necessary structuring of the naval sector of defense French and European.
He confirmed that 2005 had been one record year in terms of order takings: more than 4 billion euros for 2,8 billion sales turnover, with three great contracts. Firstly, the contract on the FREMM, signed in November 2005, which comprises a firm phase of eight buildings, has been the best obtained by DCN for fifty years: it will structure during the ten next years its presence on the segment of the armed ships, which represents a little more than 60 % of its activity. Secondly, the contract with the export of six Scorpene towards India, signed and come into effect at the end of 2005, is the third recorded in five years, which refers of this submarine world. Thirdly, in the field of the maintenance in operational condition, i.e. services, which represents 30 % of the activity of DCN, the majority of the contracts signed to the profit of the national marine came to a end in 2005 and it was a question of renewing them: the company gained 70 % of those which were opened with competition - better than its objective of 50 % -, without counting the contracts withdrawn from the competition taking into account their specificity, relating to the maintenance of the nuclear buildings primarily. Thus DCN saw the total of its order book to place from 6 billion to more than 8 billion euros between beginning and the end of 2005.
Acting of the activity, 2005 were also an important year since DCN delivered in December its first Scorpene to the Chilean navy as well as the first frigate on a contract of six to the Singaporean navy and the last to Saudi Arabia. The other programs continued to proceed in an active way. The first building of the program Horizon, the Forbin frigate, was launched. The construction of the fourth SNLE of new generation, the Terrible one, continued, its delivery and its startup being always planned for 2010. The first building of projection and command, the Mistral, were delivered on February 27, 2006, certainly late and with reserves, but those are gradually raised - they related primarily to the integration of the system of combat - and confidence is of setting as for its complete entry in operational condition. The second building of this type, the Thunder, still under test in Brest, should join Toulon this summer. The availability of the ships, still defective three years ago and priority of the Minister for defense, is in significant improvement since it passed from 58 to 71 %. For the nuclear submarines of attack, SNA, in Toulon, the record of 1997 was beaten of more than one hundred days, in spite of the ageing of the park. It is the fruit of the motivation of the personnel of DCN, the change of statute having made it possible to install tools to recognize their implication in the respect of the objectives of the company, in particular of the premiums of participation in the result, under the terms of a decree published on December 27, 2005. DCN is thus on the good way, even if progress remains to be achieved, in particular in the control of the deadlines.
In the field of the economic results, 2005, like 2004, were also a positive year: the sales turnover increased by 8,6 %, the turnover of 18,6 % and the net income of 30 % - with certainly nearly 100 million euros of exceptional result.
Last year was remembered by an extremely important decision of the Government and companies Thales and DCN, was taken on December 15, tending to structure the naval sector. Will be gathered around DCN the whole of the French naval sector of defense except equipment, i.e. the Armaris joint venture, created in 2002, which carries all the international naval activity, as well as the subsidiary companies of the latter and Thales Naval France except equipment, is a transfer of approximately 350 people. In parallel, the Government will possibly open the capital of DCN to height of 25 % then of 35 % at the end of two years.
Mr. Jean-Marie Poimbœuf estimated that 2006 will be one year hinge for the activity of DCN, with two crucial contracts. Firstly, with regard to SNA of the type Barracuda, a joint offer with Technicatome, the third, on April 28 for the signing of one contract was given to the end of the summer or the autumn. It acts of a project structuring over ten even fifteen years for the underwater activity of DCN, more particularly for the sites of Cherbourg and Indret; if it came to be deferred or shifted, that would involve industrial and social decisions delicate. Secondly, with regard to the PA2, an integrated team DCN-Thales currently works in Bristol, animated by two objectives: to confirm the general study of conclusive last year to compatibility enter the specific needs for the French navy and the British project, and to detail the modifications of design to be designed to meet the national needs; to be based on the experience gained with Charles-of-Gaulle to convince the British teams of the advisability of reducing the cost of the building, in particular by using more civil technical solutions for the design as for construction.
It announced that all the actions of progress engaged since the change of statute will be continued. After the plan "Ahead 2005", which federated the personnel of the company of 2003 at at the end of 2005, in particular on the subjects of the purchases, the industrial processes and the information systems, new a three years plan, "Challenge 2008", was committed beginning 2006 with the objective to reduce the costs of 500 million euros: more half on the level of the die of purchase in the broad sense, the supply chain, the remainder through the modernization of the industrial process.
The bringing together between DCN and Thales is halfway, due diligence coming to a end: DCN buys a part of the activity of Thales in the naval field and Thales buys 25 % of DCN. Parallel to the building site of organization spreads an intercultural building site; to gain this human project, it is indeed advisable to marry two cultures - those of deprived and the administration -, to make them evolve/move, take best one and other to create a French industrialist who will be the spearhead of the European bringing together.
The project "Convergence" is indeed led from the European point of view, as those which knew, these last years, sectors of aeronautics, electronics and the missiles. The reorganization of the shipbuilding industry is quite committed in Germany, with creation, last year, of TKMS, regrouping of six building sites - three in Germany, two in Sweden and one in Greece. The Izar Spaniard, born from separation, in spring 2005, between the military shipbuilding and the civil shipbuilding, should reach balance as of this year. In Great Britain, BAE thinks of the repurchase of Babcock and a part of Vosper. The bringing together between DCN and Thales proceeds of the same logic. The following stage will be a consolidation at the level European, impossible to circumvent with the rise of Europe of defense and the armament, even if it is still impossible to envisage its methods.
Mr. Jean-Marie Poimbœuf added that such a structuring depended on the existence of European projects and that, as regards buildings of surface, only France and Italy had œuvré jointly, with frigates Horizon and FREMM. It does not remain about it less than one European co-operation would be useful, in particular in the field of the conventional submarines, where new competitors - Korea, Russia, China and perhaps, tomorrow, India - are involved in the world competition beside Germany and of France. If Europe wants to continue to exist in this sector of excellence, it has of another solution to only proceed to bringings together, and they are projects with Germany and/or Spain which would make more the smell.
President Guy Teissier asked whether the prices of the six SNA of the Barracuda type could be revised without the results of DCN being some faded and if Russian competition were not likely to disturb the play.
Mr. Jean-Marie Poimbœuf specified that the first offer relating to the Barracuda project, given on June 25, 2005, did not enter the budgetary diagram. At the end of technical discussions held during the summer and the autumn with the general delegation for the armament, the national navy, Commissariat à l' Énergie Atomique, the ECA and Technicatome, a second offer, subjected in November 2005, was perceived like a clear improvement, allowing to continue the technical discussions and to lead to a third offer, presented on April 28, 2006. The industrialists adapted their offer to the budgetary constraint while following three axes: adjustment of the technical contents; simplification of the industrial engineering; reduction of the risks taken by the industrialists so that they are not exposed to risks in a ill-considered way. The contract will run until 2030.
The export of such buildings is excluded. Only the United States and Great Britain are concerned. And still, British industry, for lack of continuity, lost competence; its Astute project took four years of delay and depends on the Americans. In comparison with the American and British prices, the French offer is largely competitive and its product is much smaller. After the range of the Rubies, which made 2 500 tons, the Barracuda reach 4 800 tons, to achieve the goals in nuclear term of safety and acoustic discretion, against 7 000 to 8 000 tons for the competitor buildings.
Referring to advertisements published in the press, president Guy Teissier wondered about the proposal made by DCN dismantle Clemenceau whereas France had initially chosen to make precisely carry out this work in India for reasons of cost.
Mr. Jean-Marie Poimbœuf required prudence on this file, the journalists venturing sometimes beyond his thought and even of his words. Such an operation, foreign with Cœur of activity of DCN, is complex and requires specific competences that does not have the company, in particular depollution recycling. But DCN is ready, if necessary, in a form remaining to determine, place its knowledge of the military ships and Clemenceau at the disposal of those which will take the responsability for dismantling: it does not have vocation to be the Master of œuvrefor it but is laid out to accompany it. To evaluate the means of developing the operation economically, it will be necessary however to wait to know what the ministry for defense will require of the industrialists.
Mr. Philippe Vitel congratulated DCN for his decisive role in the design, obtaining and the animation of the pole of competitiveness sea with world dimension gathering the areas Provence-Alp-Coast of Azure and Brittany, which preceded the Entente Cordiale and fraternal with Thales, and it paid homage to Bernard Planchais for his action in Toulon. Then it asked precise information on manpower and the recruitings in the company, whereas the communications of the direction and the trade unions are contradictory.
Mr. Jean-Marie Poimbœuf stressed that the activity was constant in all establishments DCN and that, if the Barracuda project were actually signed during 2006, visibility in the medium and long term would be good. The two sides of industry obviously always wish that manpower increase. From the quantitative point of view, manpower, in fifteen years, fell in a drastic way - of 28 000 at the beginning of the years 1990 to 12 000 in 2006 - but they will be stabilized if the current level of activity is maintained. The sales turnover of DCN
- which rises to 2,8 billion euros - indeed, is brought back to the number of employees, comparable with that of best undertaken European: for the armed ships, very rich in equipment, it is 300 000 euros against 240 000 at TKMS; for the services, which incorporate much more hand-ofœuvre, the ratio gives 130 000 euros against 100 000 at Vosper, which constitutes the reference. From the qualitative point of view, DCN improved architecture of employment in order to adapt competences to the needs: since the change of statute, more than 5 000 changes in staff were operated - 3 000 exits for 2 500 entries -, which is considerable, and the rate of framing grew of 20 % with 26 or 27 %. the die purchase, for example, employed more than 500 people including 80 frameworks and 250 executive staff; today, its manpower fell to 380 people including 140 frameworks and less than 100 executive staff; the evolution is similar in the die financial management. It is comprehensible that that causes concern at the two sides of industry but largest from the movements passed and DCN will continue to replace the departures and will maintain manpower about at the current level.
Mr. Gilbert Meyer estimated that the availability ratio of the ships depended not only on the legal status on the personnel but also on the degree on fungibility of the spare parts provided by the various people receiving benefits, like had underlined it his ratio of 2002. Is the bringing together with Thales likely to improve the availability ratio, being understood that it relates to only maintenance, other than the equipment?
Then it is enquis on behalf of the foreign orders in the 2 billion additional euros recorded on the notebook of DCN in 2005.
Mr. Jean-Marie Poimbœuf explained that the service of support of the fleet had radically made evolve/move the philosophy of the contracts, with an important effect on fungibility: the national navy signed from contracts of short duration, enjoignant with the industrialists to proceed to precise operations of maintenance, with contracts from three to five years, more total, giving them for task to guarantee a level of availability of the ships. The industrialists have thus from now on the responsibility to organize themselves and engage of the purchases as of the signature of the contracts, so as to carry out the exchanges necessary, with a flexibility as regards purchase which did not exist when DCN was subjected to the Code des Marches Publics. But the reflexion with the service of support of the fleet and the large equipment suppliers must still be thorough. The bringing together with Thales excluding the equipment, it would be appropriate to decline the inclusive contracts of service of availability with the co-operators equipment suppliers - Thales, Sagem, EADS-MBDA, etc. Way remains to be traversed to cross the responsibility for the main industrialist ofœuvre of the ship and the responsibility for the equipment suppliers on their installations, common to several ships: this organization remains perfectible.
It added that the orders were made up to 30 % approximately of future exports.
Mr. Jean-Claude Viollet insisted on the importance of the sums concerned in the project "Convergence", a puncture on the benefit of DCN intended for reinvestments on great programs being even evoked. It remains to negotiate a cooperation agreement. Isn't the maintenance of the foreign naval subsidiary companies of Thales likely to enter in competition with the new unit?
Where is alliance between BAE, Fincantieri, Navantia, Shipbuilding Limited and DCN on the equipment?
Which is the thrust of the signature of the Barracuda contract, taking into account the workload and of the prospects opened by this new order?
Mr. Jean-Marie Poimbœuf indicated that work relating to the valorization of the companies was in hand but that the teams reasoned on the basis of announced element on December 15: a balance from 100 to 150 million euros will compensate for the difference between the sums paid in cash by DCN with Thales and Thales in the State. The treasury of DCN is completely satisfactory, which led the State to carry the dividends to 450 million euros, and the project "Convergence" does not have nothing to do there. The State must still pour a part of the capital - twice 150 million euros, in 2006 and 2007 - but the treasury of DCN remains and will remain healthy, even after the purchase of the naval activity of Thales. It is still necessary to sign an agreement of shareholders between the State and Thales as well as an industrial and commercial agreement between DCN and Thales, pursuing three goals. Firstly, it is a question of creating synergies so that the two industrialists optimize their efforts of investment in the search and the development for new technologies while avoiding paying twice and while benefitting from competences of the other. Secondly, each one must remain on its international strategic positioning: Master ofœuvre of the ships armed for DCN, systémier equipment supplier for Thales. Thirdly, it is important to hold account of the existence of foreign subsidiary companies of Thales in the naval field - the project "Convergence" fitting moreover in a step of integration of these structures - in order to regulate the conflicts of interest suitably: a mechanism is designed in particular to prepare the offers in most total independence when Thales is concerned taking into account its international positioning, which will not change basically compared to today because it is already able at Armaris to be in competition with subsidiary companies of Thales.
International alliance in gestation is a purely industrial agreement of coordination between companies: it is a question of weighing on the European and world equipment suppliers to profit from the best possible prices.
If the Barracuda contract had been suddenly shifted after 2006, the industrial and social repercussions would be heavy, in Cherbourg as in Indret. A notification during 2006 will cause already a light underactivity in these two establishments but this one will be compensated by a solidarity between sites on the other projects, in particular that of the FREMM, with a system of subcontractings. The fixing of the methods of distribution in their details is not urgent since the construction of the second frigate must start in the current of the second half of 2008 - the facts of the case depend moreover contents on the Barracuda programs and PA2.
Mr. Charles Cova said to appreciate the rectification of DCN, which releases from the benefit whereas, at the time of the change of statute, aucuns predicted that it would follow the way of GIAT Industries.
Within won't the framework of the reorganization of the European shipbuilding industry and taking into account the workload of DCN, be necessary to buy a European shipyard to increase the competitiveness of the French naval pole, in particular for the construction of corvettes of 1 000 and 1 200 tons and from the point of view of the Gowind corvettes?
Is it exact that the British trail the feet to provide the plans concerning the PA2 in time and hour and that a delay of two months was already recorded? Don't they await the result of the future French elections to accelerate their work?
Mr. Jerome Rivière complimented in his turn DCN for his satisfying assessment and his results, which exceed the hopes: the decisions of the Government, supported by the Parliament, were the maid. It also greeted its general president-director, symbol of a successful change of statute.
In a context of risk of attrition or in any case of stagnation of the appropriations of defense, it could be considered, even if it acts of an iconoclast proposal, that France and Great Britain together have only three aircraft carriers and not four. Perhaps in the same way, to believe certain British experts of them, the English do not need to launch out in the production of SNLE whereas dissuasion and the presence with the sea of French submarines could be enough. Aren't France and Great Britain being the two European leaders as regards appropriations of defense, including in the naval field, of great projects possible between the two countries rather than with Germany, Italy or Spain or in any case as much as with these three States?
Mr. Jean-Marie Poimbœuf then brought the following precise details:
- the purchase of a building site to produce buildings with weak tonnage is not in the intentions of DCN, which prefers to benefit from the capacities available in Europe, to organize competition and to play with the contract appropriatenesses, for example in Bulgaria or Croatia, to support its projects with export, which does not prevent from considering, in the long term, of the participations crossed between Navantia, TKMS and DCN.
- acting of the PA2, there was delay at the beginning of the project but, since the signature of the "memorandum of understanding", the French integrated team does not meet restrictions: the contacts are good and the books are open for him.
- It is well Great Britain and France which have the naval activities most intense of Europe. Logic should thus indeed result in organizing industrial co-operations with the English but they run up against two obstacles: British industry is very turned towards the deck chair for SNA, the SNLE, the systems and the equipment; DCN has still way to traverse, Great Britain and with less title Germany considering it still too official to consider an integrated industrial bringing together. The project "Convergence" will help DCN but, to hope for such an exit, it will be necessary to persevere.
Mr. Jean-Marie Poimbœuf finally thanked the deputies for their encouragements, which must be addressed to the whole of the personnel, in the beginning for the results for DCN.
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© National Parliament
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Thread Starter
Do they know something we don't? Please tell me the above comments do not reflect official policy.
LowObservable
I have seen concepts with a Sea King ASaC radar hanging off the rear ramp.
How would that work? Open ramp, deploy bag............
LowObservable
I have seen concepts with a Sea King ASaC radar hanging off the rear ramp.
How would that work? Open ramp, deploy bag............
Given the quality of the translation, I wouldn't put too much store by it, it appears to be an interpretation of possible UK policy options from the perspective of Pierre. Note that it includes the idea that BigAndExpensiveSystems buy out VT, to create VeryBigAndExpensiveShips which (for the moment at least) is on the back-burner. Having said that, if Brown / Browne are reading this it might give them some ideas........so lets keep schtum.
As for Bag / V22, it wouldn't work for the reasons discussed previously. Bag would be outside the aircraft (on the ramp slope).
As for Bag / V22, it wouldn't work for the reasons discussed previously. Bag would be outside the aircraft (on the ramp slope).
Thread Starter
In today's (Thursday) Daily Mail, there was a letter from someone offering the view that the carriers need to be nuclear powered. This was ruled out many moons ago, partly for political reasons, also other issues.
However, have they decided what sort of propulsion to use? Will it be....
Diesel generators powering electric motors (cf Albion class LPD)?
Gas Turbines (WR21?)
A mix of diesel generators powering electric motors (for normal cruising and situations where quietness is needed) and gas turbines for high speed (not completely unlike the T23 propulsion system)?
CVF will use a lot of the same technology as other naval projects (T45, LPD(R), MARS (if it gets ordered) and even Astute). As such both the complexity and the risks involved will be considerably mitigated - even the technique of building parts of ships at different yards and then integrating them is being done with the T45.
However, have they decided what sort of propulsion to use? Will it be....
Diesel generators powering electric motors (cf Albion class LPD)?
Gas Turbines (WR21?)
A mix of diesel generators powering electric motors (for normal cruising and situations where quietness is needed) and gas turbines for high speed (not completely unlike the T23 propulsion system)?
CVF will use a lot of the same technology as other naval projects (T45, LPD(R), MARS (if it gets ordered) and even Astute). As such both the complexity and the risks involved will be considerably mitigated - even the technique of building parts of ships at different yards and then integrating them is being done with the T45.
Thread Starter
Some good news regarding technology transfer and the F35, as reported by DefenseNews.
On a slight tangent:
Bush and Blair also spoke in the statement of a need to enhance U.S.-British military cooperation.
Hmmm, perhaps they could fit CEC to the Type 23 Frigates as intended?
Now that this issue is resolved, perhaps the Goverment might like to think about getting the building of these mighty ships started?
On a slight tangent:
Bush and Blair also spoke in the statement of a need to enhance U.S.-British military cooperation.
Hmmm, perhaps they could fit CEC to the Type 23 Frigates as intended?
Now that this issue is resolved, perhaps the Goverment might like to think about getting the building of these mighty ships started?
The propulsion fit for the ship is derived from the Type 45. Rono is correct it will be two Trent MT30s (upgradable to MT40) and two 8-10MW diesel generators for low speed / cruise powering four Alstom electric motors on two shafts.
The reason CVF is so difficult is that the original cost estimates were done for a MoD design of 40000 tonnes in 1997 and NEVER updated as the ship design evolved. When they did, funny old thing the ship got a lot bigger (operational parking being a major design driver). As MoD (and industry) cost on weight - lo and behold the ship got more expensive than the EP provision which has led to the last three years faffing about trying to find ways of making it fit the EP line (and therefore not upset Gordon). What is possible if people make decisions quickly is illustrated by the fact that Fincantieri in Venice have just laid the keel of a Queen Mary sized cruise ship (90000 gross te). She will be delivered in December 2007 and enter service that month.
The reason CVF is so difficult is that the original cost estimates were done for a MoD design of 40000 tonnes in 1997 and NEVER updated as the ship design evolved. When they did, funny old thing the ship got a lot bigger (operational parking being a major design driver). As MoD (and industry) cost on weight - lo and behold the ship got more expensive than the EP provision which has led to the last three years faffing about trying to find ways of making it fit the EP line (and therefore not upset Gordon). What is possible if people make decisions quickly is illustrated by the fact that Fincantieri in Venice have just laid the keel of a Queen Mary sized cruise ship (90000 gross te). She will be delivered in December 2007 and enter service that month.
Suspicion breeds confidence
That's the new Queen Victoria for Cunard. They have built 6 other ships to the same basic general arrangement, so I guess they must be good at it by now. I suspect the Cunarder will operate fewer strike aircraft making it less useful. Nice in the hot weather on the med in July though.
All this special design worry, the bickering over which powerplant and such, cats vice no cats, traps vice no traps...and the cost keeps growing with each delay.
I again offer the Nimitz class....but look at it from a different perspective. No matter what aircraft types, helicopters, whatever is decided upon will work. With all the unused space on the flight deck and below deck...imagine the overflow capability it would have.
Need to go to Sierra Leone and evacuate civilains, diplomats, insert peace keepers and provide CAP for the troops ashore. There you have it...all in one ship. Send along one Amphib vessel with a well deck and LCM's or LCU's to haul the armored vehicles ashore and you have it made. Fetch back the evacuees and open up the unused mess decks, sick bays, berthing spaces and good to go.
Just like the cruise ships really....use a proven design....and remember to buy American!
I again offer the Nimitz class....but look at it from a different perspective. No matter what aircraft types, helicopters, whatever is decided upon will work. With all the unused space on the flight deck and below deck...imagine the overflow capability it would have.
Need to go to Sierra Leone and evacuate civilains, diplomats, insert peace keepers and provide CAP for the troops ashore. There you have it...all in one ship. Send along one Amphib vessel with a well deck and LCM's or LCU's to haul the armored vehicles ashore and you have it made. Fetch back the evacuees and open up the unused mess decks, sick bays, berthing spaces and good to go.
Just like the cruise ships really....use a proven design....and remember to buy American!
Navaleye - you're quite right and the magazine capacity is probably a bit low as well. The point is that the quantities of material, work content etc are comparable to CVF and yet can be done by one yard in two years......
SASless - if they fit the ship for Cats and traps it will be enough. Nimitz is a tired design (CVN 21 is the planned(!) way forward) and we could never retain enough people to man a Nimitz in the accommodation standards they use. If MoD would just order the bl00dy thing, all will be well eventually - although there are a number of things that need fixing in the design in slower time.
SASless - if they fit the ship for Cats and traps it will be enough. Nimitz is a tired design (CVN 21 is the planned(!) way forward) and we could never retain enough people to man a Nimitz in the accommodation standards they use. If MoD would just order the bl00dy thing, all will be well eventually - although there are a number of things that need fixing in the design in slower time.
An upside down car ferry, possibly, although they're really not as complex as a carrier or cruise ship. Best definition I ever heard was "an airfield, on top of a city, on top of a munitions complex....."
Apparently Poseidon is even worse than the original.
Apparently Poseidon is even worse than the original.
Thread Starter
Anyhow has anyone see Poseidon yet?
Will there be a (allegedly) cheaper version made in the UK called Chevaline?
Last film set aboard a ship that I enjoyed was Flight of The Intruder.
Going back to the issue of proplusion - the arrangement (CODLAG?) sounds as if it will offer good fuel efficiency during every day operations whilst having the capacity for higher speeds when needed. Which will reduce running costs, and reduce the amount of support needed from the RFA (just as well since MARS has been delayed again and again).
SASless' post has reminded me of another thing. Why does it appear that the MOD see Carrier Strike and Amphibious stuff as seperate? I've mentioned this on the Sea Jet thread (yeah I know another link), but the two are obviously connected. Does the reduction the frigate/destroyer numbers (less platforms for Naval Gunfire Support) increase the demand for carrier based CAS? Or the reduction the AS90 numbers as a result of the 2004 cuts/Future Army Structure? What role will MASC play in the digitized littoral battlespace? What if there's still a threat offshore (surface, submarine, air)?
Will there be a (allegedly) cheaper version made in the UK called Chevaline?
Last film set aboard a ship that I enjoyed was Flight of The Intruder.
Going back to the issue of proplusion - the arrangement (CODLAG?) sounds as if it will offer good fuel efficiency during every day operations whilst having the capacity for higher speeds when needed. Which will reduce running costs, and reduce the amount of support needed from the RFA (just as well since MARS has been delayed again and again).
SASless' post has reminded me of another thing. Why does it appear that the MOD see Carrier Strike and Amphibious stuff as seperate? I've mentioned this on the Sea Jet thread (yeah I know another link), but the two are obviously connected. Does the reduction the frigate/destroyer numbers (less platforms for Naval Gunfire Support) increase the demand for carrier based CAS? Or the reduction the AS90 numbers as a result of the 2004 cuts/Future Army Structure? What role will MASC play in the digitized littoral battlespace? What if there's still a threat offshore (surface, submarine, air)?
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Depends what you mean by "higher speeds". Current design tops out at around 25 knots - rather slow by carrier standards. If fitted the cats will be a bit short of steam too.