Canberra Swansong
Thread Starter
Indeed. In recent conflicts the most important RAF assets available to Force Commanders have been PR9s, tankers, and Nimrods of all versions.
RAF fast jets - you have GOT to be joking. Tornado F3 or F-15C? Let's think about that.... GR4 or F-15E? Even the Jaguar, which gave such good service in both Gulf Wars, has yet to be replaced.
The pointy-headed AirWheels with their fast jet blinkers have failed to grasp the notion that the PR9 needed replacement. So instead the only really useful RAF aircraft are now incredibly ancient and their replacements still years away from ISD.
If it wasn't so serious it'd be a sick joke.
RAF fast jets - you have GOT to be joking. Tornado F3 or F-15C? Let's think about that.... GR4 or F-15E? Even the Jaguar, which gave such good service in both Gulf Wars, has yet to be replaced.
The pointy-headed AirWheels with their fast jet blinkers have failed to grasp the notion that the PR9 needed replacement. So instead the only really useful RAF aircraft are now incredibly ancient and their replacements still years away from ISD.
If it wasn't so serious it'd be a sick joke.
Well done WEBF, you've found a capability that we need, every time (unlike SHar, which we know is merely 'nice to have, just in case'.
It's also a capability that has been specifically requested time and time again by the USAF.
It's a capability that only a handful of U-2s can duplicate, and over mountainous Afghanistan, not without problems.
But it won't be a capability gap - it's a much more deliberate-sounding and benign 'capability holiday'.
It's also a capability that has been specifically requested time and time again by the USAF.
It's a capability that only a handful of U-2s can duplicate, and over mountainous Afghanistan, not without problems.
But it won't be a capability gap - it's a much more deliberate-sounding and benign 'capability holiday'.
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BEagle,
Nothing new in this.
In 1936 there was a competion for an aircraft to provide Battlefield Support to the Army in the case of (read "inevitable") conflict with Germany.
The best performing aircraft was the Hawker Henley; a single seat Merlin powered ground attack aircraft with 4 forward firing machine guns. This was rejected out of hand as "no aircraft could perform this role without a competent navigator and a gunner to provide rear defence". The aircraft selected was the Fairey Battle - the Henley was relegated to the role of Target Tug.
Nothing new in this.
In 1936 there was a competion for an aircraft to provide Battlefield Support to the Army in the case of (read "inevitable") conflict with Germany.
The best performing aircraft was the Hawker Henley; a single seat Merlin powered ground attack aircraft with 4 forward firing machine guns. This was rejected out of hand as "no aircraft could perform this role without a competent navigator and a gunner to provide rear defence". The aircraft selected was the Fairey Battle - the Henley was relegated to the role of Target Tug.
Well, I class the activity Bliar condoned from mid-2002 as part of GW2.
Which included the Jags at Incirlik.......
Which included the Jags at Incirlik.......
Last edited by BEagle; 11th Aug 2005 at 20:33.
Will be sad to see the old girl go. Even as a young'n I still enjoy the sight of the beige beast on the odd occasion Ernie decides to shoot an approach up here.
She has served us well (and still does of course)!
She has served us well (and still does of course)!
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Quote : "Which Jaguars took part in both Gulf Wars? It certainly wasn't the French, and it wasn't ours "
In 1991 (the real Gulf War) two Wings of French Jaguars (the 7° from Saint-Dizier AB, and the 11° from Toul AB) took part in the action, with aircraft detached from that total of six squadrons (roughly 20 aircraft ) They did attack the Koweiti airports the very first morning at low level... amongst the casualties was the famous one of the pilots's helmet crossed by a machine-gun bullet, just above the eyebrows - the blood-covered Captain managed to bring his aircraft back. After that they focused on bombing the Iraqi armored divisions which were digged in the desert North of Basrah.
By contrast the two FAF Mirage F1 Squadrons brought in the Gulf were only cleared to enter the action after the IAF Mirage F1 had disappeared from the skies....
So little passpartout before making comments - know the facts.
I was fortunate to fly an exchange tour in the RAF - for the Canberra I would have swimmed across the Channel - but instead I got my first knowledge of the wonderful Jag.... I also flew Hunter, Hawk... and the Shackleton !
And when I got my wings 25 years ago, I had Iraqi cadet pilots in my Sqn, flying AlphaJet also... they were really nice guys. I still remember one of our instructors, having said good bye to them, and learning some months after that one he especially disliked... had shot down an IIAF F14 !
In 1991 (the real Gulf War) two Wings of French Jaguars (the 7° from Saint-Dizier AB, and the 11° from Toul AB) took part in the action, with aircraft detached from that total of six squadrons (roughly 20 aircraft ) They did attack the Koweiti airports the very first morning at low level... amongst the casualties was the famous one of the pilots's helmet crossed by a machine-gun bullet, just above the eyebrows - the blood-covered Captain managed to bring his aircraft back. After that they focused on bombing the Iraqi armored divisions which were digged in the desert North of Basrah.
By contrast the two FAF Mirage F1 Squadrons brought in the Gulf were only cleared to enter the action after the IAF Mirage F1 had disappeared from the skies....
So little passpartout before making comments - know the facts.
I was fortunate to fly an exchange tour in the RAF - for the Canberra I would have swimmed across the Channel - but instead I got my first knowledge of the wonderful Jag.... I also flew Hunter, Hawk... and the Shackleton !
And when I got my wings 25 years ago, I had Iraqi cadet pilots in my Sqn, flying AlphaJet also... they were really nice guys. I still remember one of our instructors, having said good bye to them, and learning some months after that one he especially disliked... had shot down an IIAF F14 !
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Recce Guy
Read my post - the French Jaguars DID NOT TAKE PART in both Gulf Wars - I don't recall claiming that they weren't there the first time.
Concentrate!
Our Jags were back in blighty before all the last nastiness kicked off, although I concede that it would depend when you think GW2 started - for me it was when the land invasion began
Read my post - the French Jaguars DID NOT TAKE PART in both Gulf Wars - I don't recall claiming that they weren't there the first time.
Concentrate!
Our Jags were back in blighty before all the last nastiness kicked off, although I concede that it would depend when you think GW2 started - for me it was when the land invasion began
Op Resinate North, actually.....
Whatever.
Back to the thread, I note that the first PR9 prototype made its maiden flight on 8 July 1955...
The aircraft has served the RAF well - a crying shame that the cash-strapped Rental Air Farce of today will not receive a true successor when the last PR9 finally shuts down.
Whatever.
Back to the thread, I note that the first PR9 prototype made its maiden flight on 8 July 1955...
The aircraft has served the RAF well - a crying shame that the cash-strapped Rental Air Farce of today will not receive a true successor when the last PR9 finally shuts down.
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Details of the WB-57F mission on the recent Shuttle launch:
http://www.nasa.gov/returntoflight/l...chasejets.html
Video which it shot on this page:
http://www.nasa.gov/returntoflight/crew/index.html
One is left to conclude that they used it "because they could" rather than for much practical value - short of having a ringside seat should the Shuttle explode.
http://www.nasa.gov/returntoflight/l...chasejets.html
Video which it shot on this page:
http://www.nasa.gov/returntoflight/crew/index.html
One is left to conclude that they used it "because they could" rather than for much practical value - short of having a ringside seat should the Shuttle explode.
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Perhaps when she does retire they add the Canberra to the RAF Historic Flight..... Sorry I mean BBMF.....
Capability gap does need to plugged when Canberra does bow out of service. Date to be set... could be ages yet!
I have fond memories as an Air Cadet throwing up in a Canberra at Wyton
Hoist to crew winching over and out
Capability gap does need to plugged when Canberra does bow out of service. Date to be set... could be ages yet!
I have fond memories as an Air Cadet throwing up in a Canberra at Wyton
Hoist to crew winching over and out
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I know the British Aircraft industry is a shadow of the shadow of its former self, but since the Canberra PR9's such a capable jet, can they not just re-engineer some new ones, rather than buying something which will cost 4 times as much and only do the job half as well?
Though the jigs are long gone, it would surely seem certain that BAE could sell a reasonable sized batch of new-build Canberras as high altitude recce platforms, radar platforms (with operators 'migrated' to ground stations as the USAF plan to do with the E-3) and for Elint/ECM, etc. They might even carry a Storm Shadow or a recce UAV.......
Such an aircraft would be useful, especially if it was based on the NASA WB-57F airframe, with the PR9's current recce suite as a baseline.
Such an aircraft would offer massive performance advantages over any converted biz jet, and by basing it on an existing airframe development costs could perhaps be reduced to the point where unit cost might be manageable.
Such an aircraft would be useful, especially if it was based on the NASA WB-57F airframe, with the PR9's current recce suite as a baseline.
Such an aircraft would offer massive performance advantages over any converted biz jet, and by basing it on an existing airframe development costs could perhaps be reduced to the point where unit cost might be manageable.
It's not all the RAF's fault, it would seem.
The PR9 fleet is becoming increasingly difficult to maintain and the aircraft are suffering from extensive fatigue problems. I was at 39 Squadron two weeks' ago and was told that the cracks being found in the jets are so widespread and severe that they are 'not repairable'. A quick look in the hangar revealed two jets that are already beyond repair. That leaves a meagre two more still available for Ops. Perhaps it's just a matter of pragmatism. Not sure how cost-effective rebuilding these airframes would be, Jacko.
Remember too that RR is no longer willing to support the aircraft's engines and there's yet another reason to bid the old girl farewell.
Beagle,
ONW, ORN, whatever. The fact is that the Jag did not serve in both Gulf wars.
The PR9 fleet is becoming increasingly difficult to maintain and the aircraft are suffering from extensive fatigue problems. I was at 39 Squadron two weeks' ago and was told that the cracks being found in the jets are so widespread and severe that they are 'not repairable'. A quick look in the hangar revealed two jets that are already beyond repair. That leaves a meagre two more still available for Ops. Perhaps it's just a matter of pragmatism. Not sure how cost-effective rebuilding these airframes would be, Jacko.
Remember too that RR is no longer willing to support the aircraft's engines and there's yet another reason to bid the old girl farewell.
Beagle,
ONW, ORN, whatever. The fact is that the Jag did not serve in both Gulf wars.
Beyond even speed tape and black bodge tape repairs?
Suggest a little editing of your post to remove any indication of operaional force strength levels and the associated attention of 'them', old bean!
Suggest a little editing of your post to remove any indication of operaional force strength levels and the associated attention of 'them', old bean!