Last RAF kill
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Navaleye,
You're correct. The RAF F3 had committed and was about to engage when it was hauled off to enable a Saudi F-15 to engage the target for 'political reasons'. I know 2 of the F3 aircrew involved (one of whom is now on E-3Ds) and they were exceptionally frustrated as they were in a far better firing position and then the Saudi almost missed the engagement!!
Regards,
M2
You're correct. The RAF F3 had committed and was about to engage when it was hauled off to enable a Saudi F-15 to engage the target for 'political reasons'. I know 2 of the F3 aircrew involved (one of whom is now on E-3Ds) and they were exceptionally frustrated as they were in a far better firing position and then the Saudi almost missed the engagement!!
Regards,
M2
I seem to remember that the AWAC had to talk the RSAF pilot through the whole engagement including getting him to keep the missiles on the rails until he was actually within range. Anyway, back to the thread, did we not manage to get anything from the Korean war? I know we had brown jobs on the ground, did we even have any FJs in theatre? Never heard of anything.....
WWW,
There weren't any RAF fighter assets in Korea (not even 80 Sqn's Spit 24s from HK). Since the jet aircraft available would've been the Meteor F8 (outclassed by the MiG-15 as the Aussies found out) or the Vampire....
As I think I said earlier, the RAF FJ contribution came in the form of exchange pilots with USAF units.
There weren't any RAF fighter assets in Korea (not even 80 Sqn's Spit 24s from HK). Since the jet aircraft available would've been the Meteor F8 (outclassed by the MiG-15 as the Aussies found out) or the Vampire....
As I think I said earlier, the RAF FJ contribution came in the form of exchange pilots with USAF units.
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RJ,
No. Lots of opportunities but the UN ROE chain at the time was far too unweildy to be of use. All warring factions knew this and often replied with abuse or sarcasm to the standard warning transmitted over guard by AWACS and the fighters.
The only time anything was shot down was in Feb 94 when a load of Serb Super Galebs were splashed by USAF F-16s when witnessed attacking the Muslim enclave at Bihac. One of the pilots involved in that engagement was one Capt Scott O'Grady although he didn't get any kills himself.
Regards,
M2
No. Lots of opportunities but the UN ROE chain at the time was far too unweildy to be of use. All warring factions knew this and often replied with abuse or sarcasm to the standard warning transmitted over guard by AWACS and the fighters.
The only time anything was shot down was in Feb 94 when a load of Serb Super Galebs were splashed by USAF F-16s when witnessed attacking the Muslim enclave at Bihac. One of the pilots involved in that engagement was one Capt Scott O'Grady although he didn't get any kills himself.
Regards,
M2
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Heimdall.
Point of Order!
A KILL IS A KILL!!!!
.
If an Air to Air Guy bags a MiG 'cos the Mig Flew into Ground. He deserves the cred.
If a Mud bags a Mig on rotate while lifting off the R/W, he too deserves the cred.
If the facts are to be debated, fair enough, but BOMBS DO COUNT!!
Have you ever heared of the BiF?
Point of Order!
A KILL IS A KILL!!!!
.
If an Air to Air Guy bags a MiG 'cos the Mig Flew into Ground. He deserves the cred.
If a Mud bags a Mig on rotate while lifting off the R/W, he too deserves the cred.
If the facts are to be debated, fair enough, but BOMBS DO COUNT!!
Have you ever heared of the BiF?
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
In GW1 I think an F15 got an air-to-air with a bomb. OK, I know it is not RAF but worth mentioning anyway.
The helo thought he would get smart and go zero doppler in the hover. The F15E lased him and got him with an LGB. Smart.
The helo thought he would get smart and go zero doppler in the hover. The F15E lased him and got him with an LGB. Smart.
Yes - an F-15E was credited with a kill against a helicopter using a GBU-10 during Desert Storm - so bombs do count!
The issue (clearly) is whether the aircraft was off the ground when struck. Since manoeuvre counts as a weapon, a bomb must too.
Edited to avoid total duplication of PN's posting....
The issue (clearly) is whether the aircraft was off the ground when struck. Since manoeuvre counts as a weapon, a bomb must too.
Edited to avoid total duplication of PN's posting....
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Navaleye,
The Saudi pilot in question was Capt Ayehid Salah al-Shamrani who destroyed 2 Mirage F1s on 24 Jan 91 with AIM-9s. Given that all Saudi military officers seem to claim to be related to their Royal Family, he was probably a cousin twenty ninth removed!!
Regards,
M2
The Saudi pilot in question was Capt Ayehid Salah al-Shamrani who destroyed 2 Mirage F1s on 24 Jan 91 with AIM-9s. Given that all Saudi military officers seem to claim to be related to their Royal Family, he was probably a cousin twenty ninth removed!!
Regards,
M2
RAF exchange pilots certainly got kills with the USAF in Korea. John Nicholls (later an AOC in C Strike or something equally important) got the first in December 1952 (after damaging three more).
Squadron leader Max Higson from No.43 Squadron destroyed at least one MiG-15.
A Flight Lieutenant Daniel who flew with 334 FIS at Kimpo was credited with damaging two MiGs during his six-month tour during 1952.
Flight Lieutenant RTF Dickinson, shot down one MiG-15
Flight Lieutenant John Granville-White shot down one MiG 15
Flight Lieutenant Graham S Hulse shot down three more MiG 15s
Other post war kills all happened in wars where admitting them was impossible or politically undesirable, in just the way that the SAS's exploits have so often gone unacknowledged.
I was assured (by someone who was there) that No.208 Squadron took its revenge after four of its unarmed Spits were downed by the IDF/AF. That can't be confirmed, though Tim McElhaw of 208 (later OC 14 in the Canberra era) certainly got two Egyptian Spit Vs on 22 May 1948, and on 7 January 1949 B.Spragg of No 6 squadron, flying an RAF Tempest, shot down an IDF/AF Spitfire IX.
There are also persistent reports that a Venom mate got a kill during the Suez op (perhaps on 5 November, perhaps Flg. Off. Dave Williams of No.249, his victim being a Meteor), and that a Hunter bloke got a manoeuvre kill against a MiG-17 during the Confrontation (there are lots of references to this: eg: "a Hunter got into a maneuvering contest with a MiG-17, which resulted in the MiG pilot flying his aircraft into the ground. If this actually happened, it was the only air-to-air kill of the Hunter in British service"), and that a Javelin crew got a C-130 (eg: "but the Javelin held on for a few years longer in the Far East, where it gained its only air to air victory - an Indonesian C-130 which crashed while trying to avoid a Javelin that had been sent to intercept it during the Malayan crisis in 1964.")
The Phantom/Jag kill wasn't the first RAF own goal, either, a Lightning F2A (flown by M Valasek?) having earlier downed a Harrier GR3......
Nor was MiG-Eater's kill the only such victory in the Gulf War. On 17 January 1991 a JP233 bomblet dropped by an RAF Tornado GR.Mk.1 did for an Iraqi MiG-25PD as it attempted to take off.
Squadron leader Max Higson from No.43 Squadron destroyed at least one MiG-15.
A Flight Lieutenant Daniel who flew with 334 FIS at Kimpo was credited with damaging two MiGs during his six-month tour during 1952.
Flight Lieutenant RTF Dickinson, shot down one MiG-15
Flight Lieutenant John Granville-White shot down one MiG 15
Flight Lieutenant Graham S Hulse shot down three more MiG 15s
Other post war kills all happened in wars where admitting them was impossible or politically undesirable, in just the way that the SAS's exploits have so often gone unacknowledged.
I was assured (by someone who was there) that No.208 Squadron took its revenge after four of its unarmed Spits were downed by the IDF/AF. That can't be confirmed, though Tim McElhaw of 208 (later OC 14 in the Canberra era) certainly got two Egyptian Spit Vs on 22 May 1948, and on 7 January 1949 B.Spragg of No 6 squadron, flying an RAF Tempest, shot down an IDF/AF Spitfire IX.
There are also persistent reports that a Venom mate got a kill during the Suez op (perhaps on 5 November, perhaps Flg. Off. Dave Williams of No.249, his victim being a Meteor), and that a Hunter bloke got a manoeuvre kill against a MiG-17 during the Confrontation (there are lots of references to this: eg: "a Hunter got into a maneuvering contest with a MiG-17, which resulted in the MiG pilot flying his aircraft into the ground. If this actually happened, it was the only air-to-air kill of the Hunter in British service"), and that a Javelin crew got a C-130 (eg: "but the Javelin held on for a few years longer in the Far East, where it gained its only air to air victory - an Indonesian C-130 which crashed while trying to avoid a Javelin that had been sent to intercept it during the Malayan crisis in 1964.")
The Phantom/Jag kill wasn't the first RAF own goal, either, a Lightning F2A (flown by M Valasek?) having earlier downed a Harrier GR3......
Nor was MiG-Eater's kill the only such victory in the Gulf War. On 17 January 1991 a JP233 bomblet dropped by an RAF Tornado GR.Mk.1 did for an Iraqi MiG-25PD as it attempted to take off.
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Good post, Jacko and excellent research. Thanks.
Wasn't the Lightning on Harrier event because the Harrier pilot had ejected, the impetus of which redirected the flightpath of the jet towards East Germany (the engine having spooled up again) and therefore the decision was taken to shoot it down before it ended up in enemy hands!
At least so the story went around the bar at Happy Hour at LLK in the 70s!
Wasn't the Lightning on Harrier event because the Harrier pilot had ejected, the impetus of which redirected the flightpath of the jet towards East Germany (the engine having spooled up again) and therefore the decision was taken to shoot it down before it ended up in enemy hands!
At least so the story went around the bar at Happy Hour at LLK in the 70s!
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IAF v RAF
Jackonicko
A couple of points about your last post:
I have also spoken to a number of ex-208 Sqn pilots who were involved in the incident on 7 Jan 49. Although everyone was keen to extract revenge on the Israelis (or more accurately two mercenary pilots - a Canadian and an American) they were expressly forbidden from doing so by the HQ. No one I spoke to would confirm that any further incident took place and as the IAF have no record of any subsequent attack on any of their bases or planes by the RAF, I believe the claims of having extracting ‘revenge’ are just wishful thinking.
The four 208 Sqn Spitfire FR18 that were shot down on 7 Jan 49 were armed and could return fire – Geoff Cooper did just that against the American who attacked his aircraft.
I have spoken to Brian Spragg and he did not shoot down an IAF Spitfire on 7 Jan 49. He did obtain some hits on one aircraft, but it later landed safely back in Israel and was subsequently repaired. In the event, he never actually claimed a kill.
I still believe that Tim McElhaw has the last confirmed and completely RAF air-to-air kill.
Heimdall
www.spyflight.co.uk
A couple of points about your last post:
I have also spoken to a number of ex-208 Sqn pilots who were involved in the incident on 7 Jan 49. Although everyone was keen to extract revenge on the Israelis (or more accurately two mercenary pilots - a Canadian and an American) they were expressly forbidden from doing so by the HQ. No one I spoke to would confirm that any further incident took place and as the IAF have no record of any subsequent attack on any of their bases or planes by the RAF, I believe the claims of having extracting ‘revenge’ are just wishful thinking.
The four 208 Sqn Spitfire FR18 that were shot down on 7 Jan 49 were armed and could return fire – Geoff Cooper did just that against the American who attacked his aircraft.
I have spoken to Brian Spragg and he did not shoot down an IAF Spitfire on 7 Jan 49. He did obtain some hits on one aircraft, but it later landed safely back in Israel and was subsequently repaired. In the event, he never actually claimed a kill.
I still believe that Tim McElhaw has the last confirmed and completely RAF air-to-air kill.
Heimdall
www.spyflight.co.uk
Folding Wings/Heimdall,
Thanks. No serious research was involved.
Re the Lightning kill, I'm even more clueless than usual!
Re Spragg, I know that he didn't claim the kill, but Ezer Weitzmann later admitted the loss of a Spit, to an RAF 'Spit', on that date. Spragg's engagement is the only one that fits.
Re 208, I spoke to several of the chaps who were on the Squadron at the time. Without checking back in my interview notes I can't be certain, but I'm pretty sure that someone that day was unarmed, or otherwise physically unable to fire. Perhaps (and I'm delving into dusty bits of memory here) it was only TJ Mac, who I think got on the tails of his attackers impotently before being shot down.
While many denied that the 'revenge' took place all were distinctly uncomfortable about the question, and two of five people I interviewed grudgingly admitted that air to air kills over IDF/AF aircraft did happen. Part of the sensitivity was political, and part was due to the nature of one of the Israeli types downed - you've obviously heard the rumours, so you'll know exactly what I mean, I'm sure. I didn't understand it, myself - a kill's a kill, don't they say, and it's no different to Sharkey's C-130, really!
My understanding was that two people were very nearly court martialled over it, and that the 'revenge' incidents cast a shadow over the future careers of some of those involved, who would otherwise have been expected to reach Air Rank.
Re IDF/AF records I'd only say that the Israelis have never been terribly helpful in allowing access to any more than the PR accounts, and while they have always been eager to make claims, and to trumpet their huge achievements (sometimes 'over trumpeting') they have never been happy admitting their few air-to-air losses, even when such losses have been independently witnessed and verified.
In any event, so many people have talked to me about the Venom/MiG incident at Suez that I'm inclined to believe that it happened, while the Javelin and Hunter stories in Indonesia are even harder to dismiss than they are to confirm.
Thanks. No serious research was involved.
Re the Lightning kill, I'm even more clueless than usual!
Re Spragg, I know that he didn't claim the kill, but Ezer Weitzmann later admitted the loss of a Spit, to an RAF 'Spit', on that date. Spragg's engagement is the only one that fits.
Re 208, I spoke to several of the chaps who were on the Squadron at the time. Without checking back in my interview notes I can't be certain, but I'm pretty sure that someone that day was unarmed, or otherwise physically unable to fire. Perhaps (and I'm delving into dusty bits of memory here) it was only TJ Mac, who I think got on the tails of his attackers impotently before being shot down.
While many denied that the 'revenge' took place all were distinctly uncomfortable about the question, and two of five people I interviewed grudgingly admitted that air to air kills over IDF/AF aircraft did happen. Part of the sensitivity was political, and part was due to the nature of one of the Israeli types downed - you've obviously heard the rumours, so you'll know exactly what I mean, I'm sure. I didn't understand it, myself - a kill's a kill, don't they say, and it's no different to Sharkey's C-130, really!
My understanding was that two people were very nearly court martialled over it, and that the 'revenge' incidents cast a shadow over the future careers of some of those involved, who would otherwise have been expected to reach Air Rank.
Re IDF/AF records I'd only say that the Israelis have never been terribly helpful in allowing access to any more than the PR accounts, and while they have always been eager to make claims, and to trumpet their huge achievements (sometimes 'over trumpeting') they have never been happy admitting their few air-to-air losses, even when such losses have been independently witnessed and verified.
In any event, so many people have talked to me about the Venom/MiG incident at Suez that I'm inclined to believe that it happened, while the Javelin and Hunter stories in Indonesia are even harder to dismiss than they are to confirm.
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Just a point of interest here but i've just been looking at the most recent defence select committee report where Alan West was trying to justify Carriers and he said ...
Sooo...
1/ Why do we need so many eurofighters if this is the case?
2/ Why are so many of the light-blue anti flat-top? If they want to stay in the air combat game then sea basing must be the way ahead.
3/ Surely WEBF has a point (actually a hell of a lot of points) on not getting rid of SHAR?
"reel 'em in!"
some time since the last war every aircraft shot down in air to air combat by the Brits, apart from one, has been shot down by an aeroplane that took off from a carrier. Why is that? It is because the carriers can get where the action is.
1/ Why do we need so many eurofighters if this is the case?
2/ Why are so many of the light-blue anti flat-top? If they want to stay in the air combat game then sea basing must be the way ahead.
3/ Surely WEBF has a point (actually a hell of a lot of points) on not getting rid of SHAR?
"reel 'em in!"
Suspicion breeds confidence
althenick, I think you are 100% spot on. We are committed to the EF -- I've no doubt its a great plane, but what we should be doing is to expand the F35 community even at the cost of Eurofighter numbers.
The MoD has been clever in positioning CVF as a joint assett and this makes it much harder for the RAF to oppose (although they still try) and for that reason I think the project will go ahead. Personnaly I would prefer to see 3 CVFs with two operational at anyone time.
The MoD has been clever in positioning CVF as a joint assett and this makes it much harder for the RAF to oppose (although they still try) and for that reason I think the project will go ahead. Personnaly I would prefer to see 3 CVFs with two operational at anyone time.
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Well that's the thread successfully hijacked. Sorry to all - I never meant for that to happen, It was just a little bit of wickedness on my part 
WEBF - did you really say that?
Not another "my shade of blue is better than yours" thread.........please.