Nimrod recce of Argentine coast 1982
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Jacko
Your gen is duff, Beeayeate.
OK, it's a fair cop Jacko on that score. Completely forgot about the info my own website - senior moment there.
No excuses but I was basing my supposition on a mail I had some time back from a Chilean enthusiast. This was not written in English and the babblefish translation seemed to say the two were airworthy now. Obviously not so reading from your gen.
343
and
341
I suspect that you won't be able to find hard evidence placing those Canberras at St Athan until after the war was over.....
Don't understand what you're getting at here as that's what I said.
I wrote that the three 9s were in storage at St Athan from May 1982 after coming off charge of 39 Sqn on its disbanding. Surely this means that they were at St Athan after the war was over. Didn't say that they were involved in ops during the war, did you think I did? If, however, you know different I'd be pleased to hear your gen. 
Your gen is duff, Beeayeate.
OK, it's a fair cop Jacko on that score. Completely forgot about the info my own website - senior moment there.
No excuses but I was basing my supposition on a mail I had some time back from a Chilean enthusiast. This was not written in English and the babblefish translation seemed to say the two were airworthy now. Obviously not so reading from your gen.343
and
341
I suspect that you won't be able to find hard evidence placing those Canberras at St Athan until after the war was over.....
Don't understand what you're getting at here as that's what I said.
I wrote that the three 9s were in storage at St Athan from May 1982 after coming off charge of 39 Sqn on its disbanding. Surely this means that they were at St Athan after the war was over. Didn't say that they were involved in ops during the war, did you think I did? If, however, you know different I'd be pleased to hear your gen.
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I'm rather tempted to fill in a few missing pieces from this jigsaw, as I was heavily involved in the subject being discussed.
But I have a feeling that this info is not in the public domain and won't be until 2012, if at all. Although nowadays some people are arranging the book deals on their resettlement, and I'm amazed that these details haven't come out.
And I feel that Jacko knows exactly what occured, but is doing a bit of fishing to get us to bite.
So, why have I posted? Just to let you know that I'm watching with interest!
But I have a feeling that this info is not in the public domain and won't be until 2012, if at all. Although nowadays some people are arranging the book deals on their resettlement, and I'm amazed that these details haven't come out.
And I feel that Jacko knows exactly what occured, but is doing a bit of fishing to get us to bite.
So, why have I posted? Just to let you know that I'm watching with interest!
You're half right. I am fishing.
But I do not know exactly what happened at all, and haven't spoken to anyone reliable enough to lift it from the 'fascinating rumour supported by circumstantial evidence' category.
I do think that there was probably a plan to use Canberra PR9s from Chile, but don't have the faintest as to whether it actually happened or not. But I do also think that some of the PR9s were somewhere other than where the official line suggests. Those not at Wyton weren't sitting at St Athan, but could have been at Boscombe flying in support of some UOR, or could have been in Norway, Honkers, or any of their other regular haunts.
But after 21 years, I think that if it had happened, we would have heard something a tad more solid.....
Unless you know different!
But I do not know exactly what happened at all, and haven't spoken to anyone reliable enough to lift it from the 'fascinating rumour supported by circumstantial evidence' category.
I do think that there was probably a plan to use Canberra PR9s from Chile, but don't have the faintest as to whether it actually happened or not. But I do also think that some of the PR9s were somewhere other than where the official line suggests. Those not at Wyton weren't sitting at St Athan, but could have been at Boscombe flying in support of some UOR, or could have been in Norway, Honkers, or any of their other regular haunts.
But after 21 years, I think that if it had happened, we would have heard something a tad more solid.....
Unless you know different!
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Please guys, let's be very careful here. Let's not make too many statements or speculate about aspects of the Falklands war that were classified and still are. It won't do anyone any favours and could get this post pulled by Danny. There is much of interest going on here without going too far...
Come on chaps,I think you've strayed off the point a bit and are letting that total J Arthur W****r............. Ward, off the hook.I find his comments offensive and appear to be made to satisfy his ego.
Perhaps he hasn't heard of his Naval comrades attempt to shoot down a V****r with a couple of S** D***s on one of those MR missions.
Never met the guy but I can imagine what he's like.
Perhaps he hasn't heard of his Naval comrades attempt to shoot down a V****r with a couple of S** D***s on one of those MR missions.
Never met the guy but I can imagine what he's like.
We're talking about the Falklands. 22 years ago. That's ancient history, and in view of the changed circumstances, that war represents a great case for an end to the blanket 30 year rule and for a proper Freedom of Information act.
There is no possible military reason for secrecy after this amount of time. It's like forbidding discussion of WWII SOE ops in 1966...... It happened but it was ludicrous, kneejerk secrecy run mad.
There is no possible military reason for secrecy after this amount of time. It's like forbidding discussion of WWII SOE ops in 1966...... It happened but it was ludicrous, kneejerk secrecy run mad.
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Mmmm. . . don't want to get caught up in one of Jacko's things so I'll fade. 
Just want to say, the info I posted came from not only a couple of books (same story in each) but also a few conversations with blokes in the Canberra Assoc.
Finally, find myself in agreement with Jacko though. The fact of the three 9s is well known, and has been for at least 20 years, even though detail may still be blurred. Can't see the need for secrecy now except, maybe, for political reasons.
Just want to say, the info I posted came from not only a couple of books (same story in each) but also a few conversations with blokes in the Canberra Assoc.
Finally, find myself in agreement with Jacko though. The fact of the three 9s is well known, and has been for at least 20 years, even though detail may still be blurred. Can't see the need for secrecy now except, maybe, for political reasons.
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Beeayeate - the reaason for the secrecy is as it ever was, and ever will be, i.e. to protect the guilty!
This from one who spent the happiest three years of my 22 in uniform with 13(PR) Sqn. in Malta.
Kind regards,
TheNightOwl.
This from one who spent the happiest three years of my 22 in uniform with 13(PR) Sqn. in Malta.
Kind regards,
TheNightOwl.
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Impiger
The French were created by God (deference to F18 Flower) for the express purpose of making wine for our delictation. Glad you're not drinking it; there's more for us.
This thread seems to have meandered off track, did the crabs take piccies of the Argie coast or not.
FEBA
The French were created by God (deference to F18 Flower) for the express purpose of making wine for our delictation. Glad you're not drinking it; there's more for us.
This thread seems to have meandered off track, did the crabs take piccies of the Argie coast or not.
FEBA
Suspicion breeds confidence
Thread Starter
Nimrod recce
I'm not surprised that no one has jumped in to say to confirm this incident, because I have seen no independant confirmation to say that it ever happened.
1. Did the RAF fly maritime patrol sorties in the area of the falklands task force? Yes. Adm Woodward made comments to this effect. He also said that the reports they provided were very poor. More often than not the wrong target was identified or misreported. Woodward gave the RAF a rocket over this and they went into a sulk.
2. Did they fly along the length of the Argentine coast 160miles out, dodging Mirages on the way to sanitise the ocean between Argentina and the falklands task force? There is no evidence outside of RAF folklore to support this. This not to say it didn't happen but given that the RAF was so keen to promote everything else it did in the Falklands, why stay so reticent about this? They could have awarded the crew the DSC!
1. Did the RAF fly maritime patrol sorties in the area of the falklands task force? Yes. Adm Woodward made comments to this effect. He also said that the reports they provided were very poor. More often than not the wrong target was identified or misreported. Woodward gave the RAF a rocket over this and they went into a sulk.
2. Did they fly along the length of the Argentine coast 160miles out, dodging Mirages on the way to sanitise the ocean between Argentina and the falklands task force? There is no evidence outside of RAF folklore to support this. This not to say it didn't happen but given that the RAF was so keen to promote everything else it did in the Falklands, why stay so reticent about this? They could have awarded the crew the DSC!
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The Falklands campaign in general revealed in many ways how little each of the Services knew about the others' operational techniques and capabilities at the time, and this generated false expectations and much bad feeling - as is shown in Sharky's book and Navaleye's post above. I was witness to one contretemps between the task force and a Nimrod that was entirely caused by different interpretations of the rules applying to aircraft within the task force zone. Before you leap on the Nimrod crew, their interpretation had been provided by the Senior Naval Officer's staff in Ascension....
It's easily done!
Anyway, there was a lot of activity away from the immediate Falklands area, but of direct relevence to the war, carried out by many agencies - including the RAF. The value of those activities is debatable, especially as (I would guess) the results never reached the intended recipients a lot of the time! As, I would imagine, the revelation of those activities could cause serious embarrassment to UK and foreign politicians of the day, it's likely that they will remain secret until 2012 - or later!
It's easily done!
Anyway, there was a lot of activity away from the immediate Falklands area, but of direct relevence to the war, carried out by many agencies - including the RAF. The value of those activities is debatable, especially as (I would guess) the results never reached the intended recipients a lot of the time! As, I would imagine, the revelation of those activities could cause serious embarrassment to UK and foreign politicians of the day, it's likely that they will remain secret until 2012 - or later!
Navaleye,
"........no evidence outside of RAF folklore".........
Apart from ORAC's post on page 1 of this thread, taken from the best researched book on that war, and which gives you dates, aircraft serials, crew names and brief details of the missions which you'd prefer to think didn't happen.
But to make you happy, No.1 Squadron didn't take any GR3s down there, there were no nasty light blue folks flying SHARs, every Vulcan mission was a waste of time, and that Chinook (Bravo November) did nothing worthwhile. Furthermore the Paras achieved nothing (cos they were all poofs) and only the Royal Navy and Royal Marines did anything remotely worthy of credit in the Falklands.
Get over it.
"........no evidence outside of RAF folklore".........
Apart from ORAC's post on page 1 of this thread, taken from the best researched book on that war, and which gives you dates, aircraft serials, crew names and brief details of the missions which you'd prefer to think didn't happen.
But to make you happy, No.1 Squadron didn't take any GR3s down there, there were no nasty light blue folks flying SHARs, every Vulcan mission was a waste of time, and that Chinook (Bravo November) did nothing worthwhile. Furthermore the Paras achieved nothing (cos they were all poofs) and only the Royal Navy and Royal Marines did anything remotely worthy of credit in the Falklands.
Get over it.
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Carry-On in the Falklands
I suugest that folks intrerested in following this thread read Nigel West's book Secret War in the Falklands. It goes into considerable detail about the shenanigans in the air (and sea). Nigel West's books are generally very accurate; anyway they make a good read.
Don't bother looking in my local library for a copy ... I still have it out. Must return it sometime.
Don't bother looking in my local library for a copy ... I still have it out. Must return it sometime.
Suspicion breeds confidence
Thread Starter
Nigel West book
Yes, thanks I have it but haven't read it for sometime. I vaguely recall a court case where Mr West's character and reputation for accurate reporting was taken to pieces by a senior judge. I have taken his work with a pinch of salt since then. That said. he does have access to some folks at the centre of events at the time.
Jacko,
I'm very grateful to Orac for his post and published source. I have other equally well researched books on the subject that report events differently. The Fog of War creeps in everywhere. As a journalist, I'm surprised that you confuse my desire to get at the facts with single service bias. I have no axe to grind. I have never met Sharkey Ward, but his book does provide very good material for any student of the subject. After all, he was there and you and I were not.
BTW, I would be interested in hearing others views on the best books on the subject. Ethell and Price scores very highly IMHO for detailed research not long after the event.
In the last month have read Adm Woodward's book (100 days), Amphibious Assault Falklands by Mike Clapp and No Picnic by Julian Thompson. I'm still struggling with the last one (you can tell its been written by a soldier) but you could be forgiven for think that these guys were taking part in different wars. This is why I am reluctant to take any one source as gospel.
Jacko,
I'm very grateful to Orac for his post and published source. I have other equally well researched books on the subject that report events differently. The Fog of War creeps in everywhere. As a journalist, I'm surprised that you confuse my desire to get at the facts with single service bias. I have no axe to grind. I have never met Sharkey Ward, but his book does provide very good material for any student of the subject. After all, he was there and you and I were not.
BTW, I would be interested in hearing others views on the best books on the subject. Ethell and Price scores very highly IMHO for detailed research not long after the event.
In the last month have read Adm Woodward's book (100 days), Amphibious Assault Falklands by Mike Clapp and No Picnic by Julian Thompson. I'm still struggling with the last one (you can tell its been written by a soldier) but you could be forgiven for think that these guys were taking part in different wars. This is why I am reluctant to take any one source as gospel.
Last edited by Navaleye; 27th Jan 2004 at 17:47.
Because Dr Alf and Jeff Ethell produced their book in double-quick time, and because they worked alone, the book has strengths and weaknesses. They did an excellent job at going around and hoovering up interviews with aircrew, and as a result their (relatively slender) book was high on first hand accounts and incisive analysis from the perspective of those who fought, though it lacks the mind-numbing and tedious attention to detail of the Falklands - The Air War book, which had five named co-authors, tens of 'helpers' and which took four years to produce. It was also a 'labour of love' rather than a commercial proposition. As a result the 480 pages are so denseley packed as to be almost unreadable, but the book is a superb reference source, more detailed and better researched than the Price/Ethell volume.
The Ethell/Price book also gives much the same details of the Nimrod sorties as did ORAC. I refer you to pages 93-94.
With regard to the 'events' in Chile, West says little more than the earlier Duncan Campbell piece in New Statesman which first revealed the use of the Canberra PR9. He did refer to there being only three PR9s in Chile during the war (this may be an assumption based on the number provided to the Chileans post-war but I don't think earlier articles gave a number) and he did refer to the two RAF Hercules deployed as having been deployed for 'Sigint' purposes - which is also different to other sources, which assumed they were specifically deployed for Operation Mikado.
The Ethell/Price book also gives much the same details of the Nimrod sorties as did ORAC. I refer you to pages 93-94.
With regard to the 'events' in Chile, West says little more than the earlier Duncan Campbell piece in New Statesman which first revealed the use of the Canberra PR9. He did refer to there being only three PR9s in Chile during the war (this may be an assumption based on the number provided to the Chileans post-war but I don't think earlier articles gave a number) and he did refer to the two RAF Hercules deployed as having been deployed for 'Sigint' purposes - which is also different to other sources, which assumed they were specifically deployed for Operation Mikado.
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One of the few souvenirs my father brought back from the Falklands (losing your ship depletes your collection) was a photocopy of a glossy little leaflet the RAF had kindly sent to some of the ships, with nice piccies of the aircraft types and text on what each was up to in the war.
It had been re-titled by some navy wag as 'Laff alonga Raff' and widely viewed as a hilarious work of fiction akin to a child's short story, which indicated at least how inter-service rivalries were a thin veil for some real discontent about how the operation hung together.
It had been re-titled by some navy wag as 'Laff alonga Raff' and widely viewed as a hilarious work of fiction akin to a child's short story, which indicated at least how inter-service rivalries were a thin veil for some real discontent about how the operation hung together.
Suspicion breeds confidence
Thread Starter
Falklands air war
Jacko (or anyone),
have you had a chance to read Falklands Air War Chris Hobson, Andrew Noble? This came out a year or two ago but I haven't a chance to read it yet. Does it contain any new information?
have you had a chance to read Falklands Air War Chris Hobson, Andrew Noble? This came out a year or two ago but I haven't a chance to read it yet. Does it contain any new information?
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Navaleyes,
What you have learned is one of the basic lessons of historical document analysis. It is essential when looking at any “account” of any event to look deeper than just the words on the page. You need to understand the author, the period in which the document is written and the intended audience. All of these have an effect on the “truth” as it is written. This explains why over all the texts you have read you are seeing such a disparate “recollection”. A further problematic issue is the reader of any given document. It is exceptionally difficult to divest oneself of any preconceived notions. We all have them; anyone who says they do not is a liar. It is a simple part of the human psychological make-up.
What does this all mean? Simply put take everything with a pinch of salt and you will not go too far wrong. So far each of the accounts you have read from those who were there has had an agenda.
Cheers
BHR
What you have learned is one of the basic lessons of historical document analysis. It is essential when looking at any “account” of any event to look deeper than just the words on the page. You need to understand the author, the period in which the document is written and the intended audience. All of these have an effect on the “truth” as it is written. This explains why over all the texts you have read you are seeing such a disparate “recollection”. A further problematic issue is the reader of any given document. It is exceptionally difficult to divest oneself of any preconceived notions. We all have them; anyone who says they do not is a liar. It is a simple part of the human psychological make-up.
What does this all mean? Simply put take everything with a pinch of salt and you will not go too far wrong. So far each of the accounts you have read from those who were there has had an agenda.
Cheers
BHR