Defence: Public ignorance, the media, and cutbacks
Thread Starter
Still no reply?
Sounds like a number of politicians! Unfortunately their experience is rather limited, never having worked outside the party political system.
.....the sort of captain that thought because of his experience/ability that he always knew best, and told the co-pilot that when you wanted his opinion you would give it to him? Thankfully such dinosaurs are largely a thing of the past.
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WEBF
Actually I was the kind of Captain who was the Training Captain/ Flight Instructor/ Local Examiner and Instrument Rating Examiner.
PS Biggus is on my IGNORE list.
PPS The Co-Pilot was quite often Female.
Actually I was the kind of Captain who was the Training Captain/ Flight Instructor/ Local Examiner and Instrument Rating Examiner.
PS Biggus is on my IGNORE list.
PPS The Co-Pilot was quite often Female.
Last edited by cazatou; 9th Dec 2011 at 18:14.
There was certainly a time, and maybe it's still the case on occasion, when being a "...Training Captain/ Flight Instructor/ Local Examiner and Instrument Rating Examiner..." didn't preclude one from also being a dinosaur, in fact the two often went hand in hand.....
At least caz won't have to waste his time on a saturday reading this.....
At least caz won't have to waste his time on a saturday reading this.....
Thread Starter
Anyway, moving on from the disagreement between caz and Biggus...
Would anyone like to comment on the Iran story I quoted above, and how this fits in with SDSR (which appears to have been changed at the last minute to fit the views of the then CGS).
Consider these two papers:
Closing Time
US-Iranian Confrontation At Sea
Would anyone like to comment on the Iran story I quoted above, and how this fits in with SDSR (which appears to have been changed at the last minute to fit the views of the then CGS).
Consider these two papers:
Closing Time
US-Iranian Confrontation At Sea
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To quote the late, great Frank Barone "Jeezaloo"!!!
I step away for a couple of weeks and a hissy fit breaks out.
Biggus, many thanks for standing my corner! I owe you a pint!!
Caz, the less said about you the better.
To those who asked about my opinion on the replacement of Trident, what is it you wish to know?
In an attempt to pre-empt a few of the questions there are several points to raise.
1) It will be a hideously expensive line item in the budget.
2) It will go over budget and be late.
3) We do not need it.
I step away for a couple of weeks and a hissy fit breaks out.
Biggus, many thanks for standing my corner! I owe you a pint!!
Caz, the less said about you the better.
To those who asked about my opinion on the replacement of Trident, what is it you wish to know?
In an attempt to pre-empt a few of the questions there are several points to raise.
1) It will be a hideously expensive line item in the budget.
2) It will go over budget and be late.
3) We do not need it.
Thread Starter
Still no discussion about the potential for an Iranian campaign of Iranian harrassment and/or attacks against shiipping in the Gulf and Arabian Sea?
1) Define hideously.
2) How do you know? Lessons should have been learnt from the problems with the Astute Class, loss of skills and experience, and so on...
3) Why not?
Originally Posted by BHR
To those who asked about my opinion on the replacement of Trident, what is it you wish to know?
In an attempt to pre-empt a few of the questions there are several points to raise.
1) It will be a hideously expensive line item in the budget.
2) It will go over budget and be late.
3) We do not need it.
In an attempt to pre-empt a few of the questions there are several points to raise.
1) It will be a hideously expensive line item in the budget.
2) It will go over budget and be late.
3) We do not need it.
2) How do you know? Lessons should have been learnt from the problems with the Astute Class, loss of skills and experience, and so on...
3) Why not?
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WEBF said "Still no discussion about the potential for an Iranian campaign of Iranian harrassment and/or attacks against shiipping in the Gulf and Arabian Sea?"
That is because no-one is prepared to accept that there is a risk of it happening. Ostrich syndrome
That is because no-one is prepared to accept that there is a risk of it happening. Ostrich syndrome
Thread Starter
WEBF said "Still no discussion about the potential for an Iranian campaign of Iranian harrassment and/or attacks against shiipping in the Gulf and Arabian Sea?"
That is because no-one is prepared to accept that there is a risk of it happening. Ostrich syndrome
That is because no-one is prepared to accept that there is a risk of it happening. Ostrich syndrome
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But surely it is sort of happening already, isn't it? I thought it was a given that it would happen as soon as they announced their intention. I think I must have missed something here. Nothing new in that!
Thread Starter
Navy shows huge resilience, despite savage cutbacks
For the Naval Service the story of 2011 was, to adapt a quote from A Tale of Two Cities by Charles Dickens, a saga of the best and worst of times.
It lost ships, aircraft and people in defence cuts that left allies shaking their heads with disbelief – particularly the French and Americans, the UK's two closest front line partners. From Washington DC to Paris, the decision to get rid of Britain's strike carrier capability, and the news that it may not return properly until 2030, seemed incomprehensible.
It was deeply imprudent of the coalition government to discard the very power projection forces that define a modern state as counting for something in this chaotic world. Britain now stands out as the only major European maritime power that does not currently possess strike carrier capability, for France, Spain and Italy all have modern ships and naval jets. Confusion and doubt continues to surround the construction of the two new British super-carriers, allegedly entering service from 2020 but lacking strike jets (or enough of them to matter). Similarly, the decision to axe four badly needed, Devonport-based, Type 22 frigates seemed an act of sheer madness for a nation that depends on maritime trade – and therefore secure sealanes – to sustain itself.
But, true to style, the Royal Navy has risen to the challenge and, even with the thin blue line stretched to breaking, managed to achieve remarkable things, especially in what was probably its finest moment of sea combat since the Gulf War of 1991. Devonport-based warships and submarines, together with marines, aviators and sailors based throughout the South West were in the vanguard of writing yet another incredible chapter of British naval history. The contribution of the Royal Navy to the Libya campaign was remarkable, even if it did not garner much attention nationally compared to the RAF's efforts. Despite having its surface combatant force slashed, and other key maritime defence capabilities cut, the UK contributed across the spectrum of naval operations: from clearing mines (allowing aid shipments and refugee ships into and out of besieged Misrata), bombarding Gaddafi regime targets (using the 4.5-inch guns of a destroyer and frigates), conducting deep strike against strategic targets (submarine-launched cruise missiles) to providing a platform for battlefield strikes (HMS Ocean and the Army's Apaches). The Navy also, via warships and its helicopters, played a vital role in targeting and also intelligence gathering. It was sometimes carried out under fire, for the Navy got in close and for extended periods of time.
In tandem with all this the Naval Service was maintaining a huge effort elsewhere in the world, from contributing 3 Commando Brigade and other units to spearhead the fight in Afghanistan, to counter-piracy in the Indian Ocean, maritime security patrolling in the Gulf and staging the first of its new long-distance Response Force Task Group deployments (featuring Devonport-based amphibious warfare vessels). The Libya effort even impressed Prime Minister David Cameron, who had in October 2010, had revealed the outcome of the Strategic Defence and Security Review (SDSR) that caused so much damage to the Navy. In early December 2011 the PM welcomed sailors and marines from warships, including Devonport-based HMS Ocean and Portsmouth-based destroyer HMS Liverpool to a reception at 10 Downing Street. The Prime Minister told his guests: "A really heartfelt thank you from me! I can't tell you what a thrill it is, having sat day-after-day – 68 meetings we had with the National Security Council – in some bunker in the next door building there, talking about "will the minesweeper get through to Misrata?" Well, I've now met the people that were sailing on it. We were [also] talking [in the bunker] about how HMS Liverpool is getting on trying to stop Gaddafi in Tripoli – I've now met, not only the captain of that ship, but he's very kindly given me my proudest possession, one of the shell casings that was fired in anger that is now going to be an umbrella stand in the Cameron household."
It's good to know that Mr Cameron will have such a prominent reminder of the importance of Naval Gunfire Support, provided so bravely by a destroyer more than 30 years old that is destined to be decommissioned this spring.
It symbolises so much about today's Royal Navy – making the best of what it has left, using old, but obviously regularly refurbished, ships and applying warfare skills that lack the sheer glamour of the RAF's jet fighters, but actually possibly achieve just as much, if not more. Of course Devonport-based frigates also fired their guns at Gaddafi targets, while the Plymouth-based submarine Triumph launched missiles, too, while Ocean – which will this summer sit on the Thames at Greenwich to provide a security hub for the London Olympics – made up for the lack of Harriers and a strike carrier by launching those Apache helicopter gunships and Sea King Mk7 command and control 'copters (operated by the Fleet Air Arm's Cornish aviators).
This year sees the 30th anniversary of the most amazing naval victory the British have achieved since the end of WW2, the Falklands War, but apparently the Senior Service is intent on making the error of not making that much of its amazing feat of arms. The RN is modest, to a fault, especially as the RAF, which in reality played a minor role in the war of 1982, is said to be leading the Falklands 30 events on behalf of the MoD. That RAF will, as it always does, make a huge amount of PR out of its comparatively small achievements in the Falklands War.
However, perhaps events will force the Royal Navy into the limelight again, for the Argentineans are still keen on possessing those windswept South Atlantic islands, not least because of the oil and gas fields potentially to be found in their waters. They have orchestrated their allies in Latin America to assist in what amounts to the initiation of an attempt to impose a maritime embargo on the Falklands, while Argentinean naval vessels have already been challenging ships. The best means to counter such passive-aggressive action is to deliver a frigate or destroyer riposte, but if there is one thing the Navy of 2012 lacks it is just those sorts of ships. As no less than Admiral Lord Horatio Nelson once wailed: "Were I to die this moment, 'Want of Frigates' would be found stamped on my heart."
When he contemplates his new umbrella stand will the Prime Minister finally understand the egregious error of cutting Devonport's Type 22 frigates and the UK not building enough new destroyers? Possibly, but the last time a Tory Prime Minister had to be shown the error of cutting the Navy by events in the South Atlantic it costs hundreds of lives. Let's hope 2012 is not as bloody.
For the Naval Service the story of 2011 was, to adapt a quote from A Tale of Two Cities by Charles Dickens, a saga of the best and worst of times.
It lost ships, aircraft and people in defence cuts that left allies shaking their heads with disbelief – particularly the French and Americans, the UK's two closest front line partners. From Washington DC to Paris, the decision to get rid of Britain's strike carrier capability, and the news that it may not return properly until 2030, seemed incomprehensible.
It was deeply imprudent of the coalition government to discard the very power projection forces that define a modern state as counting for something in this chaotic world. Britain now stands out as the only major European maritime power that does not currently possess strike carrier capability, for France, Spain and Italy all have modern ships and naval jets. Confusion and doubt continues to surround the construction of the two new British super-carriers, allegedly entering service from 2020 but lacking strike jets (or enough of them to matter). Similarly, the decision to axe four badly needed, Devonport-based, Type 22 frigates seemed an act of sheer madness for a nation that depends on maritime trade – and therefore secure sealanes – to sustain itself.
But, true to style, the Royal Navy has risen to the challenge and, even with the thin blue line stretched to breaking, managed to achieve remarkable things, especially in what was probably its finest moment of sea combat since the Gulf War of 1991. Devonport-based warships and submarines, together with marines, aviators and sailors based throughout the South West were in the vanguard of writing yet another incredible chapter of British naval history. The contribution of the Royal Navy to the Libya campaign was remarkable, even if it did not garner much attention nationally compared to the RAF's efforts. Despite having its surface combatant force slashed, and other key maritime defence capabilities cut, the UK contributed across the spectrum of naval operations: from clearing mines (allowing aid shipments and refugee ships into and out of besieged Misrata), bombarding Gaddafi regime targets (using the 4.5-inch guns of a destroyer and frigates), conducting deep strike against strategic targets (submarine-launched cruise missiles) to providing a platform for battlefield strikes (HMS Ocean and the Army's Apaches). The Navy also, via warships and its helicopters, played a vital role in targeting and also intelligence gathering. It was sometimes carried out under fire, for the Navy got in close and for extended periods of time.
In tandem with all this the Naval Service was maintaining a huge effort elsewhere in the world, from contributing 3 Commando Brigade and other units to spearhead the fight in Afghanistan, to counter-piracy in the Indian Ocean, maritime security patrolling in the Gulf and staging the first of its new long-distance Response Force Task Group deployments (featuring Devonport-based amphibious warfare vessels). The Libya effort even impressed Prime Minister David Cameron, who had in October 2010, had revealed the outcome of the Strategic Defence and Security Review (SDSR) that caused so much damage to the Navy. In early December 2011 the PM welcomed sailors and marines from warships, including Devonport-based HMS Ocean and Portsmouth-based destroyer HMS Liverpool to a reception at 10 Downing Street. The Prime Minister told his guests: "A really heartfelt thank you from me! I can't tell you what a thrill it is, having sat day-after-day – 68 meetings we had with the National Security Council – in some bunker in the next door building there, talking about "will the minesweeper get through to Misrata?" Well, I've now met the people that were sailing on it. We were [also] talking [in the bunker] about how HMS Liverpool is getting on trying to stop Gaddafi in Tripoli – I've now met, not only the captain of that ship, but he's very kindly given me my proudest possession, one of the shell casings that was fired in anger that is now going to be an umbrella stand in the Cameron household."
It's good to know that Mr Cameron will have such a prominent reminder of the importance of Naval Gunfire Support, provided so bravely by a destroyer more than 30 years old that is destined to be decommissioned this spring.
It symbolises so much about today's Royal Navy – making the best of what it has left, using old, but obviously regularly refurbished, ships and applying warfare skills that lack the sheer glamour of the RAF's jet fighters, but actually possibly achieve just as much, if not more. Of course Devonport-based frigates also fired their guns at Gaddafi targets, while the Plymouth-based submarine Triumph launched missiles, too, while Ocean – which will this summer sit on the Thames at Greenwich to provide a security hub for the London Olympics – made up for the lack of Harriers and a strike carrier by launching those Apache helicopter gunships and Sea King Mk7 command and control 'copters (operated by the Fleet Air Arm's Cornish aviators).
This year sees the 30th anniversary of the most amazing naval victory the British have achieved since the end of WW2, the Falklands War, but apparently the Senior Service is intent on making the error of not making that much of its amazing feat of arms. The RN is modest, to a fault, especially as the RAF, which in reality played a minor role in the war of 1982, is said to be leading the Falklands 30 events on behalf of the MoD. That RAF will, as it always does, make a huge amount of PR out of its comparatively small achievements in the Falklands War.
However, perhaps events will force the Royal Navy into the limelight again, for the Argentineans are still keen on possessing those windswept South Atlantic islands, not least because of the oil and gas fields potentially to be found in their waters. They have orchestrated their allies in Latin America to assist in what amounts to the initiation of an attempt to impose a maritime embargo on the Falklands, while Argentinean naval vessels have already been challenging ships. The best means to counter such passive-aggressive action is to deliver a frigate or destroyer riposte, but if there is one thing the Navy of 2012 lacks it is just those sorts of ships. As no less than Admiral Lord Horatio Nelson once wailed: "Were I to die this moment, 'Want of Frigates' would be found stamped on my heart."
When he contemplates his new umbrella stand will the Prime Minister finally understand the egregious error of cutting Devonport's Type 22 frigates and the UK not building enough new destroyers? Possibly, but the last time a Tory Prime Minister had to be shown the error of cutting the Navy by events in the South Atlantic it costs hundreds of lives. Let's hope 2012 is not as bloody.
Unsurpisingly the author of said article isn't named! And who would want to put their name to that...while some of what he/she says is true (and it's not the achievements of the RN in the last year which I am doubting), the repeated whining about RAF PR is plain embarrassing! And the author clearly doesn't know too much about the Navy PR machine...
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It seems a fairly low brow piece to me.
My only point would be to raise the fact that carrier strike as/was (GR9 and CVS) like its unexpected successor (AH and LPH) was a Joint capability whose passing has been debated ad infinitum (naseum) and appears to be mourned by most. The UK, not the RN, lost a capability. One could actually argue that the RN side of things is still in place - after all we still have a CVS bobbing about (possibly not the correct term) somewhere that is more than capable of embarking jets. The jets appear to have flown west.
Are all bagmen really Cornish? That would explain a lot. I'm convinced I spoke to one once with a brogue from far higher latitudes.
My only point would be to raise the fact that carrier strike as/was (GR9 and CVS) like its unexpected successor (AH and LPH) was a Joint capability whose passing has been debated ad infinitum (naseum) and appears to be mourned by most. The UK, not the RN, lost a capability. One could actually argue that the RN side of things is still in place - after all we still have a CVS bobbing about (possibly not the correct term) somewhere that is more than capable of embarking jets. The jets appear to have flown west.
Are all bagmen really Cornish? That would explain a lot. I'm convinced I spoke to one once with a brogue from far higher latitudes.
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WEBF are you still dripping on here about all things navy? You did not even have the nous to join the organisation before getting booted out in training. Wind your neck in and get on with whatever it is you do in the real world, because just about every prediction you have given over the years has turned out to be complete rubbish.
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Just watching the HoC Backbench Defence debate from my sickbed 
The 24 Coalition members including the SoS and 9 members of the Opposition benches defines the level of standing that defence now has, indeed one member reminded the House that not long ago there used to be 3 government Defence debates a year. Those who spoke, especially on the opposition side, did ask challenging questions, which do need to be answered honestly, sadly SoS spoke like a politician; more transformation to come
The 24 Coalition members including the SoS and 9 members of the Opposition benches defines the level of standing that defence now has, indeed one member reminded the House that not long ago there used to be 3 government Defence debates a year. Those who spoke, especially on the opposition side, did ask challenging questions, which do need to be answered honestly, sadly SoS spoke like a politician; more transformation to come