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Old 6th Oct 2017, 21:28   #1 (permalink)


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Join Date: Oct 2017
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EK training a disgrace

After viewing the latest Dusseldorf cross wind landing I cannot help but wonder if those two pilots wished they had more cross wind landing practice. But when did they last get the chance?
In EK when the rare opportunity arises at the end of a sim to do "something of your choice" like EO or cross wind landings most overwhelmingly say NO due the risk. This is a disgraceful shame!
I think the training department is rotten to the core from the top down in its philosophy and ethics.
Apart from a ďfew good menĒ a complete overhaul is the first step to stop this negative trend on the line.
We need access to MFTD/SIM and ECAM/ICAS software. I would even pay for it myself as a proffessional. We need training!!!
How can you be efficient in such a dynamic and expansive environment with 3 hours of simulator checking time? Itís impossible.
Reading a manual and realism training are two different things. There is no substitute for real exposure.
If reading the manual was the solution to a dynamic real-life situation the military would not conduct live exercises but would sit on their laptop and ďlearnĒ how to fight a war.
What is happening in EK defies all the fundamentals of sound training logic and somehow, itís been allowed to continue. Itís a travesty of justice and a crying shame.
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Old 7th Oct 2017, 17:35   #2 (permalink)
 
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So let's get this right..
We reduce the recurrent training hours into three hour rushed sims, and tag the manual handling day onto day1/2 so trainees are so exhausted by the third session that nothing sinks in (especially the deep night sessions).
On top of that, introduce pay per duty for new trainers, meaning mostly 400 hour wonders join the training department. Drive away the experienced trainers because of overwork. Throw in a few fairly new DECs into the standards department. Get rid of all the experienced ground trainers and replace them with keen but inexperienced GSFIs. Add in FO SFIs.

Throw into the mix, less and less experienced joiners to replace all the experience leaving.

Then when it all starts to go wrong, it's the pilots who get the blame. And the guy who pushed it all through is now on the warpath to get rid of the useless pilots who are making all the mistakes. Awesome.
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Old 7th Oct 2017, 19:26   #3 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
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So well said. No training, only punishment. Where the hell on earth is there a school where you take the test before the lecture? Beat them harder. But then they are so tired they don't even fight back any more. Word gets out so no one qualified comes any more. If they do they are increasingly under qualified. It is not rocket science. 10 years ago we had minimal if any "incidents". Now they are daily.
Why? No training. Threats/punishment culture has escalated to absurdity leading to crew second guessing their decisions for fear of reprisal and make panic decisions. Ridiculous, cumulative, deadly fatigue. Absolute exhaustion, fear of reprisal, and absolutely no training except for the rare trainer who has the interest/time or energy to give a few tips in the sim.
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Old 7th Oct 2017, 19:36   #4 (permalink)
 
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Not defending current policy or this debacle for one minute but perhaps some reality and fact before we all start getting our knickers in a twist.

Very few airlines offer a manual handling session. We get two per year and something that I personally support. It is this opportunity to fly the aircraft that should see us avoid events such as Dusseldorf. It's BECAUSE of flying like that, we find ourselves in the position of 6 hours extra sim per year. These sessions are not graded but they are assessed. And why shouldn't it be. If a trainer saw an individual attempt to land the aircraft in such a heavy handed and uncoordinated manner, would it not be right to recommend him or her for some extra remedial training? I think our fare paying customers would expect so and surely, as a professional pilot, seeing that landing so would you. That could have had your family onboard. On day 3, The 380 phase 2 already has a basic modes short flight for the crew to practice and familiarise themselves with basic mode flying, no A/P and no A/T. Day 2 will also incorporate another handling session from 1st October. From 1st February, Day 3 will move backward by 3 months so that every three months we'll be in the sim. Partly to spread the effect of training and also in response to feedback on the tiring 3 day consecutive sims, especially at night as Kamelchaser mentions.

However, a training day should be exactly that. Training. There's absolutely no point in having glossy posters all around the training college promising a confident, non threatening environment in which to learn when the majority may feel the opposite. An experienced trainer should recognise the mistakes and correct them. If it needs to be done on numerous occasions, so be it. If that trainer feels that the standard has been met at the end of the session but it took considerable input to achieve it, then the trainee should be brought back within a shorter timeframe for another 'training' event. Whether we like it or not, our profession requires us to be tested and to reach a minimum safe standard. If you can't accept that basic philosophy then you're in the wrong game. When the engine blows for real on a dark and stormy night, we get one chance and one chance only to get it right. There's no flight freeze in the real World.

And while the concern about training standards and the reducing experience levels is a valid one, I also think some of the problem lies with the pilot community in general. Despite the policy of allowing hand flown departures and arrivals below 10,000ft, very few do. Why? Because they're 'scared' of screwing up and ending up in the office. Yet so many recent events have involved aircraft with the autopilot and automatics fully engaged. Ironically, if more people decided to use automation less, not only would their skills improve but the PM might actually wake up instead of sitting there with fingers up backside. F/O's are flying with Captains who resist their requests to hand fly. They never single engine taxi, they always use full reverse. They never go to max altitude because 'it's dangerous', they screw up VNAV approaches and struggle to do basic 3 times table arithmetic.

But, and here's the rub, at the end of the flight we're all so quick to shake hands and say what a wonderful job we've done, regardless of whether we have or haven't. Sadly, many F/O's will never know because most Captains will never tell them, nor do most F/O's request such feedback. It's not in our culture within the airline to do so. Nobody wants to get a 'reputation' for being the bad guy. Yet, that's how we learn, from others.

Many individuals post regularly about how EK management is at fault yet are completely blinkered when it comes to their own management on the flight deck. We don't need to be trainers to pass on information that one day may prove useful to the spotty kid in the right seat when he transitions to the left.

It may be that same kid landing you into Dusseldorf while you enjoy your retirement sat in 1A. Think about it!

Harry
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Old 7th Oct 2017, 22:46   #5 (permalink)
 
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Acryingshame. Most guys I have in the SIM ask to do extra stuff if time is available.
Perhaps it's your intestinal fortitude that is holding you back?
The 380 upgrade candidates have maybe been getting 1 to 2 landings per month from their time of joining the fleet. They have very little experience to fall back on. The low time Captains, now LTC or TRI have also been doing 1 to 2 landings per month. They also don't have a whole bunch of experience to pass on. Times have changed and command training is not keeping up. Reducing line sectors in training may save money, but a good pilot it does not make. We reduced the experience required for joining pilots 7 to 8 years ago. But have never changed the training footprint to give them the extra they needed. Line training sectors have halved from what we had in the early 2000s, as has the hours/experience of new joiners. Anyone see a problem here?
Harry is right. When I joined there were plenty of crusty old bastards flying in the left seat with a wealth of experience. They never left you in any doubt of your performance. They would also turn the FDs and autothrottles off when you were downwind runway 12 and ask for the visual when you were pilot flying. Now when I fly a departure out of DXB I am asked if I want to engage the autopilot as we near a level off altitude.
Captains need to mentor FOs on more that just camera settings when taking a selfie. This mentoring isn't a bad thing. You are helping a colleague and it helps yourself as well. Training only sees a line pilot for 6 sessions per 12 months. As a captain you may see more sectors/events with the same FO during one pattern. You will be more exposed to his/her weaknesses and strengths. You are not doing anyone any favours if you let weak performance go unnoticed. Be it a debriefing over a beer, or advice enroute. If they don't like your advice they can "OIC", but they will still reflect on it (pilot personality type makes us do that) and that is still a good outcome.
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Old 8th Oct 2017, 03:46   #6 (permalink)
 
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Be it a debriefing over a beer, or advice enroute. If they don't like your advice they can "OIC", but they will still reflect on it (pilot personality type makes us do that) and that is still a good outcome.
The ones who would most desperately need advice will:

- not turn up for a beer
- not listen to your debrief enroute, because planted their nose in the iPhone
- they will not oic, but write you up for bad crm, sop etc.
- not reflect on it, because they think they are great

It's not only their fault. We old farts definitely have let it go and became tired. To a certain extent harry has a point. However creating a learning environment is first and foremost the responsibility of the company. If you listen to the tooyoungtopshottrainers when they boast that EBT means when you're safe and efficient it's a pass and we can discuss the things to improve, only to refuse the signature the first day for a perfect ovwt landing under mayday, 1 eng out with an extinguished fire and cat3, then they perfectly encompass the bs gap between what is boasted from all management and training levels and what happens in the sim.

Today EK's EBT is seen on youtube, read in the boulevard press and in our weekly incident report, if not censored. It's a [email protected]@dy shame and home-made.
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Old 8th Oct 2017, 05:32   #7 (permalink)
 
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If you don't do anything Glo you are part of the problem.

So it would seem EK pilots are only critical of other EK pilots when on anonymous forums.
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Old 8th Oct 2017, 05:34   #8 (permalink)
 
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If that trainer feels that the standard has been met at the end of the session but it took considerable input to achieve it, then the trainee should be brought back within a shorter timeframe for another 'training' event.
And this is where training has to become a check. The apologists will suggest the trainee has met the standard but it was the instructor who dragged them over the line. They can't go back out and practise on the ice cream licking public, they need to be 'failed' for want of another word, then retrained.
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Old 8th Oct 2017, 06:13   #9 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
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Training ????
What training ?
All you get is CHECKING, period !
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Old 8th Oct 2017, 07:37   #10 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
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I think at this stage letís all thank God that this flight ended up safely! I personally think that TREs and instructors not to be blamed for our mistakes, they rigorously follow Training department and Higher Management coursework and orders.

We all can talk and pin point others mistakes, but will you accept the opposite?
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Old 8th Oct 2017, 09:54   #11 (permalink)
 
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If you don't do anything Glo you are part of the problem.
So it would seem EK pilots are only critical of other EK pilots when on anonymous forums.
You are perfectly right, don.

Now the really interesting question is ..... Why would that be so??
I think the solution to most EK problems lie in that answer, if answered honestly.

We line pilots have long lost any power to counter the erosion in flight safety. Most of us just try to cover our own flights, and by the way always check the crew if our family want to fly ......
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Old 8th Oct 2017, 10:21   #12 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
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Anybody know if anything has been done against the two EK pilots on EK55? EK spokesperson's comments, "At no point was the passenger safety comprised" is great sugarcoating!
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Old 8th Oct 2017, 10:36   #13 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Monarch Man View Post
Harry, Don, Glo, all good points and it gets to the heart of the matter and yet, as I sit here in Dubai after having faced yet another colleague in the right seat that was neither willing nor I suspect capable of landing on the centreline inside the touchdown zone without significant prompting or should I say directing I'm left wondering what this fella was actually trained? Worse yet, when I asked him what he thought he had the temerity to suggest that it was all going nicely until "the last few hundred feet" to which I replied that's the bit that you are supposed to get right.
Perhaps as was alluded too previously the crusty old farts in the LHS regardless of the company are going to have to step up and maybe bruise a few over inflated egos, but last time I checked we don't run a daycare centre and it's interesting to note that the fragile ones tend to also be the most over confident.
Lastly with respect to day 3, having reasonably recently completed it I had pause for thought regarding the non-assessed but assessed "training". Essentially the TRI started his brief with what amounted to a threat regarding if we weren't up to standard he would have no problem "busting" us back to do more training. I let it go at the time but I'm mightily pissed off now that I did given the environment that is supposed to be fostered, and before anyone asks he wasn't an Ozzie either.
Monach,
That day 3 trainer has no problem writing you up if you have a bad day. So to you can write him up on if he is not providing the expected service. There is no way anyone knows about this unless it is reported in the feed back form they send after recurrent training is complete. I know it's a pain in the arse, but it won't be fixed unless it's reported. It has worked in the past.
If you have grave doubts on the capability of your number two, let ya training manager know. And you are right, the last few hundred feet are the important ones. You are not expected to be a flight instructor and carry these guys. But unless someone points them out they will not get the extra training they need.

Gloie, it's all well and good checking crews before you travel. But let's hope you never have a incapacitating event when flying with one.
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Old 8th Oct 2017, 10:36   #14 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glorified Dus Briver View Post
Anybody know if anything has been done against the two EK pilots on EK55? EK spokesperson's comments, "At no point was the passenger safety comprised" is great sugarcoating!
Was upgrade training, so instructor at the controls too.

They have removed the skillful pilot from his roster........ must be as a "thank you" 😱
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Old 8th Oct 2017, 10:48   #15 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Flyboy010 View Post
I think at this stage letís all thank God that this flight ended up safely! I personally think that TREs and instructors not to be blamed for our mistakes, they rigorously follow Training department and Higher Management coursework and orders.

We all can talk and pin point others mistakes, but will you accept the opposite?
Culture like this is from the top down in organisations. From the very top.
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Old 8th Oct 2017, 11:11   #16 (permalink)
 
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I don't see how access to MFTD or ECAM/EICAS software could improve your crosswind landings. But maybe you were making a generic statement...
I've been here almost 20 years and I don't think recurrent training and checking has changed much. Someone here complained that we do the check on the first day. I prefer this and when we switched most pilots said they liked it too. We now have 3 hour sims but still more sim time than 20 years ago, so it's an improvement. I now prefer 3 hour sims because I'm less tired towards the end. I think manual handling is great. I show up prepared for my check and generally do quite well. I wish the newer first officers would do the same (not all mind you, but certainly far more than in previous years) I spend most of the cruise time trying to learn something new... about the aircraft and my job, not the latest on instagram. I never had issues with trainers... Probably because I come prepared. I think Training has improved over the years. The quality of the joining pilot has decreased. I don't blame the new joining pilot though. I blame management for dropping our requirements otherwise no one would join.... Their fault
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Old 8th Oct 2017, 12:36   #17 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by maggot View Post
Culture like this is from the top down in organisations. From the very top.
Very observant maggot
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Old 8th Oct 2017, 12:50   #18 (permalink)
 
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New code is now "removed from roster by YouTube"
Eau de Boeing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th Oct 2017, 13:51   #19 (permalink)
 
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I totally agree however EK is my third major airline and not one has ever offered any sort of "training" in the simulator, always check check check. Every time I am asked if I want to do anything else my answer is always NO, has been for years already.

Yes EK training is far from ideal but it is for every other airline too, at least the ones I have had the displeasure of working for. Sadly the original intended purpose of the simulator, which was TRAINING, has been twisted and beaten into what it is today. Incredibly sad and no wonder why all of this shit is happening.
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Old 8th Oct 2017, 13:53   #20 (permalink)
 
Join Date: May 2005
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People screw up! All the training in the world will never eliminate that fact. In the military they train all the time in high energy situations but people still screw up. Training is about reducing, not eliminating operational risk.

It was a firm touchdown followed by a PIO once on the ground. Many of the guys have been struggling with the inertia of the big jets (even the light twin) and try to fly them like 320/737s rather than directing them like an oil tanker. The action/reaction loop just isn't that tight; corrections take time to take effect.

Looking at the rudder in the video, whoever was flying demonstrated poor technique which can certainly be improved by training and the risk reduced but even then...it doesn't mean it won't happen again,.
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