EK / Seychelles near miss - 14 July '17
Pretty much.
Mos, you neglected to mention...
British pilots are better than Ozzie ones...
Every A380 pilot is short...and they practise saying Thsupa in the shower...
and lastly...I'm told, Harry wears his hat around spinneys...
British pilots are better than Ozzie ones...
Every A380 pilot is short...and they practise saying Thsupa in the shower...
and lastly...I'm told, Harry wears his hat around spinneys...
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Dubai
Age: 55
Posts: 313
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Monarch Man,
As a super pilot, I should be offended but that was pretty funny
Icarus2001,
In fairness to the other guys, I had to reread your post about TA's 3 times before I understood what you said.....and I am a level 6 native english speaker. If so many people misinterpret your message, you need to examine it. Remember that the sender also shares responsibility for receipt of a message. Wasn't that the root cause of this incident...........
As a super pilot, I should be offended but that was pretty funny
Icarus2001,
In fairness to the other guys, I had to reread your post about TA's 3 times before I understood what you said.....and I am a level 6 native english speaker. If so many people misinterpret your message, you need to examine it. Remember that the sender also shares responsibility for receipt of a message. Wasn't that the root cause of this incident...........
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Dubai - sand land.
Age: 55
Posts: 2,831
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Monarch Man
Every A380 pilot is short
Harry. Have a beer and relax man! I'm amazed to hear that someone has actually looked at the 'Uniform Manual'
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Dusty West
Age: 53
Posts: 625
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So what we've parsed out is that...
Round dial grey beards are sky kings (we all knew that)
ATC has a responsibility to listen and understand as much as we do, good luck with that.
These young whippersnappers can't fly for s#it with all their iPros, goPhones and that damn rock and roll #pilotlife #livingthedream
Your are incapable of being professional in a comfy onesy
Seychelles pilots are g*ddamn heroes
Airbus is a far superior aircraft to Boeing, however...
Boeing pilots are clearly superior airmen (just ask them)
Aussies invented aviation and are still imparting their extensive knowledge base you each of us one sim at a time (oh I see sir, thank you for that delicious morsel of trivia, I'm a far better man and my life is richer for having known you)
If everyone would just read Fate is the Hunter, it would solve all the world's aviation woes.
Does that about cover everything in this thread?
Round dial grey beards are sky kings (we all knew that)
ATC has a responsibility to listen and understand as much as we do, good luck with that.
These young whippersnappers can't fly for s#it with all their iPros, goPhones and that damn rock and roll #pilotlife #livingthedream
Your are incapable of being professional in a comfy onesy
Seychelles pilots are g*ddamn heroes
Airbus is a far superior aircraft to Boeing, however...
Boeing pilots are clearly superior airmen (just ask them)
Aussies invented aviation and are still imparting their extensive knowledge base you each of us one sim at a time (oh I see sir, thank you for that delicious morsel of trivia, I'm a far better man and my life is richer for having known you)
If everyone would just read Fate is the Hunter, it would solve all the world's aviation woes.
Does that about cover everything in this thread?
Upping the dosage of your meds might be helpful!
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Dusty West
Age: 53
Posts: 625
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Damn...I thought it said "Unicorn Manual" Like so many of the other company manuals which don't exist for any real reason, like the Employee manual and that other equally elusive manual that contains the pay scales!
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Dusty West
Age: 53
Posts: 625
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
AMF will give you a 3 on RT unless you pronounce it "Thoooper" There is a procedural upward tonal inflection starting at the second "o" which carries up to the "r" which is held for 1.5 seconds at 2 octaves above a "male" voice most probably found in San Francisco!
The correct procedure calls for the use of hair gel, an operation in Bangkok, and a keen interest in watching college wrestling.
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Permanent JET LAGGG
Posts: 206
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry to all those contributors who think that we all should shut up and wait for any investigation results, unless being branded arrogant or flying gods etc.
I guess you have not listened to the tape correctly. Go back and listen to it from 00:40, where the clearance to FL380 (typo earlier, sorry) was issued and wrongly read back.
So far so good, this can happen. But from 01:00 to 01:51, there is very clear evidence of no sa, or whatever you want to call it. During these 50” both aircraft are contacted by the same controller in very short time and both precisely informed about a crossing traffic. The EK flight even acknowledges the traffic information (after a first non reading). At that time all the bells definitely should go off, when ATC informs you directly about a crossing traffic, with the precise time, and indication of the cleared level of the other aircraft, -> climbing to 370 and yourself you are cleared to descend to 360!!! Subsequently the Seychelles flight also gets the traffic information. They acknowledged as well, checked and intervened.
I leave it to anyone listening to the recording to choose with whom of those three you’d like to share the same dense flight environment. The ATC controller, Air Seychelles crew or our 380 crew? My choice is quickly made and I don’t need any investigator outlining to me what was heard or not heard on the air that night. We all know that investigations can be as biased as our own view of incidents. It seems pretty obvious here and that’s why I think that it is neither arrogant nor running to conclusion to state an opinion on here, at this time.
I guess you have not listened to the tape correctly. Go back and listen to it from 00:40, where the clearance to FL380 (typo earlier, sorry) was issued and wrongly read back.
So far so good, this can happen. But from 01:00 to 01:51, there is very clear evidence of no sa, or whatever you want to call it. During these 50” both aircraft are contacted by the same controller in very short time and both precisely informed about a crossing traffic. The EK flight even acknowledges the traffic information (after a first non reading). At that time all the bells definitely should go off, when ATC informs you directly about a crossing traffic, with the precise time, and indication of the cleared level of the other aircraft, -> climbing to 370 and yourself you are cleared to descend to 360!!! Subsequently the Seychelles flight also gets the traffic information. They acknowledged as well, checked and intervened.
I leave it to anyone listening to the recording to choose with whom of those three you’d like to share the same dense flight environment. The ATC controller, Air Seychelles crew or our 380 crew? My choice is quickly made and I don’t need any investigator outlining to me what was heard or not heard on the air that night. We all know that investigations can be as biased as our own view of incidents. It seems pretty obvious here and that’s why I think that it is neither arrogant nor running to conclusion to state an opinion on here, at this time.
Once was lost, but now I'm found.
Did you hear what the crew heard IN the FD? Or are you basing your (idiotic) opinion based on a tape?
All pilots must bow to your expertise. Where can I buy your book?
Last edited by CaptainChipotle; 22nd Jul 2017 at 09:15.
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: T.C.
Age: 55
Posts: 273
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Really interesting read this, I am an ATCO, ex Dubai, currently Gatwick Approach.
My ATC perspective is controller error caused by a missed read back. Yep the passing of traffic information was good and should of enabled the crews to form a mental picture of the traffic situation and re-affirm their clearances. However that is not their job, unfortunately mistakes happen, and this is what this was.
Controllers leaning point, listen to read backs. Pilots learning point, try and be aware of the traffic picture, and if doubt question your clearance.
Am sure the ATCO will be beating himself up over this, in the end it was his error.
My ATC perspective is controller error caused by a missed read back. Yep the passing of traffic information was good and should of enabled the crews to form a mental picture of the traffic situation and re-affirm their clearances. However that is not their job, unfortunately mistakes happen, and this is what this was.
Controllers leaning point, listen to read backs. Pilots learning point, try and be aware of the traffic picture, and if doubt question your clearance.
Am sure the ATCO will be beating himself up over this, in the end it was his error.
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Essex
Posts: 55
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There s a 777 skipper at EK who in a previous job flying for an Asian cargo operator had an emergency landing and precautionary disembarkation on the runway in Germany. All 4 pilots still in pyjamas. Initially charged with endangering the safety of the RFF as they didn't know who the flight crew were and also went into the aircraft to search for said flight crew. A consequence of this charge could have been having flying licences revoked in Europe and Asia.
I don't allow flying in Pj's on my flights. As Harry says it's unprofessional and you have no time to change in the event of a diversion
I don't allow flying in Pj's on my flights. As Harry says it's unprofessional and you have no time to change in the event of a diversion
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: South of North
Posts: 655
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
LivingInthedream - I never said the SEY crew should maneuver and assume that the TCAS was not functioning correctly. I do not know WHAT they saw but they did feel that maneuvering was the safest course of action. They know the airspace has very little traffic. They likely, like myself, may have NO trust in ANY air traffic unit in Africa. They felt the situation warranted action and followed it.
No they are not heroes. It appears they did what they felt they had to do. So good work.
No they are not heroes. It appears they did what they felt they had to do. So good work.
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: London
Posts: 65
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There s a 777 skipper at EK who in a previous job flying for an Asian cargo operator had an emergency landing and precautionary disembarkation on the runway in Germany. All 4 pilots still in pyjamas. Initially charged with endangering the safety of the RFF as they didn't know who the flight crew were and also went into the aircraft to search for said flight crew. A consequence of this charge could have been having flying licences revoked in Europe and Asia.
I don't allow flying in Pj's on my flights. As Harry says it's unprofessional and you have no time to change in the event of a diversion
I don't allow flying in Pj's on my flights. As Harry says it's unprofessional and you have no time to change in the event of a diversion
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: UAE
Posts: 1,026
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bit of thread creep going on here, but anyway....
For most ULR ops most of the time there is loads of time to get changed, have a cup of tea and read the papers during a diversion- for large parts of the routes a diversion can be measured in hours, even for a "land asap".
For most ULR ops most of the time there is loads of time to get changed, have a cup of tea and read the papers during a diversion- for large parts of the routes a diversion can be measured in hours, even for a "land asap".
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: MIDDLE EAST
Posts: 1,035
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Events such as these are not uncommon. Reading the weekly ASR reports will reveal the frequency of such incidents.
Whilst good to generate healthy discussion on these forums, many are turning judge and jury without being in possession of all the pieces of the jigsaw. The fact that the EK crew have been removed from roster does not imply they're to blame for this event. It is normal for any crew involved in an incident such as this to be removed pending investigation. It's not a procedure unique to EK.
Thread drift? That wasn't the intention as many are missing the point regarding previous posts. Most of the discussions revolved around the event itself. My input was the possible deep rooted causal factor. It may or may not have been an issue in this case but if so, reflects a noticeable change in flight deck attitude within the last few years. It's not just one individual act that defines are professionalism, but a combination. What you do, what you wear, how you behave, that's entirely up to you. However, those actions have consequences. Whether we like it or not, we set the tone and are role models for the crew, both in front of and behind the door. You can't just decide on a daily basis how to behave. It's a mindset that sets your own professional compass and filters down to every other person on the crew. Contrary to previous comments, promoting high professional standards and being a nice guy to fly with are not mutually exclusive!
As for wearing the hat in Spinneys MM, you'll see me in Carrefour. Without a pay rise this year, Spinneys is banned!
Mos hit the nail on the head, I'll leave it there with this thread.
Harry
Whilst good to generate healthy discussion on these forums, many are turning judge and jury without being in possession of all the pieces of the jigsaw. The fact that the EK crew have been removed from roster does not imply they're to blame for this event. It is normal for any crew involved in an incident such as this to be removed pending investigation. It's not a procedure unique to EK.
Thread drift? That wasn't the intention as many are missing the point regarding previous posts. Most of the discussions revolved around the event itself. My input was the possible deep rooted causal factor. It may or may not have been an issue in this case but if so, reflects a noticeable change in flight deck attitude within the last few years. It's not just one individual act that defines are professionalism, but a combination. What you do, what you wear, how you behave, that's entirely up to you. However, those actions have consequences. Whether we like it or not, we set the tone and are role models for the crew, both in front of and behind the door. You can't just decide on a daily basis how to behave. It's a mindset that sets your own professional compass and filters down to every other person on the crew. Contrary to previous comments, promoting high professional standards and being a nice guy to fly with are not mutually exclusive!
As for wearing the hat in Spinneys MM, you'll see me in Carrefour. Without a pay rise this year, Spinneys is banned!
Mos hit the nail on the head, I'll leave it there with this thread.
Harry
Join Date: Oct 1998
Location: OS
Age: 65
Posts: 190
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To 4HolerPoler
I hope there's nobody as cruel as you to post audio that can be open to misreading/listening and resulting in a keelhaul for the crew concerned!!
Take a chill-pill Groper - I merely copied an article from a global news-site. I hardly see that me posting a thread on PP has resulted in the crew ending up in the brown.
Take a chill-pill Groper - I merely copied an article from a global news-site. I hardly see that me posting a thread on PP has resulted in the crew ending up in the brown.
Not whilst operating but I recollect a statuesque brunette young lady FO who, unable to sleep, sat cross legged on the jump seat for a little while wearing her 'Baby doll' pyjamas
We WERE in the cruise and remained fully task orientated throughout.
We WERE in the cruise and remained fully task orientated throughout.
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: London
Posts: 65
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This one is for Harry. Never mind PJ's, crew members at their stations in non uniform items and even doing the walk around! It's a miracle they even got off the ground.
https://youtu.be/l7sny3Z3KrM
https://youtu.be/l7sny3Z3KrM