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EK / Seychelles near miss - 14 July '17

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EK / Seychelles near miss - 14 July '17

Old 21st Jul 2017, 06:00
  #81 (permalink)  
 
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There was 14km separation. The windsceen didn't fill up, no one was in imminent danger, there were no heroes saving the day. Stop with the dramatics and hysteria. There were 2 planes that passed each other with 14km between them. Every RA is closer than this but it's not in the news. Someone made a video and posted it in the hopes that the public would react the way it has and you lot are worse than a bunch of ladies gossiping over tea. Did you ever consider that the video may have been produced by the same entities that are trying to bring EK down by any means possible? This is a non event, stop feeding the frenzy.

Last edited by MosEisley; 21st Jul 2017 at 06:12.
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Old 21st Jul 2017, 06:12
  #82 (permalink)  
 
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Harry,

Agreed, huge strides have been made in the classroom and simulator for an improved experience. All sadly, completely outweighed, by draconian decisions about rosters and quality of life issues that affect pilots lives daily.
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Old 21st Jul 2017, 09:17
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This is a non event,
I agree there is some hysteria here but an incorrect readback that was itself missed leading to a TA is not a "non event". In Australia it is reportable so by definition...

14km at 1667 kmh takes about 30 seconds.

900 knots closing speed is 1667 kmh

no one was in imminent danger,
I disagree and so did the crew of at least one aircraft.
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Old 21st Jul 2017, 09:23
  #84 (permalink)  
 
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Tcas

It's funny how someone still only blame ATC ! Atc is sitting on a chair while we are flying the airplanes.
Of course he has his part of responsibility but at the end, we are the ones in charge of avoiding dangerous situations using all instruments we have, including our eyes, like the other airplane did, tcas and keeping our SA always alive.
We cannot only rely on others to pick up our mistakes.
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Old 21st Jul 2017, 12:00
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(Obsessive use of phones throughout all aspects of the flight, from briefing to hotel reception)

Ever thought that they're probably just sick of the sound your trumpet makes every time you blow into it and they're just looking to block you out.

You are right though it is a generational thing, your generation didn't have mobile phones and this generation does.
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Old 21st Jul 2017, 12:21
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Sorry to all those contributors who think that we all should shut up and wait for any investigation results, unless being branded arrogant or flying gods etc.

I guess you have not listened to the tape correctly. Go back and listen to it from 00:40, where the clearance to FL380 (typo earlier, sorry) was issued and wrongly read back.
So far so good, this can happen. But from 01:00 to 01:51, there is very clear evidence of no sa, or whatever you want to call it. During these 50” both aircraft are contacted by the same controller in very short time and both precisely informed about a crossing traffic. The EK flight even acknowledges the traffic information (after a first non reading). At that time all the bells definitely should go off, when ATC informs you directly about a crossing traffic, with the precise time, and indication of the cleared level of the other aircraft, -> climbing to 370 and yourself you are cleared to descend to 360!!! Subsequently the Seychelles flight also gets the traffic information. They acknowledged as well, checked and intervened.

I leave it to anyone listening to the recording to choose with whom of those three you’d like to share the same dense flight environment. The ATC controller, Air Seychelles crew or our 380 crew? My choice is quickly made and I don’t need any investigator outlining to me what was heard or not heard on the air that night. We all know that investigations can be as biased as our own view of incidents. It seems pretty obvious here and that’s why I think that it is neither arrogant nor running to conclusion to state an opinion on here, at this time.

Last edited by glofish; 21st Jul 2017 at 12:42.
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Old 21st Jul 2017, 12:22
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Check ICAO annex 11, section 3.7.3.1.2. It states "The controller shall listen to the read back to ascertain that the clearance or instruction has been correctly acknowledged by the flight crew and shall take immediate action to correct any discrepancies revealed by the read-back."

Pretty clear.

You assume they are all on the same frequency. The recording clearly states that it is a combination of several frequencies. Does anyone know for sure who was on which frequency? If so, please enlighten us with concrete proof. Otherwise, it looks like the controller missed the read back and that contributed to this 14km "close call."
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Old 21st Jul 2017, 12:38
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Originally Posted by glofish
I guess you have not listened to the tape correctly. Go back and listen to it from 00:40, where the clearance to FL360 was issued and wrongly read back.
I believe the clearance was to FL380, I think you did not listen well
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Old 21st Jul 2017, 12:39
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Mos, you are correct. The controller made this mistake, after the EK flight made their mistake in misreading the clearance.

He then gave extensive and precise traffic information to both aircraft. At that moment, the controller effectively corrected his mistake. EK acknowledged, but did not pick up the conflict, their mistake again.

Concerning being on the same frequency, if you listen to the recording attentively, it would seem that the indicators (voice, timeline) point very much to all three participants (controller, EK ,SEY) being on the same frequency, rather than the controller eventually speaking on two frequencies to two different aircraft crossing on the same airway.
But in all fairness, i cannot be sure, so you are correct again.

(arketip:typo! mine!)
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Old 21st Jul 2017, 12:58
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Thanks glo, but one more thing...

Issuing traffic information does not correct the clearance. Nor does ATC telling them what he expected them to do, by that time it was too late. The controllers failure to immediately correct the read back contributed directly to the event from a legal standpoint. The ability to hear or understand another aircraft's clearance is not a legal responsibly. Is it good practice? Of course, we all try to do that. However, we all know that isn't always possible in places like China, Russia, Italy, and France where they don't even speak English to all aircraft. Therefore, the argument that they were somehow liable because they may or may not have heard a clearance given to another aircraft just doesn't hold water.

The question here is legal liability. I'm not talking about procedures and common practice, only legal responsibly.
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Old 21st Jul 2017, 14:21
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OffSet

There are areas where Off Set is recommended / mandatory.
This surely is one region where. in climb and descent when there is conflicting traffic, offset R should be used.
Having flown this route many times I can say that ATC RT isn't ideal. There are zones of weak signal reception around TOD position inbound on this airway. Both Pilots and ATC have to repeat transmissions.
Also, with +30 yrs experience worldwide, I recommend treating any part of the world where ATC is non-radar equipped as non controlled airspace. Listen out and get a mental picture of traffic out bound and inbound.
Write down call signs, FL/Alt and ETAs etc.

Last edited by Capt Groper; 21st Jul 2017 at 14:29. Reason: Update
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Old 21st Jul 2017, 15:04
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When I first read about this incident I too was very quick to place the whole blame on the ek crew. Sure they got the ball rolling but ultimately it is the ATC's responsability to provide separation in an IFR environment. I'm not sure if they have radar in that part of the world but if they do what the hell was the controller watching on his screen because it looks like he only had two blips on it. At no stage did he challenge or issue corrective instructions and that's probably because his english is not the required level and is limited to standard RT, anything out of the ordinary and the words just don't come quick enough. If there is no radar coverage he should have never placed the two aircraft that close to each other whilst both maneuvering for altitude, no matter how many traffic information reports he passed on. No surprise why his supervisor was keen to sweep it under the carpet and not report the incident.

As for maneuvering for the TA I'm not sure that would have worked in IMC or at night or another continent and there is no guarantee that the actions of the Air Sey crew avoided avoided a mid air collision. Someone said in an earlier post that the TCAS might not work and it's best to take evasive action as you see fit, that could possibly be the worst advice for any modern jet pilot, not to trust your instruments.

Unfortunatelly for the ek crew they will be judged in the office by professionals who always wear their uniform correctly on the flight deck during all phases of flight, never use their phones in public and consider that aviation was safer a century ago.

Sent from my Iphone
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Old 21st Jul 2017, 16:41
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Originally Posted by Icarus2001
I agree there is some hysteria here but an incorrect readback that was itself missed leading to a TA is not a "non event". In Australia it is reportable so by definition...
A TA is reportable in Oz? Why can't they just be like the rest of the world and just report RAs? Ahhh....
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Old 21st Jul 2017, 16:56
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Cos it's more for your benefit than mine maaaaaate.
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Old 21st Jul 2017, 17:32
  #95 (permalink)  
 
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https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2017C00084

The link above suggests that a TA is NOT reportable in OZ.
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Old 21st Jul 2017, 23:33
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TA's are NOT reportable on Australia.

Back when I was flying there we had a **** load, never any paperwork required.

And for info...despite some of the ASR's we read, TA's are NOT reportable here in the desert either.


Eternity.
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Old 22nd Jul 2017, 02:46
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Read my post again s l o w l y. I did not say TAs are reportable in Australia, they are not.

Once again communication issues, reading comprehension and intended message get in the way.
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Old 22nd Jul 2017, 03:44
  #98 (permalink)  
 
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Speedbirdhopeful1

Pyjamas are provided for use during crew rest only. For the record, It clearly states so in the uniform handbook. The fact that the Company even has to mention it reflects the sad fact that there will always be a few individuals trying to interpret rules differently or push the boundaries. Does wearing your pj's reflect directly on ones flying abilities? Of course not, it makes cock all difference. However, it does send out a powerful message to both your colleague on the flight deck and the cabin crew. It's called professional standards. Do you sit there for 6 hours without a loo break or do you venture out in your pj's for a slash? Interesting to see what impression our first class passenger would have of his skipper wearing night attire. Just hope too that you never have a time critical emergency on board. Can't remember seeing in the QRH for 'crew to remove pyjamas and don uniform'. As long as you have the hat I guess that's good enough to take command and direct passengers during an evacuation or is the intention to quickly change while the evacuation's in full progress?

What's this got to do with the thread? Well, quite a lot. Stupid debates like this reflect a growing detachment and indifference to the job. A lassez faire, can't be bothered attitude. Why some individuals try to make things more complicated than they need to be is beyond me. Yes, we can do paperwork above FL200 but is it good airmanship? What's the hurry, you have all the cruise to do it. Is it not more important to monitor the aircraft? Most aircraft accidents are now attributed to loss of control, often caused by startle and incorrect recovery. Some of these accidents could have been easily avoided had the pilots been monitoring effectively, not just paying lip service to calls and procedures or intent on doing trivial tasks during a critical and important stage of the flights regime. Missing altimeter calls and ATC calls while doing paperwork is unacceptable. FFS, it's not as if we have that much to do in cruise anyway with the current generation of aircraft so is it really that difficult to sit on you hands for 20 minutes during climb and just monitor the friggin plane. Actively listening out for other traffic to enhance SA might be easier too if you are not heads down adding numbers!

You say you do not do this yourself. Great. But promoting high standards throughout sends a powerful message to those who, in five years from now, will be setting the professional tone and climate in the cockpit too.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Behaviour breeds behaviour.

Harry

Livinginthedream

Obviously hit a raw nerve about uniforms and phones. My apologies. You are absolutely correct in that phones should be made available throughout our sign on to sign off and you should be free to wear the uniform (the clue is in the name) how you like. My generation are just so old fashioned, it's embarrassing. Safe flying son.

Last edited by harry the cod; 22nd Jul 2017 at 04:25.
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Old 22nd Jul 2017, 04:49
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And we wonder why there are so many rules at this place and why they had to introduce an age limit for command.
Was told by a trainer recently that the new joiner on a training flight was connecting his gopro to the window during preflight. When asked why he stated he always flew with it recording. It would seem that SA and CDF are things of the past. Perhaps livinthedream can make an app explaining them?
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Old 22nd Jul 2017, 06:10
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So what we've parsed out is that...

Round dial grey beards are sky kings (we all knew that)

ATC has a responsibility to listen and understand as much as we do, good luck with that.

These young whippersnappers can't fly for s#it with all their iPros, goPhones and that damn rock and roll #pilotlife #livingthedream

Your are incapable of being professional in a comfy onesy

Seychelles pilots are g*ddamn heroes

Airbus is a far superior aircraft to Boeing, however...

Boeing pilots are clearly superior airmen (just ask them)

Aussies invented aviation and are still imparting their extensive knowledge base you each of us one sim at a time (oh I see sir, thank you for that delicious morsel of trivia, I'm a far better man and my life is richer for having known you)

If everyone would just read Fate is the Hunter, it would solve all the world's aviation woes.

Does that about cover everything in this thread?

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