b727 line training..whats you idea?
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Ok its nice that you are worry about proficiency of guys like me that want to pay for my training.but i like to say before every contraction and payments i should pass an exam and interview.and i think these programs name is line training instead of p2f
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Ah, here we go again with a P2F or SSTR pilot blaming senior guys for the P2F contract that they signed, despite the senior guys advising them not to. Exactly what was the senior pilot group meant to do about it, Kite? You blame them for not defending terms and conditions, but it is the P2F guys that helped the managers undercut the old conditions, bringing down the Ts and Cs for the entire industry. Why no pay rises in modern years? Because starry eyed dreamers are always willing to undercut us.
The actual pilots who started devaluing themselves and the profession by paying for their training years ago are already up their respective career ladders - how is it in anyway the fault of those who want to start training today that they started a precedent that is now too late to do anything about. It is too late, paying is already the norm ... it is too late to do anything about it now, the time was years ago. And I never plan to do P2F as I said, but in a few years I will not be surprised if that becomes the norm the same way just paying for the TR is the norm today ... but I'm currently one of those refusing to do a P2F scheme. There are however many ex P2F pilots in EK from what I'm told ...
Last edited by Officer Kite; 12th Jan 2017 at 13:29.
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OK, good for you for not signing up for P2F. But you're still blaming the older generation for the existence of P2F or SSTR, whilst signing up for SSTR and thus condoning it. The older generation had no way to stop what new generations signed up to, most don't even know what you guys are signing.
Your contracts are between you and the employer, and absolutely nothing to do with older pilots, so I ask again, what do you think they should have done to stop it if the present generation are willing to throw their money at the airlines and sign up for blatantly illegal and immoral contracts? If you lot stop agreeing to these ridiculous practices, guess what? The airlines will have to return to paying for type ratings again!
There is nothing unreasonable about proportional bonds, with realistic time limits and pro-rata reductions, but forcing new staff into crippling debt so that they can't afford to lose their job and become weak yes-men is plain wrong, and on that we agree completely, but don't point fingers at folk who were not only not involved, but have also suffered significant erosion in terms and conditions because of the "I want it now" attitude of youngsters too impatient to climb the professional ladder the old way.
Your contracts are between you and the employer, and absolutely nothing to do with older pilots, so I ask again, what do you think they should have done to stop it if the present generation are willing to throw their money at the airlines and sign up for blatantly illegal and immoral contracts? If you lot stop agreeing to these ridiculous practices, guess what? The airlines will have to return to paying for type ratings again!
There is nothing unreasonable about proportional bonds, with realistic time limits and pro-rata reductions, but forcing new staff into crippling debt so that they can't afford to lose their job and become weak yes-men is plain wrong, and on that we agree completely, but don't point fingers at folk who were not only not involved, but have also suffered significant erosion in terms and conditions because of the "I want it now" attitude of youngsters too impatient to climb the professional ladder the old way.
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I want to make it clear I agree with you on eroding Ts and Cs, and believe you in me I am not happy about it. But do I have any other choice? The answer is unfortunately not really. I'm not blaming or seeking to point fingers. However what I am saying is it annoys me when we all get looked down on as people ruining the profession by paying to train when this is something that is now the norm because people well before our time allowed it to become so.
I would love to take the moral high ground, reject the offer to fly an orange bus and let them pay for my training ... but the reality is they will not care ... not when they had over 5000 applications. That's 4999 other people more than willing to give their cash. Quite simply if I don't pay, well there is no shortage of people who will. It won't achieve an awful lot and I'll just be wasting time. And one thing you may notice, is the large application numbers, for a scheme costing £100,500. It is actually very competitive. So we are still quite some numbers away from being in any sort of a position to take that moral ground. They are by no means short of people willing to pay.
This is the thing, it did not start with the present generation. The reason the present generation are in this situation of having to pay is because it is what has been the case for a few years now ... it was set by those before us, our fate was sealed. To answer your question, most pilots I come across tend to not really care about the training side of things once they've made it where they want to be (not that they're wrong in doing that) ... maybe if pilots were more vocal in their airlines about charging for TRs the airline would have stopped ... cos they certainly won't listen to applicants.
I would love to take the moral high ground, reject the offer to fly an orange bus and let them pay for my training ... but the reality is they will not care ... not when they had over 5000 applications. That's 4999 other people more than willing to give their cash. Quite simply if I don't pay, well there is no shortage of people who will. It won't achieve an awful lot and I'll just be wasting time. And one thing you may notice, is the large application numbers, for a scheme costing £100,500. It is actually very competitive. So we are still quite some numbers away from being in any sort of a position to take that moral ground. They are by no means short of people willing to pay.
so I ask again, what do you think they should have done to stop it if the present generation are willing to throw their money at the airlines and sign up for blatantly illegal and immoral contracts?
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OK, Kite, I think you are peeved at those who took the P2F or early SSTR stuff just before your time and allowed that ball to start rolling. In that case, I agree with you and you have my sympathy; they aided a change to the system, leaped on by the locos, that will be difficult to roll back. If that is what you mean, then that's fair. I have seen too many people blame the generation that didn't have anything to do with it, though. Presumably they expected an industry wide strike against new terms, but that would have been illegal and cost family men their jobs, and would then have enabled locos to drive the conditions even lower and even faster by recruiting more desperate people. That'd have been bad for everyone.
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I also agree in some ways with young Kite.
He is quite correct that if he doesn't pay for the training there are literally thousands of others who will. I see SSTR as a very different thing to P2F however. Who the f*** else pays their employer? It's madness.
This is where the employers have all their pilots "over a barrel". Or certainly bent over in some ways.....
Until this stops, ts & cs will newer improve. You don't see surgeons fighting each other to pay for their training like this. Or dentists or doctors......
I fear for the young guns Kite's age. Is this how their career will be? 40 years of this? I doubt many his age will see it through to retirement.
He is quite correct that if he doesn't pay for the training there are literally thousands of others who will. I see SSTR as a very different thing to P2F however. Who the f*** else pays their employer? It's madness.
This is where the employers have all their pilots "over a barrel". Or certainly bent over in some ways.....
Until this stops, ts & cs will newer improve. You don't see surgeons fighting each other to pay for their training like this. Or dentists or doctors......
I fear for the young guns Kite's age. Is this how their career will be? 40 years of this? I doubt many his age will see it through to retirement.
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I'm glad you now see what I was trying to say. And just to add, I don't blame all previous pilots as I'm aware that many of the senior guys had nothing to do with ever paying a penny (I don't really hold grudges against anyone really)
As for what the industry will be like in 40+ years and if I ever live that long or fly for that long ... well all I know is that I'm not getting myself into this to become a millionaire so can't get too disappointed ... who knows what it will be like.
As for what the industry will be like in 40+ years and if I ever live that long or fly for that long ... well all I know is that I'm not getting myself into this to become a millionaire so can't get too disappointed ... who knows what it will be like.
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Certainly a P2F scheme for an obsolete type seems to obvious a bad deal to be taken up, but that is what this thread is about. It's patently obvious what will happen - whoever takes the bait will be paying for the agreed term on the promise of a job at the end, but trapped with a useless rating and crippling debt, they will be abused further with deferral of the paid job with the bait of doing just one more month unpaid again and again. But some people don't want to see it.
I can remember the first two people that I encountered that were about to embark upon a self sponsored 737 rating, all of us that were in the industry were of the same opinion that they shouldn't do it. The consensus was that if you guys do this today then within 10 years the airlines will expect us all to do it, that was early in the 1990's!
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I can remember the first two people that I encountered that were about to embark upon a self sponsored 737 rating, all of us that were in the industry were of the same opinion that they shouldn't do it. The consensus was that if you guys do this today then within 10 years the airlines will expect us all to do it, that was early in the 1990's!
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No difference Justin. It's the same thing. Companies like to call it training but it's you, paying to go to work. And for the company it's an extra business class passenger sitting in the cockpit.
Line training is s legitimate exercise, but what are they telling you..... 500 hours??? Lol
Line training is s legitimate exercise, but what are they telling you..... 500 hours??? Lol
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Sacrifice
All pilots have at some stage of their lives sacrificed something to be in this profession but what today's generation are willing to put up with is sheer stupidity.
You reap what you sow and you will suffer for it.
You reap what you sow and you will suffer for it.
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So if you think p2f is an enormous disaster for aviation industry and you think humanity goning to be in danger if i pay to get a type rating with some hours of flight please say what can i do with cpl/ir and 190 hours of flight with pa-28.?
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So if you think p2f is an enormous disaster for aviation industry
Can you imagine, paying your employer to work for them ... it reminds of that old French saying, "Le monde a l'envers", literally the "world upside down", at what point in history did it become the employee who pays the employer to carry the employer's fare paying passengers? What next? Apprentices paying building companies to build a block of flats?
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yes it's painful to pay them and work for them but it's my dream to have a320 type rating.do you know an airline thats looking for students who are graduateed recently and promis to hire them without knowing anything about their level of knowledge and flying skills?i think they hire these cases with knowing them in the period of line training for example choose 50 out of 80
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yes it's painful to pay them and work for them but it's my dream to have a320 type rating.do you know an airline thats looking for students who are graduateed recently and promis to hire them without knowing anything about their level of knowledge and flying skills?
P.S. I think the title of this thread should be changed, you said you're not even looking for a 727 rating.
Last edited by Officer Kite; 13th Jan 2017 at 10:31.
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Justin? Where are you from? What License do you have?
You sound like a kid, youre either just here for fun or if you are really this clueless than you shouldn't be anywhere near an a320
You sound like a kid, youre either just here for fun or if you are really this clueless than you shouldn't be anywhere near an a320