Clear signal from EK managemant
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Clear signal from EK managemant
This is really for all of the pilots out there thinking whether or not to join EK.
There's post after post with people asking question with all the answers you need, but to save looking too far just read the font page posts here.
It won't take many minutes of you time to answer the questions your looking for.
It's clear cut. They don't care about you, they don't care about how many resign, they don't care if they park aircraft as long as they can fill their greedy pockets.
With all of the airlines around to world looking pilots there are far nicer places to live with a much better management culture. Think twice!
There's post after post with people asking question with all the answers you need, but to save looking too far just read the font page posts here.
It won't take many minutes of you time to answer the questions your looking for.
It's clear cut. They don't care about you, they don't care about how many resign, they don't care if they park aircraft as long as they can fill their greedy pockets.
With all of the airlines around to world looking pilots there are far nicer places to live with a much better management culture. Think twice!
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A category with no balls, divided, individualistic, often contaminated by barrack mentality and mafia like attitudes lost exclusively behind financial return and nothing else and moreover with no ethics deserves only to be treated like this. Sorry. It would take 24 hours to solve the issue...planting the planes on ground but you just got no balls to react ..you have that villa mortgage or your stupid SUV to pay..just stop complaining please.
The only thing I'd disagree with, Puff, is that it's not a "they", it's a "he".
I'm here as part of the fallout of the ego driven decisions of one man 15 years ago, decisions that put around 18 000 people out of work.
We're not at that point yet, but we are witnessing a similar situation, where one individuals decisions, based in no way on what is the best way to fulfil his assigned role, is affecting thousands.
When capitalism meets nationalistic nepotism, bad things happen.
I'm here as part of the fallout of the ego driven decisions of one man 15 years ago, decisions that put around 18 000 people out of work.
We're not at that point yet, but we are witnessing a similar situation, where one individuals decisions, based in no way on what is the best way to fulfil his assigned role, is affecting thousands.
When capitalism meets nationalistic nepotism, bad things happen.
bob,
Please enlighten us at to when you have ever had the "balls" to take an action punishable by several years in prison?
Please enlighten us at to when you have ever had the "balls" to take an action punishable by several years in prison?
Wiz, do you think for one second that said individual will in any way suffer due to his ill management of the situation? Or will a nice soft family parachute cushion his inevitable IMHO professional implosion?
As an aside, I'd be interested in the pre pay review rumours that were being discussed, if nothing else it would show others looking at coming here, the perception vs reality.
Bob, walk a mile in another mans shoes, do you like the prospect of a nice comfortable prison in the ME region?
As an aside, I'd be interested in the pre pay review rumours that were being discussed, if nothing else it would show others looking at coming here, the perception vs reality.
Bob, walk a mile in another mans shoes, do you like the prospect of a nice comfortable prison in the ME region?
Wiz, do you think for one second that said individual will in any way suffer due to his ill management of the situation? Or will a nice soft family parachute cushion his inevitable IMHO professional implosion?
The main problem isn't what will happen to him, it's WHEN!! The nepotism is keeping him there, and that does not bode well.
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A woman in hot air balloon realized she is lost...
She reduced altitude & shouted to a man below: Excuse me, can you help me? I promised a friend to meet him an hour ago but I don't know where I am.
Man below replied: You are in hot air balloon 30 feet above the ground. You are at 41 degree North latitude & 59 degree West longitude.
Lady: You must be a Pilot
Man: How do you know?
Lady: Everything you told me is technically correct but useless & the fact is I'm still lost.
Pilot: You must be in Top Management.
Lady: Ya. How do you know?
Pilot: You don't know where you are or where you're going. You made a promise, which you've no idea how to keep & you expect people beneath you to solve your problems..!!
������������
She reduced altitude & shouted to a man below: Excuse me, can you help me? I promised a friend to meet him an hour ago but I don't know where I am.
Man below replied: You are in hot air balloon 30 feet above the ground. You are at 41 degree North latitude & 59 degree West longitude.
Lady: You must be a Pilot
Man: How do you know?
Lady: Everything you told me is technically correct but useless & the fact is I'm still lost.
Pilot: You must be in Top Management.
Lady: Ya. How do you know?
Pilot: You don't know where you are or where you're going. You made a promise, which you've no idea how to keep & you expect people beneath you to solve your problems..!!
������������
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FRTS
The mantra of if you don’t like it leave is well embedded into the EK management model and was recited to me recently. It would seem that in the face of huge profits that the new lemon squeezing rostering machine is doing a better job than expected at reducing staff morale. Couple this with the limitations arbitrarily imposed by the company on the new rostering system without any due consideration of the cumulative effects of fatigue, we now have some extremely tired pilots flying the EK brand around the globe.
The inherent desire within management to chase the ever increasing profit target at all costs just shows how out of touch with reality they are whilst in the office for 5 days a week. The management call themselves“Captain’s” yet most don’t fly and have never flown rosters month on month to the limits that the system now gives us, and in EK’s case, inventively going above those limits by using the word “factoring.” Yet behind the out dated GCAAFTL limits, the well-oiled EK scheduling machine spits out rosters to the limit and in some cases above the legal limit using the extra fudge factoring option. Some are now simply drunk with fatigue, the doctors know it and fleet management know it but it is here to stay until an occurrence changes it.
My first few years at EK were great, 75 hours a month, a chance to spend time with family and friends, a chance to recuperate, participate in a few hobbies and keep fit. When asked by colleagues from my old airline that were interested, I replied that it was a good gig so they applied. Then TCAS writes that we needed to help out the company during dire economic times by pushing the limits. Forward to the present and there are no dire economic times, yet the management have found shrewd new ways of extending those limits. I now get “layovers” in Dubai, my family see a walking zombie, my fitness is suffering, I get to bid for one trip in my two top bid months and I can’t even swap any of my flights to try and get some personal roster satisfaction because of so many unknown business limits invented to stop me. It is soul destroying when every month a new rule is invented that reduces our roster satisfaction. Coincidentally not one pilot from my old coompany has applied in the last four years.
Rather than address the pilot shortage and attrition, they have simply miss-managed the numbers and then to address an experienced pilot shortage, introduced this pathetic excuse for a rostering system. To combat the lack of experienced pilots they once traditionally attracted, they have now significantly lowered the joining requirements and I hear from a good source, the passing criteria at the interview stage as well. I’d be guessing that experience appears to be an unquantifiable factor when you need to chase big profit targets using any means possible.
In essence this new EK rostering system is a festering turd; we were all told how great the new rostering system was going to be, but through all the talk and hype we all knew then that nothing was going to be done for the staff. Now that they’ve put all their silly “business” and in some cases, simply vindictive limitations into it with more stupidity added every month, we suffer the consequences. Yet they still pour whipped cream all over it and tell us with cherries being added on top that it will get better, but it’s still a turd and I don’t believe a word. Now that we fly to the limits (and I use the word “limits” loosely), I’m supposed to mitigate my tiredness with in-flight rest, half the time the guy in the RHS doesn’t have the experience for me to be confident that I will rest. This further adds to my cumulative fatigue, but its legal right! But is it morally right to report for a duty period where you know you will have to mitigate fatigue using coffee and controlled rest during that duty period?
With the company making so much money, it doesn’t have to be like that. So what needs to be done, investment in crew it’s as simple as that. Any rostering system will work if you have the correct crew ratio, the more stupid rules they put into the system, the more pilots you will need to allow it to run efficiently. Therefore the management need to make a firm commitment to get the hours back to 75 per month and a managed assurance to do so would reduce the exodus of decent experienced staff. It would give the company more flexibility and a safer operation, it will also ensure the pilots working the line get their contractual leave, you know the numbers written on the worthless contract piece of paper and not 4 leave days scattered into a roster which by definition should be days off. But it will never happen because EK is now driven by greed and has become a soulless company to work for. So when I’ve woken up I’ll continue to review my options outside the region and wish my colleagues all the best in what are very trying and tiring times. I guess I will leave as I don’t like it.
The inherent desire within management to chase the ever increasing profit target at all costs just shows how out of touch with reality they are whilst in the office for 5 days a week. The management call themselves“Captain’s” yet most don’t fly and have never flown rosters month on month to the limits that the system now gives us, and in EK’s case, inventively going above those limits by using the word “factoring.” Yet behind the out dated GCAAFTL limits, the well-oiled EK scheduling machine spits out rosters to the limit and in some cases above the legal limit using the extra fudge factoring option. Some are now simply drunk with fatigue, the doctors know it and fleet management know it but it is here to stay until an occurrence changes it.
My first few years at EK were great, 75 hours a month, a chance to spend time with family and friends, a chance to recuperate, participate in a few hobbies and keep fit. When asked by colleagues from my old airline that were interested, I replied that it was a good gig so they applied. Then TCAS writes that we needed to help out the company during dire economic times by pushing the limits. Forward to the present and there are no dire economic times, yet the management have found shrewd new ways of extending those limits. I now get “layovers” in Dubai, my family see a walking zombie, my fitness is suffering, I get to bid for one trip in my two top bid months and I can’t even swap any of my flights to try and get some personal roster satisfaction because of so many unknown business limits invented to stop me. It is soul destroying when every month a new rule is invented that reduces our roster satisfaction. Coincidentally not one pilot from my old coompany has applied in the last four years.
Rather than address the pilot shortage and attrition, they have simply miss-managed the numbers and then to address an experienced pilot shortage, introduced this pathetic excuse for a rostering system. To combat the lack of experienced pilots they once traditionally attracted, they have now significantly lowered the joining requirements and I hear from a good source, the passing criteria at the interview stage as well. I’d be guessing that experience appears to be an unquantifiable factor when you need to chase big profit targets using any means possible.
In essence this new EK rostering system is a festering turd; we were all told how great the new rostering system was going to be, but through all the talk and hype we all knew then that nothing was going to be done for the staff. Now that they’ve put all their silly “business” and in some cases, simply vindictive limitations into it with more stupidity added every month, we suffer the consequences. Yet they still pour whipped cream all over it and tell us with cherries being added on top that it will get better, but it’s still a turd and I don’t believe a word. Now that we fly to the limits (and I use the word “limits” loosely), I’m supposed to mitigate my tiredness with in-flight rest, half the time the guy in the RHS doesn’t have the experience for me to be confident that I will rest. This further adds to my cumulative fatigue, but its legal right! But is it morally right to report for a duty period where you know you will have to mitigate fatigue using coffee and controlled rest during that duty period?
With the company making so much money, it doesn’t have to be like that. So what needs to be done, investment in crew it’s as simple as that. Any rostering system will work if you have the correct crew ratio, the more stupid rules they put into the system, the more pilots you will need to allow it to run efficiently. Therefore the management need to make a firm commitment to get the hours back to 75 per month and a managed assurance to do so would reduce the exodus of decent experienced staff. It would give the company more flexibility and a safer operation, it will also ensure the pilots working the line get their contractual leave, you know the numbers written on the worthless contract piece of paper and not 4 leave days scattered into a roster which by definition should be days off. But it will never happen because EK is now driven by greed and has become a soulless company to work for. So when I’ve woken up I’ll continue to review my options outside the region and wish my colleagues all the best in what are very trying and tiring times. I guess I will leave as I don’t like it.
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well said CIIIb,
Aside from the limits, the inflation (or the greediness of this place) is another low punch...
The other day a tiny espresso cost me 28 AED (close to 7 Euros) in a hotel in Deira. Inside a tiny mall, at Starbks, espressos were sold for 18 AED (4.5 Eur)... a SB espresso!!. When in Europe/UK would cost you between 1.5-2.5 Euros... (and tax is paid)
At the Belgium in Tecom, a simple can of lemonade, which would cost you 1.5 in a petrol station, was sold at 22 AED.
A sparkling water which in Europe you can get it for 4 Euros at any restaurant, in a Cafe at the DXB mall the charge was 30 AED (7eur).
A glass of a cheap red wine at a bar, 65 AED (when we used to pay 30-35 AED 10 years ago).
The parking in Dubai became more expensive together with Salik toll.
Stepping in some supermarkets is nearly as expensive as going to a club in Ibiza...
For those with kids, schools are another low punch...
Accommodation is imposible to understand, so many empty apartments and the prices are still high.
Eating out is more expensive. Cooking at home is sometimes as expensive as ordering delivery.
The sales at the mall are a joke (as if they overprice the item, they scratch the number and put an original number bellow).
Is like everyone is going mad to get as much money and advantage from you...
All this and the salaries do not move. And on top of this, the management see the limitation as a reference point to follow...
Once a Capt told me... if you drive a car, you normally drive it at 3500 RPMs, sometimes you will accelerate to 5 or 6000 and you will be bellow the limit (lets say the red line is at 6500). If you drive some times at 6450 RPMs you are bellow the limits and it will be fine.
However if you drive constantly at just bellow the limit, the engine wont last or will suffer so much that it will have to be taken to the mechanic (EK Klinik)...
The limits are that... a limit is a line to be avoided not a reference line to follow to maximize profit.
Good luck to all of you, try to keep yourselves as fit as possible and remember...when in doubt press 2 (no one from the office will bring you flowers the day you will end up in a hospital)
Aside from the limits, the inflation (or the greediness of this place) is another low punch...
The other day a tiny espresso cost me 28 AED (close to 7 Euros) in a hotel in Deira. Inside a tiny mall, at Starbks, espressos were sold for 18 AED (4.5 Eur)... a SB espresso!!. When in Europe/UK would cost you between 1.5-2.5 Euros... (and tax is paid)
At the Belgium in Tecom, a simple can of lemonade, which would cost you 1.5 in a petrol station, was sold at 22 AED.
A sparkling water which in Europe you can get it for 4 Euros at any restaurant, in a Cafe at the DXB mall the charge was 30 AED (7eur).
A glass of a cheap red wine at a bar, 65 AED (when we used to pay 30-35 AED 10 years ago).
The parking in Dubai became more expensive together with Salik toll.
Stepping in some supermarkets is nearly as expensive as going to a club in Ibiza...
For those with kids, schools are another low punch...
Accommodation is imposible to understand, so many empty apartments and the prices are still high.
Eating out is more expensive. Cooking at home is sometimes as expensive as ordering delivery.
The sales at the mall are a joke (as if they overprice the item, they scratch the number and put an original number bellow).
Is like everyone is going mad to get as much money and advantage from you...
All this and the salaries do not move. And on top of this, the management see the limitation as a reference point to follow...
Once a Capt told me... if you drive a car, you normally drive it at 3500 RPMs, sometimes you will accelerate to 5 or 6000 and you will be bellow the limit (lets say the red line is at 6500). If you drive some times at 6450 RPMs you are bellow the limits and it will be fine.
However if you drive constantly at just bellow the limit, the engine wont last or will suffer so much that it will have to be taken to the mechanic (EK Klinik)...
The limits are that... a limit is a line to be avoided not a reference line to follow to maximize profit.
Good luck to all of you, try to keep yourselves as fit as possible and remember...when in doubt press 2 (no one from the office will bring you flowers the day you will end up in a hospital)
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Great post! It concisely sums the place up.
It is interesting to note that in stark contrast to your accurate summary the company is now frequently using words like "nurturing" and "caring". One of our hierarchy at a public address was pumping the line that the company was not all about profits; the important aspect was "their people".
It would appear they are now well aware that their reputation as an employer is being rapidly evaporated. Some aggrieved employees feel strongly enough to put up whole websites to expose the truth, that other aggrieved employees contribute to, Posting on sites like this are seldom complimentary. Social media terrifies them when it should be the platform by which good experiences are shared, and the minority who make unwarranted complaint are quickly put to rest by their own peers. If there was nothing to the rumour it should elicit little more than derision and mirth.
And then behind the scenes there are tens of thousands of employees who speak to friends and relatives and tell them their own experiences, shedding light on the general company ethos with regards to those who work for them.
As one example, imagine the tens of thousands of conversations with regards to the salary review. Marginal increases with massive profits. The largess was hardly spread around, expectations were disappointed and as a result attitudes formed and were expounded.
So now the spin has begun. The tactic is old as the hills. Propagate some line; Make sure everyone in authority says it again and again; Drum it in to whoever is listening; Repeat as often as possible; Shout it louder and louder. In the background silence, by any means, anyone who has an opposing opinion. Ignore or sideline complaint or suggestion. Create your own truth. Manufacture a belief.
It has never worked. It will for a while, then it will collapse.
Look at the many despotic regimes that have resorted to this over the centuries. Ultimately they have imploded, caught in a web of their own lies. Or else enlightenment and sanity has prevailed before all was lost, then truth, introspection and restoration has begun.
We can only hope for the latter.
Great post! It concisely sums the place up.
It is interesting to note that in stark contrast to your accurate summary the company is now frequently using words like "nurturing" and "caring". One of our hierarchy at a public address was pumping the line that the company was not all about profits; the important aspect was "their people".
It would appear they are now well aware that their reputation as an employer is being rapidly evaporated. Some aggrieved employees feel strongly enough to put up whole websites to expose the truth, that other aggrieved employees contribute to, Posting on sites like this are seldom complimentary. Social media terrifies them when it should be the platform by which good experiences are shared, and the minority who make unwarranted complaint are quickly put to rest by their own peers. If there was nothing to the rumour it should elicit little more than derision and mirth.
And then behind the scenes there are tens of thousands of employees who speak to friends and relatives and tell them their own experiences, shedding light on the general company ethos with regards to those who work for them.
As one example, imagine the tens of thousands of conversations with regards to the salary review. Marginal increases with massive profits. The largess was hardly spread around, expectations were disappointed and as a result attitudes formed and were expounded.
So now the spin has begun. The tactic is old as the hills. Propagate some line; Make sure everyone in authority says it again and again; Drum it in to whoever is listening; Repeat as often as possible; Shout it louder and louder. In the background silence, by any means, anyone who has an opposing opinion. Ignore or sideline complaint or suggestion. Create your own truth. Manufacture a belief.
It has never worked. It will for a while, then it will collapse.
Look at the many despotic regimes that have resorted to this over the centuries. Ultimately they have imploded, caught in a web of their own lies. Or else enlightenment and sanity has prevailed before all was lost, then truth, introspection and restoration has begun.
We can only hope for the latter.
Last edited by Your Proxy; 11th Jun 2016 at 05:12.
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The other day a tiny espresso cost me 28 AED (close to 7 Euros) in a hotel in Deira. Inside a tiny mall, at Starbks, espressos were sold for 18 AED (4.5 Eur)... a SB espresso!!. When in Europe/UK would cost you between 1.5-2.5 Euros... (and tax is paid)
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PS to shop wisely wasn't the point, I do and still this place is overpriced. Those were comparison peaks that if you go to a hotel in London paying 5 GBP is a known rip off, but paying 7 euros in a Deira old hotel during a mid morning meeting is a new rip off. This wasn't happening 10 years ago. Deira isn't London. Deira has not tax, London is known for being expensive.
Get your Costa on a paper cup with a discount and no tax... 2.50 euros... another rip off.
Inflation is the point here. How expensive things are getting while we keep our salary with little increase.
(another senseless comparison is that you can buy a solar charger in MoE for 100 while in Satwa is 50Aed and in DragonM is at 30) MOE is getting 330% more than DM and many other shops in Dubai are doing that.
The overprice here is way too much. The cost is the same (higher rent in MOE but still no tax and the salary of the staff is still so low). Ask any taxi driver, the taxi became more expensive recently, did they got a salary increase? no.
see you at Costa one of these days
Get your Costa on a paper cup with a discount and no tax... 2.50 euros... another rip off.
Inflation is the point here. How expensive things are getting while we keep our salary with little increase.
(another senseless comparison is that you can buy a solar charger in MoE for 100 while in Satwa is 50Aed and in DragonM is at 30) MOE is getting 330% more than DM and many other shops in Dubai are doing that.
The overprice here is way too much. The cost is the same (higher rent in MOE but still no tax and the salary of the staff is still so low). Ask any taxi driver, the taxi became more expensive recently, did they got a salary increase? no.
see you at Costa one of these days
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What I find amusing is the title of this thread. There has been a clear signal from management since at least 2009. Why on earth would anyone with the brain to fly these aircraft think that there will be any sort of change? That signal has lit for many years. Best advice I could ever give......expect nothing, smile at something, enjoy your family when you can and enjoy the 100 hrs of flights when you can. Don't make EK your life or your identity. Just know that what you have today will not really change. Factoring will not go away, 100 hours is here to stay, predictable salary is here to stay, and you will be tired. One of the biggest disappointments in all areas of life is having unrealistic expectations. And expecting anything other than 100 hours, no significant pay raises/profit share and fatigue, and you WILL be disappointed. Not a damn thing you can do about it other than move to the next uniform. But the line out the exit door is being replaced by the line at the entry door. No expectations, and don't ever be surprised by anything rolling downhill.
And I am NOT saying, "if you don't like it, leave". But sadly that is the reality. You can't change the culture and the dynamics, so let's quit banging our collective heads. The one thing you can count on, is this company is totally and I mean totally predictable.
And I am NOT saying, "if you don't like it, leave". But sadly that is the reality. You can't change the culture and the dynamics, so let's quit banging our collective heads. The one thing you can count on, is this company is totally and I mean totally predictable.
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88, good post! The company really doesn't care if you leave. Look at the recruitment thread and you will see that the interviewing is flat out and they are barely getting the numbers but that fact is they are filling the slots. Stay because you want to ( for your out personal reason) or leave for the same. It's tiring to sit in the flight deck and hear some guy go on and on about how bad things are , can't we just enjoy the day/ trip/ layover.
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Good Post, Panther! It takes a lot for expats to realise that fact as they are used to things being changed at least a little for the better when enough of it's employees complain or comment. Absolutely not the case in EK. It's their sandbox and their rules, like it or not.
Glad to have left when I did.
Lungs aren't full of sand, sleep is better and more consistent, just feeling a lot better health wise, all this while still flying ULR in my current airline for more money Per Hour. Imagine that....
K
Glad to have left when I did.
Lungs aren't full of sand, sleep is better and more consistent, just feeling a lot better health wise, all this while still flying ULR in my current airline for more money Per Hour. Imagine that....
K
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Guys can anyone let us know what was discussed at the Fleet Forum.. In this New Age of Communication they fail to Communicate..
HD might be Worse then TCAS!
Still no contract adjustment letters..
HD might be Worse then TCAS!
Still no contract adjustment letters..
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Have to disagree there, Gen. D. The results may be the same but I know for a fact that his approach to pilots and our issues is 180 out from TCAS. Email the man. Tell him your deals. At least he goes to the "shop floor" every week. And I don't mean Costa. Decisions that affect our overall conditions are NOT made on the 3rd floor.