Comments on fatique
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So they might increase the salary just enough to make people think twice about resigning, but they won't recruit more pilots to ease the workload. It's just not in the plan. And that's the biggest problem with us as a pilot group in the ME. We tend to be mercenaries - happy to state fatigue is prevalent and dangerous but just as happy to ignore it to earn an extra 10 bucks... Airline managers know this and use it to their advantage - if you want an example consider a certain European LoCo who used to work to a random roster pattern which was quite tiring swapping earlies to lates and back again. They introduced a fixed pattern of 5 earlies followed by days off and 5 lates to mitigate the effects of sleep deprivation. Then when they realised they needed flexibility due to shortage of crew they offered volunteers £10,000 to go on a random roster for 3 months in the summer... Guess what? - no shortage of volunteers and no fatigue reports even though behind the scenes everyone was saying they were shattered due to the disruptive nature of the flexi rosters. Still, nice to boast about that extra cash, eh?
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Jack S
If pilots asking money for fatigue, hire more pilots, lots of them. Then greedy ones cannot demand any more. There are more 777s operated by other carriers with lots of well trained pilots, and those pilots should join in a heartbeat.
Money is not the problem for this well run profitable numbers company.
It can spend $2 Billion/year on marketing, advertising and bad mouthing other airlines.
It can take two B777s and a A380 every month.
It can have dozens of routes with average load factor of 34%.
It gives away economy seats at throw away prices.
Its premium cabins are filled with state officials, reward FFPs and other free upgrades.
Unlimited supply of Dom and Hennessy.
None of these are characteristics of a well run for-profit commercial entity.
While throwing away money on so many things just to show off, why be stingy on actual humans who are the most important factor of flight safety aspect.
You ability to distinguish fatigue from tiredness means nothing to 62 fatalities and their families.
If pilots asking money for fatigue, hire more pilots, lots of them. Then greedy ones cannot demand any more. There are more 777s operated by other carriers with lots of well trained pilots, and those pilots should join in a heartbeat.
Money is not the problem for this well run profitable numbers company.
It can spend $2 Billion/year on marketing, advertising and bad mouthing other airlines.
It can take two B777s and a A380 every month.
It can have dozens of routes with average load factor of 34%.
It gives away economy seats at throw away prices.
Its premium cabins are filled with state officials, reward FFPs and other free upgrades.
Unlimited supply of Dom and Hennessy.
None of these are characteristics of a well run for-profit commercial entity.
While throwing away money on so many things just to show off, why be stingy on actual humans who are the most important factor of flight safety aspect.
You ability to distinguish fatigue from tiredness means nothing to 62 fatalities and their families.
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I have said it many times and will continue to say so:
As long as EK doesn't up the overtime payment to at least 1500 Dhs/hr for captains, there won't be any improvement.
Think what the average captain costs to the company, include things as medical department and training department running costs, schooling fees, accommodation etc.. You will easily reach a number around 1200 Dhs/hr. Yet, for those extra hours you put in, the company pays you only 600???
From the company's perspective, you are giving them 600 Dhs per hour to work overtime!! They have absolutely NO incentive to stop that. So the one thing that's way more important than any numbers published about thresholds etc, is the amount you are paid when you exceed this threshold. This HAS to be more then what you cost below the threshold.
I know pprune is not the place to ask management these questions, but these questions need to be asked EVERY time there is a forum, a management meeting etc.. It's in fact also the big question journalist should be interested in: Why do people work cheaper in overtime, and how does this reflect on the company's safety culture claim?
As long as EK doesn't up the overtime payment to at least 1500 Dhs/hr for captains, there won't be any improvement.
Think what the average captain costs to the company, include things as medical department and training department running costs, schooling fees, accommodation etc.. You will easily reach a number around 1200 Dhs/hr. Yet, for those extra hours you put in, the company pays you only 600???
From the company's perspective, you are giving them 600 Dhs per hour to work overtime!! They have absolutely NO incentive to stop that. So the one thing that's way more important than any numbers published about thresholds etc, is the amount you are paid when you exceed this threshold. This HAS to be more then what you cost below the threshold.
I know pprune is not the place to ask management these questions, but these questions need to be asked EVERY time there is a forum, a management meeting etc.. It's in fact also the big question journalist should be interested in: Why do people work cheaper in overtime, and how does this reflect on the company's safety culture claim?
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MR8 you are entirely correct.
However, why not then write to HD or JA and ask this question? Asking at a forum or washup is a complete waste of time.
Writing in, following up and forcing a written reply is far more useful. Send it in as a forum topic. Only then is there useful data to be taken up the line and a record. JA has bosses too. He cant say "I heard from a few". He needs the data. This place is "data driven" if you hadn't already noticed.
If others also write in on the same subject it is more likely to be addressed. (you may not even be aware that they have written). A mass of written data is hard to avoid especially if something unpleasant happens. No one wants that sitting in the open.
The same principle applies to ASR's, Fatigue Reports etc.
Keep it factual, unemotional and polite and there is little to fear. Everyone down from TC has asked for feedback. I wonder how many do. Yet they are happy to gripe on Pprune which is entirely useless.
I have been here many years and written my views on some controversial topics. I have put in Fatigue Reports when required, and ASR's on system shortcomings. Never once have I been singled out for special treatment or been otherwise blacklisted.
The pilot fraternity are happy to see T&C erode and moan to everyone on every forum but are any of: too lazy, too stupid, too illiterate or simply too cowardly to put the effort into writing in response to the numerous invitations we have.
On your topic: Apparently this was raised at the last forum though was likely ad-hoc rather than written in advance. JA denied that the low overtime rate was used as substitute to hiring more pilots. Apparently amazed anyone should think this. This was disputed by those there who pointed out that he may be amazed but it had surely not missed the accountants.
Its clearly obvious that overtime is economically preferable to more pilots. It was only intended as a tool to be used in some peak flying months to avoid an over supply of pilots in non peak months. Perfectly reasonable from a company perspective. This was written to us some years ago.
However some crafty accountants have done their sums and now we do productivity to the point of exhaustion. Because its cost effective. And because few have actually complained thereby allowing the status quo to go unaddressed.
However, why not then write to HD or JA and ask this question? Asking at a forum or washup is a complete waste of time.
Writing in, following up and forcing a written reply is far more useful. Send it in as a forum topic. Only then is there useful data to be taken up the line and a record. JA has bosses too. He cant say "I heard from a few". He needs the data. This place is "data driven" if you hadn't already noticed.
If others also write in on the same subject it is more likely to be addressed. (you may not even be aware that they have written). A mass of written data is hard to avoid especially if something unpleasant happens. No one wants that sitting in the open.
The same principle applies to ASR's, Fatigue Reports etc.
Keep it factual, unemotional and polite and there is little to fear. Everyone down from TC has asked for feedback. I wonder how many do. Yet they are happy to gripe on Pprune which is entirely useless.
I have been here many years and written my views on some controversial topics. I have put in Fatigue Reports when required, and ASR's on system shortcomings. Never once have I been singled out for special treatment or been otherwise blacklisted.
The pilot fraternity are happy to see T&C erode and moan to everyone on every forum but are any of: too lazy, too stupid, too illiterate or simply too cowardly to put the effort into writing in response to the numerous invitations we have.
On your topic: Apparently this was raised at the last forum though was likely ad-hoc rather than written in advance. JA denied that the low overtime rate was used as substitute to hiring more pilots. Apparently amazed anyone should think this. This was disputed by those there who pointed out that he may be amazed but it had surely not missed the accountants.
Its clearly obvious that overtime is economically preferable to more pilots. It was only intended as a tool to be used in some peak flying months to avoid an over supply of pilots in non peak months. Perfectly reasonable from a company perspective. This was written to us some years ago.
However some crafty accountants have done their sums and now we do productivity to the point of exhaustion. Because its cost effective. And because few have actually complained thereby allowing the status quo to go unaddressed.
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I'm not sure that's the right question at all, MR8...!
The question should not be about how much money a company pays to push it's pilots to the limits and beyond, but why that company is not rostering at a sensible level to avoid the fatigue issue.
I'd be interested to see an anonymous poll on PPRUNE indicating how pilots perceive the benefits of more money versus less fatigue.
Imagine going for major heart surgery at a hospital in the Western world and finding out your doctor is struggling to stay awake because he worked some extra night shifts for a few bucks more.
The only difference being that if he makes a mistake he can bury it - literally.
Fly safe
The question should not be about how much money a company pays to push it's pilots to the limits and beyond, but why that company is not rostering at a sensible level to avoid the fatigue issue.
I'd be interested to see an anonymous poll on PPRUNE indicating how pilots perceive the benefits of more money versus less fatigue.
Imagine going for major heart surgery at a hospital in the Western world and finding out your doctor is struggling to stay awake because he worked some extra night shifts for a few bucks more.
The only difference being that if he makes a mistake he can bury it - literally.
Fly safe
I agree that the overtime cost being beneficial to the company is an issue. So too are the SNAFU variations and exceptions that the MRA has managed to get the GCAA to accept. What is really beyond the pale is the corrupted recording of relief crew flight time allowing the flight time limits to be routinely exceeded without any real justification. The flying schedule can then be flown with fewer pilots at the expense of their health and well being.
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Mr Good cat
Its well known that fatigue goes out of the window when money is involved. Its been like this since Pontius was a pilot. Your flogging a dead horse. Yes it could be different at EK but .....
Its well known that fatigue goes out of the window when money is involved. Its been like this since Pontius was a pilot. Your flogging a dead horse. Yes it could be different at EK but .....
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Flying 80+ hrs every month with minimum days off and combined rest patern while flying a worldwide ops is the base of beeing sick and fatiqued and so compromising safety.
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There is a substantial difference in contractual powers here. Airlines are using IATA meeting as a mean to orchestrate the degradation of pilot salaries and life styles. Pilots are just bitching on Pprune and looking at their shor term interests Look at the western pilot conditions up to the 80/90s and see how they deteriorated after deregulation and the fall of the Berlin Wall. Union are the only solution and in a globalized world pilots need a global union. We should start looking into something like it.. Pilots can stop the world from turning.
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cucuotto
A lot will depend on the union, who's your representative and for which Company you work.
For 10 years I wasted 1% of my salary, funding an organisation who's only real interest was in defending the state carrier. Just ask Dan Air pilots how good BALPA was at protecting seniority. Of course, 'colleagues' in BA would say that those already type rated deserved to get in while it was 'tough titties' on those rated on obsolete B727's and BAC1-11's. Guys in their forties and fifties with families were made jobless overnight whilst young, single and far more junior pilots rated on the B737 went to work the next day in BA uniforms. Isn't one of the fundamental principles of the union to protect seniority? How about asking the British Midland pilots about how useful BALPA was in protecting their pensions, a pension that 'disappeared' when Lufthansa took over. The former boss of BM, who I refuse to refer to as a 'Sir' because he most definitely isn't one, left with a very large payout from the 'sale'. Hundreds of millions of pension money simply disappeared. These are just two well known UK cases. There are plenty more including Australia and the US with their legacy airlines.
So, when people talk about how great unions are, I think of the guys who 'lead' these councils and their real agenda. My own BALPA representative was an overweight, smelly and tight fisted hypocrite who claimed to be left wing but lived in a multi million pound house in an exclusive part of the UK South Coast near Brighton. He bragged once that his son rang the police because he thought his mum was missing. Turned out the house was so big she just hadn't heard him shouting! The police recommended an intercom system for their multi room mansion. His children went to private schools and yet he'd go on a 7 day trip to somewhere warm and use the suntan cream from the junior cabin crew. His often quoted saying 'we put a shot across their bows' was a way of saying....I hear what you're saying, I'll try to justify your 1% by pretending to do something, but I couldn't really give a toss as I'm in this for myself and hopefully I'll get elected to the board and make a name for myself at the top of the organisation.
Over £6000 I contributed to my union. It was the worst 'investment' decision of my life!
Harry
A lot will depend on the union, who's your representative and for which Company you work.
For 10 years I wasted 1% of my salary, funding an organisation who's only real interest was in defending the state carrier. Just ask Dan Air pilots how good BALPA was at protecting seniority. Of course, 'colleagues' in BA would say that those already type rated deserved to get in while it was 'tough titties' on those rated on obsolete B727's and BAC1-11's. Guys in their forties and fifties with families were made jobless overnight whilst young, single and far more junior pilots rated on the B737 went to work the next day in BA uniforms. Isn't one of the fundamental principles of the union to protect seniority? How about asking the British Midland pilots about how useful BALPA was in protecting their pensions, a pension that 'disappeared' when Lufthansa took over. The former boss of BM, who I refuse to refer to as a 'Sir' because he most definitely isn't one, left with a very large payout from the 'sale'. Hundreds of millions of pension money simply disappeared. These are just two well known UK cases. There are plenty more including Australia and the US with their legacy airlines.
So, when people talk about how great unions are, I think of the guys who 'lead' these councils and their real agenda. My own BALPA representative was an overweight, smelly and tight fisted hypocrite who claimed to be left wing but lived in a multi million pound house in an exclusive part of the UK South Coast near Brighton. He bragged once that his son rang the police because he thought his mum was missing. Turned out the house was so big she just hadn't heard him shouting! The police recommended an intercom system for their multi room mansion. His children went to private schools and yet he'd go on a 7 day trip to somewhere warm and use the suntan cream from the junior cabin crew. His often quoted saying 'we put a shot across their bows' was a way of saying....I hear what you're saying, I'll try to justify your 1% by pretending to do something, but I couldn't really give a toss as I'm in this for myself and hopefully I'll get elected to the board and make a name for myself at the top of the organisation.
Over £6000 I contributed to my union. It was the worst 'investment' decision of my life!
Harry
Last edited by harry the cod; 10th Apr 2016 at 07:53.
Harry, with the greatest of respect you are wrong in some ( not all!) of your BALPA criticism. I could cite you many examples where the union was pro-active and successful in bringing about change for the good. The Dan - Air situation is oft - quoted but does not reflect reality. BALPA was told to 'back off' so BA could cherry pick the 737 operation and Gatwick crews. Otherwise, no deal. BALPA did not bankrupt Dan - Air; unfortunately, they managed to do that all on its own. The BA 'take over' is a glimpse of the future where 'fairness' takes a back seat.
However, I do agree with you about the appalling pillage of the BM pension scheme and the greed of the main protagonist who was amazingly knighted by the UK establishment. Plus... in recent years after being a long time BALPA member I too have tired of the endless rearguard battles, generally lost with ruthless and immoral 'management'. I was until fairly recently in a well known airline, very unionised ( no prizes) that merged with a rival with, shall we say, a more 'modern' approach to managing people. The plc had been used to dealing in a gentlemanly fashion with managers and that was no longer the case. So in summary, the union is really only as good as those elected. I know a lot of individuals who invested a lot of their time for the greater good but unfortunately as in your example some that were only investing in their career advancement through this well travelled route into management. The major issue is the greed and immorality of modern managers, presumably prevalent in other industries but particularly ours and the inability of unions to cope with them.
However, I do agree with you about the appalling pillage of the BM pension scheme and the greed of the main protagonist who was amazingly knighted by the UK establishment. Plus... in recent years after being a long time BALPA member I too have tired of the endless rearguard battles, generally lost with ruthless and immoral 'management'. I was until fairly recently in a well known airline, very unionised ( no prizes) that merged with a rival with, shall we say, a more 'modern' approach to managing people. The plc had been used to dealing in a gentlemanly fashion with managers and that was no longer the case. So in summary, the union is really only as good as those elected. I know a lot of individuals who invested a lot of their time for the greater good but unfortunately as in your example some that were only investing in their career advancement through this well travelled route into management. The major issue is the greed and immorality of modern managers, presumably prevalent in other industries but particularly ours and the inability of unions to cope with them.
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I was shafted by BALPA in EZY in the early 2000s. I will never, ever pay money to that organisation again. They are utterly corrupt - at least the company is honest in acting in its own interests. BALPA won't publicly back REPA at Ryanair now, because they're too cowardiced.
Very interesting A/S. I was in EZY during the early 2000's. The plc were mainly manned by Antipodeans who were no B/S individuals who combatted the worst excesses of the appalling 'orange' management with robust opposition. They had integrity in spades and were not 'cowardice' (sic) in the slightest. Their main achievement - to bring the thread back on track - was to introduce the block days on / off roster which at the very least off set the fatigue - inducing random rosters so beloved of the rostering department of that era (It's legal ). To say that they are corrupt is unfair and untrue - the opposite is the case. The 1pc that is paid to BALPA is tax deductible and is negligible in fact. I am no longer a blinkered supporter of BALPA but I am disappointed that they have not risen to the challenge of modern business practice and lack of morality that poisons the airline industry today.
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Olster, I don't wish to digress on this thread, but in short, those three and the others on the council endorsed and signed a deal that was kept secret from the membership and rest of the pilots until ratified that cost senior FOs their loyalty bonuses and a lot of flight pay. The deal cost senior FOs £14pa and 2 weeks leave. The capts on the council were all made TREs a month later, and a month after that, all company TREs got a 25% pay rise. Make of that what you will...
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olster
Appreciate the balanced view, obviously fortunate enough to have a better Company Council than the circus I had. Unfortunately, there were one or two hard workers with massive integrity but this was blocked by the overweight buffoon who was in charge at the time!
Back to the thread. A colleague recently was 'SKF' but I noticed at the beginning of the month he'd had 7 consecutive days off. With the monthly hours consistently standing at around 90, the system needs to make up the work somehow and will compact duties into tight blocks if people are requesting large chunks of days off. The question is, therefore, are we in danger of having these 'unlimited' days off restricted again in light of this accident if fatigue is indeed cited as a factor? While the hourly schedules are as high as they are, it's almost impossible NOT to have fatigue inducing rosters if some of us want to get blocks of days off to commute.
Just a thought.
Harry
Appreciate the balanced view, obviously fortunate enough to have a better Company Council than the circus I had. Unfortunately, there were one or two hard workers with massive integrity but this was blocked by the overweight buffoon who was in charge at the time!
Back to the thread. A colleague recently was 'SKF' but I noticed at the beginning of the month he'd had 7 consecutive days off. With the monthly hours consistently standing at around 90, the system needs to make up the work somehow and will compact duties into tight blocks if people are requesting large chunks of days off. The question is, therefore, are we in danger of having these 'unlimited' days off restricted again in light of this accident if fatigue is indeed cited as a factor? While the hourly schedules are as high as they are, it's almost impossible NOT to have fatigue inducing rosters if some of us want to get blocks of days off to commute.
Just a thought.
Harry
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Harry, this isn't a commuting job. Im not a company man by any means, but they go through great lengths to make sure you don't commute. Harry, sometimes i agree with you, but here i do not. The fatigue issue involves safety and includes everyone (unless you're that robot that the "SAFE" system uses). Being able to string days off so you can commute and not be too tired to operate is the problem of a select few. If you want to commute, GET A COMMUTING JOB. They're out there. Time to realize whats on the menu and not order the Filet Mignon at McDonalds.
Aluminium Shuffle... I would love to chat about unions, but there will never be a union here, for obvious reasons.
Aluminium Shuffle... I would love to chat about unions, but there will never be a union here, for obvious reasons.
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CaptainChipotle
The 'us' was a generic reference. I'm fortunate that it's not applicable in my situation as I don't commute. I do, however, agree with you 100% that it was never designed to be a commuting career in EK but that doesn't mean to say that pilots are not going to do so. Unfortunately, several of our colleagues have gone through divorces with ex spouses now 'back home' with the kids. I think it would be unreasonable to expect anyone of us not to want to spend time with their children, hence the desire for some to bid for multiple blocks of days off.
Yes, the vast majority of us joined knowing the gig but for some who's circumstances have changed, their only priority now is seeing their growing children as often as possible. This is perhaps also the reason why some are leaving to return back to lesser paid jobs. The colleague I referred to in my earlier post with 7 days off is in this exact situation. I can't see him lasting more than another few years at most.
Harry
The 'us' was a generic reference. I'm fortunate that it's not applicable in my situation as I don't commute. I do, however, agree with you 100% that it was never designed to be a commuting career in EK but that doesn't mean to say that pilots are not going to do so. Unfortunately, several of our colleagues have gone through divorces with ex spouses now 'back home' with the kids. I think it would be unreasonable to expect anyone of us not to want to spend time with their children, hence the desire for some to bid for multiple blocks of days off.
Yes, the vast majority of us joined knowing the gig but for some who's circumstances have changed, their only priority now is seeing their growing children as often as possible. This is perhaps also the reason why some are leaving to return back to lesser paid jobs. The colleague I referred to in my earlier post with 7 days off is in this exact situation. I can't see him lasting more than another few years at most.
Harry