FZ whistleblower goes to media - EK next?
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FZ whistleblower goes to media - EK next?
And so the onion starts to be peeled.
Purely passing on public info -
https://www.rt.com/news/336514-flydubai-pilots-fatigue-crash/
Purely passing on public info -
https://www.rt.com/news/336514-flydubai-pilots-fatigue-crash/
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stay tuned, more on the way. RT keep updating their site as more guys write and call in:
https://www.rt.com/news/336823-pilot...-leak-fatigue/
https://www.rt.com/news/336823-pilot...-leak-fatigue/
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EGGY1, the issue with something like fatigue is that it is difficult to quantify. No one is gong to step up, especially in an organized manner, in this part of the world.
In fact it is COMMENDABLE after the fact!! Whistle blower legislation around the world began to PROTECT the whistleblower since, historically, when there was no protection they were often punished with no recourse. That doesn't exist in the ME. Many leave and simply stay quite because no one listens anyway, there is no recourse and now that they have left there is even less incentive.
It takes a serious accident for anyone to listen.
In fact it is COMMENDABLE after the fact!! Whistle blower legislation around the world began to PROTECT the whistleblower since, historically, when there was no protection they were often punished with no recourse. That doesn't exist in the ME. Many leave and simply stay quite because no one listens anyway, there is no recourse and now that they have left there is even less incentive.
It takes a serious accident for anyone to listen.
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..mediatic machine in motion to ush rumors of fatigue..
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So FZ responds stating they "strictly adhere" to FTL rules.
http://www.arabianbusiness.com/flydubai-says-its-pilots-strictly-follow-flying-duty-time-rules-625776.html#.VvOIAPDXerU
Can EK say the same? Not according to preflight timeline which is a complete abuse of the OMA.
GCAA Where are you?
I'm not alone in believing It's only a matter of time before we're next.
http://www.arabianbusiness.com/flydubai-says-its-pilots-strictly-follow-flying-duty-time-rules-625776.html#.VvOIAPDXerU
Can EK say the same? Not according to preflight timeline which is a complete abuse of the OMA.
GCAA Where are you?
I'm not alone in believing It's only a matter of time before we're next.
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I'm curious WRT pre flight timelines. What do other company's do . My previous company was 1.5 show time and duty started then. As a professional I would always plan to show up early which would account for poss traffic delays . I lived 1hr 15 min away and would leave home 3 hours prior to departure .
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Fatty
The rub is the combination of duty in time combined with number of pilots on certain sector lengths and layover time.
My previous carrier, a long hauler, had minus 1 hour BUT anything over 8hrs - 3 pilots, anything over 11hrs - 4 pilots. And of course all ULRs had a minimum of 36 HR layovers (90% 48h) An acceptable balance.
If we were T -minus 90 here a lot of those grueling Asian returns, long day/night turns ETC would mandate an extra relief pilot.
It's just always pushing the envelope with manning and layover length that is burning the guys out.
It's a cheese hole.
The rub is the combination of duty in time combined with number of pilots on certain sector lengths and layover time.
My previous carrier, a long hauler, had minus 1 hour BUT anything over 8hrs - 3 pilots, anything over 11hrs - 4 pilots. And of course all ULRs had a minimum of 36 HR layovers (90% 48h) An acceptable balance.
If we were T -minus 90 here a lot of those grueling Asian returns, long day/night turns ETC would mandate an extra relief pilot.
It's just always pushing the envelope with manning and layover length that is burning the guys out.
It's a cheese hole.
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EGGY, no offense, but with only two posts both of the same gist I get the sense you don't really know how it "works" (if I can call it that) in the Middle East or other regions outside of areas with legitimate reporting/legal systems.
Trader is correct - it's terrible that it took loss of life to be the catalyst, but it absolutely is commendable that anyone would step forward when there are zero protections, whilst at the same time possible dire consequences, for doing so.
I for one am happy to provide any legitimate news agency or regulator with any amount of information regarding rostering practices at EK. And yeah, I have a lot. Do I think it will actually change anything? Who knows. It's not exactly a fair fight. But it's heartening to see the amount of will to try and expose the practices of the ME3 to the world that is starting to appear.
Trader is correct - it's terrible that it took loss of life to be the catalyst, but it absolutely is commendable that anyone would step forward when there are zero protections, whilst at the same time possible dire consequences, for doing so.
I for one am happy to provide any legitimate news agency or regulator with any amount of information regarding rostering practices at EK. And yeah, I have a lot. Do I think it will actually change anything? Who knows. It's not exactly a fair fight. But it's heartening to see the amount of will to try and expose the practices of the ME3 to the world that is starting to appear.
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Many of the Far Eastern airlines who employ expats on commuting contracts have been using the FTLs as a target for decades.
I stand to be corrected, but I believe KAL require 80 stick hours per month, and as the 777 and 744 pilots fly mainly ULR, they tend to accumulate a lot of hours in the aircraft in order to achieve this, > 120 hours per month on average.
Both Taiwanese outfits operate to a different set of rules, but 900 stick hours is the target. There is no rolling total in Taiwan. If on Dec 31 one has accumulated 900 hours, Jan 1 one is back to zero. Same story month to month.
My point is that all these outfits are following the laws of their land and the FAA, EASA, etc, etc, etc don't care as long as they do so.
It's the same in the ME. It might not seem fair or reasonable that we fly such tiring rosters, but as long as the outfits here operate within the confines of their respective OM-As, they're bullet proof.
The onus is on the crews to call SKF(sick fatigue).
I stand to be corrected, but I believe KAL require 80 stick hours per month, and as the 777 and 744 pilots fly mainly ULR, they tend to accumulate a lot of hours in the aircraft in order to achieve this, > 120 hours per month on average.
Both Taiwanese outfits operate to a different set of rules, but 900 stick hours is the target. There is no rolling total in Taiwan. If on Dec 31 one has accumulated 900 hours, Jan 1 one is back to zero. Same story month to month.
My point is that all these outfits are following the laws of their land and the FAA, EASA, etc, etc, etc don't care as long as they do so.
It's the same in the ME. It might not seem fair or reasonable that we fly such tiring rosters, but as long as the outfits here operate within the confines of their respective OM-As, they're bullet proof.
The onus is on the crews to call SKF(sick fatigue).
Last edited by nakbin330; 24th Mar 2016 at 10:55.
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Nabkin - the point is they don't work within the confines as you will see if you wait to go through eGATE at 60 prior.
They're rigging the preflight and grabbing an extra approvpx 30mins per duty.
Contrary to what Harry says - you cannot wait until 60 prior to go through without hearing about it.
I had dealings with ex ACPB (since gone) specifically over this issue.
It's one thing to have to do it - but to not even get paid for it is while we are already in OT is an added insult
They're rigging the preflight and grabbing an extra approvpx 30mins per duty.
Contrary to what Harry says - you cannot wait until 60 prior to go through without hearing about it.
I had dealings with ex ACPB (since gone) specifically over this issue.
It's one thing to have to do it - but to not even get paid for it is while we are already in OT is an added insult
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Even BBC is now getting reports from former Pilots
FlyDubai crash pilot 'was due to leave job over fatigue' - BBC News
FlyDubai crash pilot 'was due to leave job over fatigue' - BBC News
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Nabkin - the point is they don't work within the confines as you will see if you wait to go through eGATE at 60 prior.
They're rigging the preflight and grabbing an extra approvpx 30mins per duty.
Contrary to what Harry says - you cannot wait until 60 prior to go through without hearing about it.
I had dealings with ex ACPB (since gone) specifically over this issue.
It's one thing to have to do it - but to not even get paid for it is while we are already in OT is an added insult
They're rigging the preflight and grabbing an extra approvpx 30mins per duty.
Contrary to what Harry says - you cannot wait until 60 prior to go through without hearing about it.
I had dealings with ex ACPB (since gone) specifically over this issue.
It's one thing to have to do it - but to not even get paid for it is while we are already in OT is an added insult
The GCAA are not going to let this issue land in their lap, in my opinion, and should push come to shove, I believe our duty start time will be pushed back to 1:30, by the company, as more and more interested parties stick their noses in.
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Wall Street Jounal
Found the link to the mentioned WS article from 2015 just as a reminder
Pilot Workload at Emirates Under Question - WSJ
Pilot Workload at Emirates Under Question - WSJ
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The Real Numbers
The National article is misleading. The UAE GCAA regulations allow a pilot to work up to 60 hours duty in 7 days. It's there in black and white. That's almost 9 hrs a day every day for 7 days at any time of day or night.
The media (with help from the airlines) confuse flying hours with working hours. There is much work to be done before, after and in between flights. Few other industries demand this and certainly airline office staff only work 40 hours in 7 days. Of course a pilot will be fatigued if pushed toward the 60 hour limit in a noisy, vibrating, excessively dry, oxygen reduced and often stressful environment. Airlines in the UAE push these limits. The public must be made aware that their family may be flying with the pilots near the end of a 60 hour week.
It's appropriate to correct the media and the public with the true numbers of how much work a pilot can be pushed to do .
60 a week or 190 in 28 days. That's up to 2470 hours a year.
Those are the facts.
Even the public can see these limits are excessive, dangerous and plainly wrong.
The media (with help from the airlines) confuse flying hours with working hours. There is much work to be done before, after and in between flights. Few other industries demand this and certainly airline office staff only work 40 hours in 7 days. Of course a pilot will be fatigued if pushed toward the 60 hour limit in a noisy, vibrating, excessively dry, oxygen reduced and often stressful environment. Airlines in the UAE push these limits. The public must be made aware that their family may be flying with the pilots near the end of a 60 hour week.
It's appropriate to correct the media and the public with the true numbers of how much work a pilot can be pushed to do .
60 a week or 190 in 28 days. That's up to 2470 hours a year.
Those are the facts.
Even the public can see these limits are excessive, dangerous and plainly wrong.
Last edited by disconnected; 24th Mar 2016 at 16:27.
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Yes EK is next.
See our report : https://www.rt.com/news/337128-emira...tigue-scandal/
Please if anyone wants to talk to us - contact me at [email protected]
We are really concerned about the welfare of pilots by making them fly unreasonable and fatigue-inducing schedules. We treat all information with the utmost confidentiality.
Please contact Paula Slier at [email protected]
See our report : https://www.rt.com/news/337128-emira...tigue-scandal/
Please if anyone wants to talk to us - contact me at [email protected]
We are really concerned about the welfare of pilots by making them fly unreasonable and fatigue-inducing schedules. We treat all information with the utmost confidentiality.
Please contact Paula Slier at [email protected]
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Exactly how many pilots have "disappeared" in the UAE? I'm not talking about those who "resigned" down route.
The only one I can think of was the alleged personal pilot of a certain wanted person and I don't think he's under a sand dune!
The only way things will change is facts. i.e. Factoring of flight time was ONLY ever intended for licensing, to ensure a pilot accumulated a required amount of time and experience before being issued a "higher" license. It was never intended to be used for flight time limitations.
The only one I can think of was the alleged personal pilot of a certain wanted person and I don't think he's under a sand dune!
The only way things will change is facts. i.e. Factoring of flight time was ONLY ever intended for licensing, to ensure a pilot accumulated a required amount of time and experience before being issued a "higher" license. It was never intended to be used for flight time limitations.
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missing persons
HD, try googling for the recent case of Canadian citizen detained in UAE without charges. Or read the US State Department report on human rights in the UAE. People disappear every year.
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The National article is misleading. The UAE GCAA regulations allow a pilot to work up to 60 hours duty in 7 days. It's there in black and white. That's almost 9 hrs a day every day for 7 days at any time of day or night.
The media (with help from the airlines) confuse flying hours with working hours. There is much work to be done before, after and in between flights. Few other industries demand this and certainly airline office staff only work 40 hours in 7 days. Of course a pilot will be fatigued if pushed toward the 60 hour limit in a noisy, vibrating, excessively dry, oxygen reduced and often stressful environment. Airlines in the UAE push these limits. The public must be made aware that their family may be flying with the pilots near the end of a 60 hour week.
It's appropriate to correct the media and the public with the true numbers of how much work a pilot can be pushed to do .
60 a week or 190 in 28 days. That's up to 2470 hours a year.
Those are the facts.
Even the public can see these limits are excessive, dangerous and plainly wrong.
The media (with help from the airlines) confuse flying hours with working hours. There is much work to be done before, after and in between flights. Few other industries demand this and certainly airline office staff only work 40 hours in 7 days. Of course a pilot will be fatigued if pushed toward the 60 hour limit in a noisy, vibrating, excessively dry, oxygen reduced and often stressful environment. Airlines in the UAE push these limits. The public must be made aware that their family may be flying with the pilots near the end of a 60 hour week.
It's appropriate to correct the media and the public with the true numbers of how much work a pilot can be pushed to do .
60 a week or 190 in 28 days. That's up to 2470 hours a year.
Those are the facts.
Even the public can see these limits are excessive, dangerous and plainly wrong.
It is also important to consider what kind of flying makes up those hours. 90 hours long-haul vs short-haul vs regional are quite different. Each has its positives and negatives. When the 90 hours can encompass all 3 types in one month it creates a schedule unlike any other. More days worked with less time to recover between duties.
Now also consider how much of that work is back side of the clock and it paints a very different picture again.
So while it may be " legal" it doesn't make such schedules advisable.