Why should you stay?
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just a thought
A.phlegm.med
Rather than extol what you see as the benefits of the job ....
Listen & change the conditions that will keep the key personnel, ex. pilots. Those are the people that actually complete the task of getting people from A to B after all the hard work of planning, marketing, sales, etc.
A carefully crafted brand can be tarnished by the loss of key personnel.
As you say "Take a step back, look at the big picture and choose wisely"
CK
Rather than extol what you see as the benefits of the job ....
Listen & change the conditions that will keep the key personnel, ex. pilots. Those are the people that actually complete the task of getting people from A to B after all the hard work of planning, marketing, sales, etc.
A carefully crafted brand can be tarnished by the loss of key personnel.
As you say "Take a step back, look at the big picture and choose wisely"
CK
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APM
Sounds horrific! I would leave! Big picture says you would be crazy to stay. A lot of those things on your list you are just trading for other problems if you came to EK though. It would all depend on what problems bother you more. Six legs a day. Or six night turns. Same same but different. Almost everything on your list has a doppleganger at EK.
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"Six legs a day. Or six night turns. Same same but different."
With respect I think 5 days of 4/6 sectors around the various dumps of Italy and Greece, not serviced by ILS' and certainly not serviced by good ATC is going to be much more taxing than 6 night turns with ample free coffee and opportunities for a bit of controlled rest.
With respect I think 5 days of 4/6 sectors around the various dumps of Italy and Greece, not serviced by ILS' and certainly not serviced by good ATC is going to be much more taxing than 6 night turns with ample free coffee and opportunities for a bit of controlled rest.
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.......of which 120 feet can't quite think of any right now or just can't be bothered.
APM
Unfortunately, whilst there is no doubt serious issues here relating to hours/rosters and leave, compared to a lot of other outfits, our moans and gripes probably seem pitiful. Thankfully for us however is the need to double the number of pilots and cabin crew within the next 10 years and not only attract newbies, but retain current staff. If that wasn't the case, we'd be sliding further down the scale each year to join you. It's from Companies like yours that we're getting many applications and guys join here feeling they've won the lottery.
But, I will agree with 120 feet in that over time and if certain conditions play out, the new shiny toy syndrome quickly wears thin. Wrong school, wrong villa, wrong fleet, wrong investments and wrong wife. It's a reality for some and it's not pretty!
Harry
APM
Unfortunately, whilst there is no doubt serious issues here relating to hours/rosters and leave, compared to a lot of other outfits, our moans and gripes probably seem pitiful. Thankfully for us however is the need to double the number of pilots and cabin crew within the next 10 years and not only attract newbies, but retain current staff. If that wasn't the case, we'd be sliding further down the scale each year to join you. It's from Companies like yours that we're getting many applications and guys join here feeling they've won the lottery.
But, I will agree with 120 feet in that over time and if certain conditions play out, the new shiny toy syndrome quickly wears thin. Wrong school, wrong villa, wrong fleet, wrong investments and wrong wife. It's a reality for some and it's not pretty!
Harry
Join Date: Aug 2015
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Wow!
Now and then I have a read on pprune, just to see how things are going in Europe and the ME, my old "love"
.
Sad if that what is written here is really true. I considered EK for a long time the only "good" place in the ME(my opinion).
Have been a lot of years ago with QR as a captain on a widebody, then decided that I had enough of their BS and went back to Europe, flying big biz jets(yep, QR made me do that).
After a lot of years on GA side of flying I seriously considered moving back to airlines, considered EK. Even got an interview date already, but what I read here does not really make me confident to move my family back to the ME.
Apart from starting again on the "wrong" seat(isn't right always wrong
) what would have been ok for me(have been captain now for a long, loong time) considering the long term advantages of EK(sorry, I thought at least so) over a more or less uneventful biz jet career.
But reading some threads and what I heard as well from some very nice people via PM doesn't fill me with confidency that I would stand EK(if passing even the interview) in the long run.
I had all what was mentioned here already in QR - bad rosters, always some "mafia" running fleet upgrades or for the SO and FO - upgrades, always nightflying, always having leave cancelled or not given at the last moment, never getting your famous 4 days off in a row, lousy housing, spying and reported by FA's(for asking for O-Juice, dates,or shortbread) and always being monitored for every Sh*t that may happen, even the most minor one.
It seems EK took somewhere the wrong turn and applies QR(ish) procedures to their employees.
I am more and more considering to even not waste good 6-7 days of my life(instead of being with my family) to attend that interview because most likely, even if I would pass, I would decide against EK(all the other ME carriers are anyway a "no-go" for me).
In my present company we do operate quiet a lot of aircraft, doing worldwide flights. Huge pilot force(small if compared to EK), muliple fleets, airline SOP's and Standards(I should know that having seen both worlds over a long period). Still they surprise me by being - human. Had a fight about my roster for next month with Planning, 2 days later one of the bosses rings me and asks if everything is ok and what went on with planning(i did not tell him, they did).
Still he ensured me he will help and look into it. Never would have happen in QR(you couldn't even reach planning, not lifting phone or answering emails, door always locked, if you knock, they would not open) and it seems as well not in EK.
Another thing that makes me think and reconsider. Even that you guys laught at us(now) flying our tiny (compared to a 330/777) jet and being lousy paid in comparison to an EK Capt.
BUT - as many said already, here and in other threads, the aircraft and pay is not the ultimate goal(or should be, we know all this guys which would just kill to get a rating on a shiny, heavy jet - I do know a few) in a pilots life.
It is family, time with them at a place that everybody can enjoy, working for someone that might be not the biggest and nicest company, but they have a heart and a soul and sometimes try to understand what their employee wants(of course it always depends which kind of employee you have been over the last couple of years). But most of us need a good amount of years to realize what is really important in life. At least I did, took me lots of thousand of flying hours, a lot of companies, 2 kids to realize that.
So, thanks for this thread, and some of the others here in the ME forum. I was wondering already about the significantly lower entry requirements when I submitted my application 2 months ago. I think I know now why they went down on that. Sadly not a good sign.
Now and then I have a read on pprune, just to see how things are going in Europe and the ME, my old "love"
.Sad if that what is written here is really true. I considered EK for a long time the only "good" place in the ME(my opinion).
Have been a lot of years ago with QR as a captain on a widebody, then decided that I had enough of their BS and went back to Europe, flying big biz jets(yep, QR made me do that).
After a lot of years on GA side of flying I seriously considered moving back to airlines, considered EK. Even got an interview date already, but what I read here does not really make me confident to move my family back to the ME.
Apart from starting again on the "wrong" seat(isn't right always wrong
) what would have been ok for me(have been captain now for a long, loong time) considering the long term advantages of EK(sorry, I thought at least so) over a more or less uneventful biz jet career.But reading some threads and what I heard as well from some very nice people via PM doesn't fill me with confidency that I would stand EK(if passing even the interview) in the long run.
I had all what was mentioned here already in QR - bad rosters, always some "mafia" running fleet upgrades or for the SO and FO - upgrades, always nightflying, always having leave cancelled or not given at the last moment, never getting your famous 4 days off in a row, lousy housing, spying and reported by FA's(for asking for O-Juice, dates,or shortbread) and always being monitored for every Sh*t that may happen, even the most minor one.
It seems EK took somewhere the wrong turn and applies QR(ish) procedures to their employees.
I am more and more considering to even not waste good 6-7 days of my life(instead of being with my family) to attend that interview because most likely, even if I would pass, I would decide against EK(all the other ME carriers are anyway a "no-go" for me).
In my present company we do operate quiet a lot of aircraft, doing worldwide flights. Huge pilot force(small if compared to EK), muliple fleets, airline SOP's and Standards(I should know that having seen both worlds over a long period). Still they surprise me by being - human. Had a fight about my roster for next month with Planning, 2 days later one of the bosses rings me and asks if everything is ok and what went on with planning(i did not tell him, they did).
Still he ensured me he will help and look into it. Never would have happen in QR(you couldn't even reach planning, not lifting phone or answering emails, door always locked, if you knock, they would not open) and it seems as well not in EK.
Another thing that makes me think and reconsider. Even that you guys laught at us(now) flying our tiny (compared to a 330/777) jet and being lousy paid in comparison to an EK Capt.
BUT - as many said already, here and in other threads, the aircraft and pay is not the ultimate goal(or should be, we know all this guys which would just kill to get a rating on a shiny, heavy jet - I do know a few) in a pilots life.
It is family, time with them at a place that everybody can enjoy, working for someone that might be not the biggest and nicest company, but they have a heart and a soul and sometimes try to understand what their employee wants(of course it always depends which kind of employee you have been over the last couple of years
). But most of us need a good amount of years to realize what is really important in life. At least I did, took me lots of thousand of flying hours, a lot of companies, 2 kids to realize that.So, thanks for this thread, and some of the others here in the ME forum. I was wondering already about the significantly lower entry requirements when I submitted my application 2 months ago. I think I know now why they went down on that. Sadly not a good sign.
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A.phlegm.med
Many of us in EK including myself have had to 'rough' it along the way to where we are now. Many of us have worked for some unscrupulous operators in some dubious places around the world, doing stuff in aeroplanes that would scare us fartless nowadays.
We can only compare EK to other large full service wide body operators, as that is where the bench mark gets set for what the terms and conditions should be.
Many of us in EK including myself have had to 'rough' it along the way to where we are now. Many of us have worked for some unscrupulous operators in some dubious places around the world, doing stuff in aeroplanes that would scare us fartless nowadays.
We can only compare EK to other large full service wide body operators, as that is where the bench mark gets set for what the terms and conditions should be.
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@Emma Royds
Don't get me wrong, I understand that fully, have been there and had many collegues in QR in the same position.
I don't think we get scared but if pax sometimes would have known what is going on with "their" aircraft they probably would never enter an A/C again for the rest of their life.
However, I resigned from jobs already if I got the impression that they do not play nicely in terms of mx or duty restrictions. Got fired once because I reported myself to authorities for multiple duty times violations by the company. And that in (Western)Europe. So far about that...Well, it was no big loss company and collegue wise...
I have met a lot of desperate guys who consider the ME or Turkey(!) a nice and save environment(no offence), so I know that perspectives are often quiet different.
I am sure that as well the majority of EK pilots are still quiet happy with their job, but that's probably a majority that is not counting for me any my background and for my homecountry(again, please, no offence).
I met a lot of very(very, very, very) happy people back in my QR days, but again, some of them came from a very different background and QR was like a lottery win for them(as is EK for many, I am sure).
With my current employer I am relatively often in Dubai, that's where I got the idea it might be a clever idea to try EK. I like Dubai, but after talking a bit with my wife(yeah, she is the clever one ;-) ) about it and doing some self reflecting it is one thing to VISIT a place or being stuck there for a decade(and career wise that is a timeframe that you must consider to stick with one employer). Not to forget my Doha experience which was, let's call it nicely, interesting.
Don't get me wrong, I understand that fully, have been there and had many collegues in QR in the same position.
I don't think we get scared but if pax sometimes would have known what is going on with "their" aircraft they probably would never enter an A/C again for the rest of their life.
However, I resigned from jobs already if I got the impression that they do not play nicely in terms of mx or duty restrictions. Got fired once because I reported myself to authorities for multiple duty times violations by the company. And that in (Western)Europe. So far about that...Well, it was no big loss company and collegue wise...
I have met a lot of desperate guys who consider the ME or Turkey(!) a nice and save environment(no offence), so I know that perspectives are often quiet different.
I am sure that as well the majority of EK pilots are still quiet happy with their job, but that's probably a majority that is not counting for me any my background and for my homecountry(again, please, no offence).
I met a lot of very(very, very, very) happy people back in my QR days, but again, some of them came from a very different background and QR was like a lottery win for them(as is EK for many, I am sure).
With my current employer I am relatively often in Dubai, that's where I got the idea it might be a clever idea to try EK. I like Dubai, but after talking a bit with my wife(yeah, she is the clever one ;-) ) about it and doing some self reflecting it is one thing to VISIT a place or being stuck there for a decade(and career wise that is a timeframe that you must consider to stick with one employer). Not to forget my Doha experience which was, let's call it nicely, interesting.
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Well - if it needs to be a widebody(I seriously don't care, my airplane ends behind the cockpit, 
) operator then again EK is maybe not the worst choice. Consider a tax free salary plus all the other deductions that you may have to pay of your salary when back in Europe.
Or, of course, there is China. Brr. Have been flying there, always glad to be out again. Don't know what is worse, ME or China. Most likely based on personal preference, but I hate flying in China. But there is the even bigger money then the ME at the moment, depending which aircraft you are flying. Other advantage, most China Operators offer commuting contracts and I guess that is the place to be at the moment for a lot of guys(and girls) leaving the ME.
I see the plus in livestyle - huge paycheck and still a decent time at a place you want to be.
Widebody Operators in Europe - well. If you join most carriers of decent size you start as a FO (don't know about the present BA deal). And then normally it is not 5-7 years to command, it is minimum 10 years +++. Plus never forget high tax in most of the western european countries.
If it has to be Widebody it may not a wise idea to leave, except China(or FO). If it could be as well a Narrow Body, then Europe is absolutely the place to be(and pay
).
Life is full of choices. And at the very end you will know if you did the right ones for yourself.
) operator then again EK is maybe not the worst choice. Consider a tax free salary plus all the other deductions that you may have to pay of your salary when back in Europe.Or, of course, there is China. Brr. Have been flying there, always glad to be out again. Don't know what is worse, ME or China. Most likely based on personal preference, but I hate flying in China. But there is the even bigger money then the ME at the moment, depending which aircraft you are flying. Other advantage, most China Operators offer commuting contracts and I guess that is the place to be at the moment for a lot of guys(and girls) leaving the ME.
I see the plus in livestyle - huge paycheck and still a decent time at a place you want to be.
Widebody Operators in Europe - well. If you join most carriers of decent size you start as a FO (don't know about the present BA deal). And then normally it is not 5-7 years to command, it is minimum 10 years +++. Plus never forget high tax in most of the western european countries.
If it has to be Widebody it may not a wise idea to leave, except China(or FO). If it could be as well a Narrow Body, then Europe is absolutely the place to be(and pay
). Life is full of choices. And at the very end you will know if you did the right ones for yourself.
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The vast majority of us don't care what we fly but to compare EK to a short haul only or regional operator is not a just comparison for many reasons.
EK has not hit the gutter yet but it is the continuous decline that is the bugbear of many.
EK has not hit the gutter yet but it is the continuous decline that is the bugbear of many.
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Sally
Terrible ATC. No ILS?!?! Performance limited runways. How do you guys do it. You may be thinking of only EK 380 fleet when you look at where we fly. ANY Europe flight would be the top bid destination on our fleet. ANY. Free coffee or not. BTW if it's free coffee you want. This is indeed the place for you. (There's free crisps and nuts too.) But don't tell anyone.
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Sally--sorry, but not even close! Did the 4-6 turns a 'day'. After a year of night flights, 90 plus (last while 100+ months) of night turns along with ULR's and day out/night back flights you won't feel human. Ask any of the pilots who have left how good they now feel.
You won't get much controlled rest on a night turn in any case!
Many of the Ryan Air guys are unhappy here as well and I know several who are looking to leave. A handful have gone back to Ryan Air but most are looking at other alternatives.
Terrible ATS---well that is a large part of the network - especially if you are small bus.
You won't get much controlled rest on a night turn in any case!
Many of the Ryan Air guys are unhappy here as well and I know several who are looking to leave. A handful have gone back to Ryan Air but most are looking at other alternatives.
Terrible ATS---well that is a large part of the network - especially if you are small bus.
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Fair point trader.
Having previously worked nights I know how rubbish it makes you feel.
6 in a row would probably not be too bad as a relatively consistent sleep pattern could be established for the week, but if its a night turn followed by a day and a night, a ULR then more night turns then that sounds horrendous.
Funny... The roster pattern they showed at the roadshow didn't seem too bad!! (yes, I know, they're not going to show potential joiners a shower of 5hiht)
Having previously worked nights I know how rubbish it makes you feel.
6 in a row would probably not be too bad as a relatively consistent sleep pattern could be established for the week, but if its a night turn followed by a day and a night, a ULR then more night turns then that sounds horrendous.
Funny... The roster pattern they showed at the roadshow didn't seem too bad!! (yes, I know, they're not going to show potential joiners a shower of 5hiht)
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Some people are unhappy whatever they're doing. To compare EK conditions to RYR conditions is ludicrous. There are many parallels, but anyone going back to RYR for reasons other than family necessity is a fool.
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Aluminium. Bit of a strong statement there. Some people might prefer a stable roster and sleeping home every night, as opposed to the current state of affairs here.. Yes the salary is considerably lower, but should you happen to be based where you want to, and focus on living your life rather than work. Who's the fool?
End of the day there is no perfect job, and everyone value different aspects of life.
End of the day there is no perfect job, and everyone value different aspects of life.
