If you're considering EK take the time for a read:
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: New England
Posts: 55
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Getting rid of our pensions was a pilot voted on decision. Bymonek says 99% wouldn't have voted for that but 65% of the pilots did exactly that, they voted to get rid of our pensions.
The pilot pension fund went to the PBGC which is the government liability fund, not Delta management. When you say Delta management walk away with mansions in the Hamptons you really don't know what you are talking about.
Yes we as Delta pilots had it good before the pay cuts but our labor costs were well over 40% and that is just not sustainable. Our labor costs are down around 35-36% now and the airline is really thriving. What's Emirates labor costs, 15%?
The new 401k program and bonus system while very generous does not make up for the pension lost but the company is better off and so are we. The pilots that were close to retirement got an equity distribution that helped aleve their pain. It doesn't come close to losing over $2 million in A and B fund distributions though.
When you say we took it up the ass that might be true in a micro sense but the only thing we don't have now is our pensions. We have very good pay, excellent work rules and an enjoyable work environment. I don't know what more we could ask for except our defined benefit package which is going the way of the dodo bird. Emirates does not have a pension plan either. Your Provident fund pays 12% our 401K pays 16%.
Everything that happened to us was voted on in diolouge and talks between us and the company which the same can not be said for you guys. If we got screwed I don't know where we are lacking when it comes to a current pilot contract. We just turned down a TA that would have paid our wide body captains well over $300,000 a year to work 10 days a month. Plus we have work rules.
Delta ain't perfect but it isn't Emirates either.
The pilot pension fund went to the PBGC which is the government liability fund, not Delta management. When you say Delta management walk away with mansions in the Hamptons you really don't know what you are talking about.
Yes we as Delta pilots had it good before the pay cuts but our labor costs were well over 40% and that is just not sustainable. Our labor costs are down around 35-36% now and the airline is really thriving. What's Emirates labor costs, 15%?
The new 401k program and bonus system while very generous does not make up for the pension lost but the company is better off and so are we. The pilots that were close to retirement got an equity distribution that helped aleve their pain. It doesn't come close to losing over $2 million in A and B fund distributions though.
When you say we took it up the ass that might be true in a micro sense but the only thing we don't have now is our pensions. We have very good pay, excellent work rules and an enjoyable work environment. I don't know what more we could ask for except our defined benefit package which is going the way of the dodo bird. Emirates does not have a pension plan either. Your Provident fund pays 12% our 401K pays 16%.
Everything that happened to us was voted on in diolouge and talks between us and the company which the same can not be said for you guys. If we got screwed I don't know where we are lacking when it comes to a current pilot contract. We just turned down a TA that would have paid our wide body captains well over $300,000 a year to work 10 days a month. Plus we have work rules.
Delta ain't perfect but it isn't Emirates either.
short flights long nights
And Tomcat, that is where Harry looses the argument. $ 300000 a year, work 10 days a month, with work rules.
Fact, end, over.
Fact, end, over.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: US
Posts: 2,205
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
AA has a couple of new hires who are former EK 777 CA's . They start at the bottom at around $65K.
Everyone makes decisions that are hopefully in their best long term interest. For them EK 777 CA was not the answer.
Everyone makes decisions that are hopefully in their best long term interest. For them EK 777 CA was not the answer.
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: MIDDLE EAST
Posts: 1,035
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SOPS
Not sure why you're dragging my name into that last post, shouldn't you be directing that at another poster.
You are right though, I do not earn $300k. Monthly net figures are around 19K with accommodation allowance. Include schooling allowance and that rises to $22k. Senior trainers will be taking almost $30k a month. I think that easily compares with Delta's pay scale, don't you. What you also fail to realise is that these figures are far more achievable to a larger number of pilots in a far quicker time frame than Delta pilots. You're probably quoting very senior guys with 20-25 years plus, and that's before tax is taken into account. I'm not even close to 15 years.
We may be working hard but the salary, as I've stated numerous times before and will continue to state, is actually pretty good. The T&C's comparison between the two airlines, however, is a different story altogether. That's the rub, not the money. Quality of life is the number one priority and in the current situation, it does not appear to be getting any better soon hence so many people looking to leave.....and doing so.
And for the record Tomcat, nice post. Only correction to make is that after 10 years here, EK contributes 15% of salary to our Provident Fund.
Harry
Not sure why you're dragging my name into that last post, shouldn't you be directing that at another poster.
You are right though, I do not earn $300k. Monthly net figures are around 19K with accommodation allowance. Include schooling allowance and that rises to $22k. Senior trainers will be taking almost $30k a month. I think that easily compares with Delta's pay scale, don't you. What you also fail to realise is that these figures are far more achievable to a larger number of pilots in a far quicker time frame than Delta pilots. You're probably quoting very senior guys with 20-25 years plus, and that's before tax is taken into account. I'm not even close to 15 years.
We may be working hard but the salary, as I've stated numerous times before and will continue to state, is actually pretty good. The T&C's comparison between the two airlines, however, is a different story altogether. That's the rub, not the money. Quality of life is the number one priority and in the current situation, it does not appear to be getting any better soon hence so many people looking to leave.....and doing so.
And for the record Tomcat, nice post. Only correction to make is that after 10 years here, EK contributes 15% of salary to our Provident Fund.
Harry
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: New England
Posts: 55
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If it is so good Harry why are so pilots leaving Emirates and none joining?
Your DEC program is attracting no one that is a widebody captain which suggests the current widebody pilots are better off where they are currently flying.
It is good for you. Look at the research and decide what 90 plus hard time hours does to your health. You might be making good money for you but what does that get you when you are dead at 55 or have a heart attack before 50.
The stress of living in the Middle East, flying over 900 hours a year, and putting up with what your company does to you has to contribute to the decaying health of the Emirates pilot.
Your DEC program is attracting no one that is a widebody captain which suggests the current widebody pilots are better off where they are currently flying.
It is good for you. Look at the research and decide what 90 plus hard time hours does to your health. You might be making good money for you but what does that get you when you are dead at 55 or have a heart attack before 50.
The stress of living in the Middle East, flying over 900 hours a year, and putting up with what your company does to you has to contribute to the decaying health of the Emirates pilot.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sandy beach
Posts: 430
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Exhausted pilots tell Cathay Pacific their growing workloads are a threat to flight safety | South China Morning Post
They have tighter restrictions than EK.
This should be forwarded to EK management.
They have tighter restrictions than EK.
This should be forwarded to EK management.
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: earth
Posts: 1,098
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Harry
True. If you add up housing and schooling allowances to compare UAE to USA salaries, then be fair and compare what you can get in the respective environement with the said. It then easily evens out the incumbent taxes.
This is for all the dreamers out there believing the “no tax” fairy tale in the pit.
In the end you’re right, it comes down to QOL and if you can cope with it in the pit, good for you.
Most of us though have a problem with the “punish first, then assess later” brain wiring of the management around here (it exempts themselves and locals, naturally).
This is particularly serious when you want to leave. You are regarded as potential criminal until you have cleared each and every bs step imposed by employer, banks, administration, telecom company and so forth. Any slip or unintended omission will either block you here, impound all your belongings or cost you in an unaccountaed whimp the huge deposit asked throughout that oh so tolerant and civilised society (not).
I can somehow understand the attraction of what is whispered by EK, we all got tied up by it. What eludes me is that back then when we came along, there was very little bad news about EK, they seemed quite civilised (the change is almost unbelievable!!), but today there is an abundance of warnings and sad stories easily verifiable about the cr@p happening around here.
So why are there still guys applying?
First I do understand that there are similarly bad carreers out there and a change to the presumed better always has its moths flying into the candlelight.
But with so many warning signs that it is not better? Are they as dumb as moths?
I guess not, but there must have been a change in criteria for recruitment, maybe even in today’s general schooling: Reading comprehension seems no longer required
The T&C's comparison between the two airlines, however, is a different story altogether.
This is for all the dreamers out there believing the “no tax” fairy tale in the pit.
That's the rub, not the money. Quality of life is the number one priority and in the current situation
Most of us though have a problem with the “punish first, then assess later” brain wiring of the management around here (it exempts themselves and locals, naturally).
This is particularly serious when you want to leave. You are regarded as potential criminal until you have cleared each and every bs step imposed by employer, banks, administration, telecom company and so forth. Any slip or unintended omission will either block you here, impound all your belongings or cost you in an unaccountaed whimp the huge deposit asked throughout that oh so tolerant and civilised society (not).
I can somehow understand the attraction of what is whispered by EK, we all got tied up by it. What eludes me is that back then when we came along, there was very little bad news about EK, they seemed quite civilised (the change is almost unbelievable!!), but today there is an abundance of warnings and sad stories easily verifiable about the cr@p happening around here.
So why are there still guys applying?
First I do understand that there are similarly bad carreers out there and a change to the presumed better always has its moths flying into the candlelight.
But with so many warning signs that it is not better? Are they as dumb as moths?
I guess not, but there must have been a change in criteria for recruitment, maybe even in today’s general schooling: Reading comprehension seems no longer required
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: another place
Posts: 736
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pilots with no balls has always been the big problem in airlines, that's why management can get away with the 
they do.
Balpa is a eunuch like association outside of BA as well.
Ps I'm not talking female pilots not having gonads )
they do. Balpa is a eunuch like association outside of BA as well.
Ps I'm not talking female pilots not having gonads )
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Standby, Resyncing other FMC...
Posts: 131
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"But with so many warning signs that it is not better? Are they as dumb as moths?
I guess not, but there must have been a change in criteria for recruitment, maybe even in today’s general schooling: Reading comprehension seems no longer required"
I think you are overestimating the number of pprune readers. I know two guys that have applied and none of them ever reads pprune. They don't even have a FB account...
I guess not, but there must have been a change in criteria for recruitment, maybe even in today’s general schooling: Reading comprehension seems no longer required"
I think you are overestimating the number of pprune readers. I know two guys that have applied and none of them ever reads pprune. They don't even have a FB account...
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: The dark side of the moon
Posts: 345
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Personally I have few issues flying for EK. Yes, it can be tiring flying all hours of the clock. I've even learnt to meditate and this has gone a long way to help me beat the fatigue.
I have worked for some real doozies before EK. So everything is relative and I will always remember what life was like flying for other airlines, not for me.
EK is NOT for everyone, a friend left within a few months to go back to his previous airline. EK actually said don't worry about the bond and let him go.
As for the training, I think it is well above the standard than what I have had in the past. I enjoy a challenging sim and walk away with a lot of food for thought.
The whole industry has been on the slide for a long time, it's going to be interesting to see what the pilot shortage does to this trend.
Everyone wants different things and to live in different ways. Those who are unhappy are not wrong and are entitled to those feelings. I just ask that you accept that I see more good than bad.
All the best gents!
I have worked for some real doozies before EK. So everything is relative and I will always remember what life was like flying for other airlines, not for me.
EK is NOT for everyone, a friend left within a few months to go back to his previous airline. EK actually said don't worry about the bond and let him go.
As for the training, I think it is well above the standard than what I have had in the past. I enjoy a challenging sim and walk away with a lot of food for thought.
The whole industry has been on the slide for a long time, it's going to be interesting to see what the pilot shortage does to this trend.
Everyone wants different things and to live in different ways. Those who are unhappy are not wrong and are entitled to those feelings. I just ask that you accept that I see more good than bad.
All the best gents!
Touch,
Did you join on the 380 as a FO? I would suggest then you have not seen a bad roster. Those that complain have.
Did you join on the 380 as a FO? I would suggest then you have not seen a bad roster. Those that complain have.
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Asia
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"It was like to be in a constant state of jet-lag and tiredness. I don't feel like I am forcing my brain to think. Had the attention span of a gold fish and could barely have a coherent conversation."
It probably is just that, that you are running on fumes. Not funny at all, and for a second, I felt sympathy. (ok that was sarcasm)
I will from this moment, try to consider this next time I roll my eyes over a read back that didn't even remotely resemble what I gave as a clearance.
Fly safe guys and gals. This post makes sense.
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Dubai
Posts: 768
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
allrounder99 you are not wrong. I often arrive back in Dubai in the early morning and am never ceased to be amazed how many pilots I hear tripping over their tongues trying to read back simple clearances or asking for requests. I then open my mouth and add to the lack of quality RT, it's really frustrating.
Not a big surprise when you think of it. The University of South Australia found that cognitive information processing ability after 18 hours of being awake, was the same as someone at the legal limit for blood alcohol in most Euro countries, while being awake for 24 hours put their processing ability at nearly double the legal limit.
Throw in hypoxia and the dehydrated state that is fundamental to sitting in a pressurized airliner, add a dash of jet lag and you end up with a very reduced mental capacity.
Not a big surprise when you think of it. The University of South Australia found that cognitive information processing ability after 18 hours of being awake, was the same as someone at the legal limit for blood alcohol in most Euro countries, while being awake for 24 hours put their processing ability at nearly double the legal limit.
Throw in hypoxia and the dehydrated state that is fundamental to sitting in a pressurized airliner, add a dash of jet lag and you end up with a very reduced mental capacity.