Emirates DEC
Join Date: Jul 2008
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And you honestly think the roster's will get better and we won't be flying 90+ hours a month with these DEC's? For every DEC they hire, probably two or more current line captains are leaving and probably many more looking for an escape. This will do nothing except piss off the the FO's who are probably more qualified than the candidates they will get for the DEC position.
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Dubai, UAE
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I disagree, he has not told it like it is, he has spun the s***t out of it.
The reason they need DEC's is because they can not recruit F/O's. This is a very different situation to the past when they could not recruit or train fast enough into just 1 seat and so had to spread the load.
The F/O's are being severely disadvantaged. They are being By-Passed because the company refuses to face the real world and compete for the crews they need with a package that reflects reality, not some pie-in-the-sky, rose coloured version they subscribe to.
This, coupled with the reduced requirements of the recruiting sim!!!!!, look out, the holes in the cheese just got a lot closer together.
The reason they need DEC's is because they can not recruit F/O's. This is a very different situation to the past when they could not recruit or train fast enough into just 1 seat and so had to spread the load.
The F/O's are being severely disadvantaged. They are being By-Passed because the company refuses to face the real world and compete for the crews they need with a package that reflects reality, not some pie-in-the-sky, rose coloured version they subscribe to.
This, coupled with the reduced requirements of the recruiting sim!!!!!, look out, the holes in the cheese just got a lot closer together.
Join Date: Jul 2007
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I take my hat off to JA for telling it like it is.
Fortunately for EK, there are some 'heavy' Captains that are in the market who speak fluent Russian and Malay with 777 and 330 experience.
Join Date: Jul 2000
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Its not so much FOs resigning we need to worry about its more the ones that won't come to EK we need to be concerned about, all the FOs looking at the Middle East will opt for EY and QR, this is one of the biggest problems EK face, once it was the preferred airline in this neck of the woods not so anymore...
Having said the above, with the amount of experience sitting in the RH seat at the moment its a real shame to have received the email this afternoon and it certainly won't help morale no matter how pretty they tried to paint the picture it will of course delay courses...
777-200LR, I am also sick and tired of flying over 90hrs every month but it doesn't mean that we should just be happy and accept more DECs in oder to"reduce" our hours (which won't happen anyway) lets all stick together for once instead of merely saying "I am alright Jack".
Having said the above, with the amount of experience sitting in the RH seat at the moment its a real shame to have received the email this afternoon and it certainly won't help morale no matter how pretty they tried to paint the picture it will of course delay courses...
777-200LR, I am also sick and tired of flying over 90hrs every month but it doesn't mean that we should just be happy and accept more DECs in oder to"reduce" our hours (which won't happen anyway) lets all stick together for once instead of merely saying "I am alright Jack".
Join Date: Mar 2010
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This, of course, was an inevitability.
It is, indeed, not a message any FO wanted to see. It also will do little to relieve the overwork of the Captains. EK has dug itself such a deep hole that tweaks like this will accomplish little.
Morale will take another hit, recruitment won't be any easier and attrition will not slow. The only thing they can do in the short term that may have some impact is a BIG improvement to the package. They won't do it, of course.
More airplanes, more routes, more pilots leaving and not nearly enough pilots joining... not really the ideal recipe for running an airline.
It is, indeed, not a message any FO wanted to see. It also will do little to relieve the overwork of the Captains. EK has dug itself such a deep hole that tweaks like this will accomplish little.
Morale will take another hit, recruitment won't be any easier and attrition will not slow. The only thing they can do in the short term that may have some impact is a BIG improvement to the package. They won't do it, of course.
More airplanes, more routes, more pilots leaving and not nearly enough pilots joining... not really the ideal recipe for running an airline.
I am pretty sure even the Muppets know this isn't going to work. They tried lowering from "upright and breathing" to "recently had a pulse" for FOs and still couldn't find anyone. They had no option other than go this route as they are too tight fisted and short sighted to try and fix the root cause.
Join Date: Sep 2011
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The reason for this measure is, as had been rightfully put, that not enough eligible FOs apply to EK. Word is on the street that you work too much, you can't get home due to catastrophic rostering and no leave, the package is inadequate unless you move to the left and the latter will no happen before 7 to 8 years.
Thus EK has to revert to DECs to fill the seats. There seems to be a small pool of desperate skippers around the world that just barely match the requirements.
The outcome will be even less FOs applying, logically enough because all the above gets even worse, therefore EK will have to continue to recruit DECs and the vicious circle engages.
EK will not up the conditions for skippers, because as long as they can recruit some, they think the package is sufficient. But in the short run they will run out of FOs and the RHS will be filled with skippers.
Then they will run out of applications by skippers because word will be out on the street that the conditions are not great and that half of the time you will work as a FO ........
Great leadership and foresight. Bravo management!!
Thus EK has to revert to DECs to fill the seats. There seems to be a small pool of desperate skippers around the world that just barely match the requirements.
The outcome will be even less FOs applying, logically enough because all the above gets even worse, therefore EK will have to continue to recruit DECs and the vicious circle engages.
EK will not up the conditions for skippers, because as long as they can recruit some, they think the package is sufficient. But in the short run they will run out of FOs and the RHS will be filled with skippers.
Then they will run out of applications by skippers because word will be out on the street that the conditions are not great and that half of the time you will work as a FO ........
Great leadership and foresight. Bravo management!!
Join Date: Jan 2015
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There was a big glossy article on Emirates in Airliner World this month.
It stated 7 crews per aircraft - for Long Haul Ops, yes you get economy of scale but this seems extremely light in my humble opinion.
It stated 7 crews per aircraft - for Long Haul Ops, yes you get economy of scale but this seems extremely light in my humble opinion.
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: dubai
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Dec
Guys over 10 years in, sat overseas, interview tomorrow, no point ranting, just vote with your feet, only way things will change..if this Company wants to succeed it's seriously needs to get with the program. Start offering commuting, I cannot live and more importantly my wife and kids don't want to live in a compound, corralled anymore, I want my freedom back.
Join Date: Jan 2006
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No dog in the hunt... but... if enough eligible FO's aren't applying doesn't using DECS as the solution doom the current FO's to their current job? So why would a well qualified FO apply if he knows he's going to get stuck in the right seat????
And if the requirements have dropped and the candidate pool still isn't large enough what's that say about the future manning/hiring cycle?
And if the requirements have dropped and the candidate pool still isn't large enough what's that say about the future manning/hiring cycle?
Last edited by misd-agin; 26th Oct 2015 at 00:55. Reason: typo
Join Date: Jan 2012
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I couldn't think of anything worse than joining as a DEC and getting caught up in all the 'politics' between training captains, managers, first officers etc.
As someone has previously said - there are better options up the road at 'you-know-who' and QR if you are looking at DEC in the Middle East.
One to avoid - even though I would consider myself as having the entry requirements for DEC.
Best of luck, guys.
PS Heard that DEC BA @ LGW might be opening up sooner rather than later.
As someone has previously said - there are better options up the road at 'you-know-who' and QR if you are looking at DEC in the Middle East.
One to avoid - even though I would consider myself as having the entry requirements for DEC.
Best of luck, guys.
PS Heard that DEC BA @ LGW might be opening up sooner rather than later.
Join Date: Jul 2008
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As someone who was considering going to the Calgary roadshow in a couple of days there's no way I would consider it now. The possibility of joining as an older FO just to have to worry about this years down the road makes this a no brainer. Whoever posted the comment regarding DEC's harming future FO applications hit the nail on the head.
The best of luck to you all.
The best of luck to you all.
Join Date: Oct 2014
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Isn't it ironic though, that the skippers who are leaving, are taking DEC at other companies, , and so disadvantaging another bunch of FOs?
Norwegian , Ryanair come to mind.
EK will always be able to attract experienced crew. How? Well if recruitment of DEC for the A330 doesn't work, offer it on the 777.Abig advert in Flight.
Not enough guys for this? Then open up DEC on the 380. Now who wouldn't at least consider this?
And lets not forget early retirees from europe who are not in it for the long term, just a few years before full retirement. Lufthansa, Air France BA and so on and so forth. SQ was full of BA retirees 20 years ago. Same for Gulf Air.
Finally, its all very well flying the wide bodies, but the real recruitment in Europe at least, is for rated narrow body guys. BA want 350 A320 guys. Not good if you are an FO in EK on the B777 or even A380.
And as is said often on prune, where can you go thats going to reduce your hours and increase your pay? Let me know by PM
Norwegian , Ryanair come to mind.
EK will always be able to attract experienced crew. How? Well if recruitment of DEC for the A330 doesn't work, offer it on the 777.Abig advert in Flight.
Not enough guys for this? Then open up DEC on the 380. Now who wouldn't at least consider this?
And lets not forget early retirees from europe who are not in it for the long term, just a few years before full retirement. Lufthansa, Air France BA and so on and so forth. SQ was full of BA retirees 20 years ago. Same for Gulf Air.
Finally, its all very well flying the wide bodies, but the real recruitment in Europe at least, is for rated narrow body guys. BA want 350 A320 guys. Not good if you are an FO in EK on the B777 or even A380.
And as is said often on prune, where can you go thats going to reduce your hours and increase your pay? Let me know by PM
Join Date: Jul 2001
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We have always had DECs from time to time. If you didnt know that thats your fault.
You cant slag EK on ppprune for years and tell people to stay away, secretly hoping for a massive pay rise, and then when people actually stay away you get hypertensive over DECs coming.
The planes are coming so what did you expect?
You cant slag EK on ppprune for years and tell people to stay away, secretly hoping for a massive pay rise, and then when people actually stay away you get hypertensive over DECs coming.
The planes are coming so what did you expect?
Join Date: Jan 2012
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Don't forget, though, it is a race to the bottom in respect of terms and conditions at certain jobs in UK/Europe.
70% contracts, no annual increments for long service, no healthcare, poor allowances, poor pension etc is the deal at a certain lo-cost in the northern part of the UK.
Working your bits off at the Orange one at Gatwick - you could only make it work if you lived within 20 minutes of the airport.
Contracts with an employment agency that give you very little employment rights at our Norwegian friends.
Ryanair UK contract appears to be one of the better options at the moment.
Be aware of what you are coming back to in Europe - the grass isn't necessarily greener.
If I was younger I would be trying to get into BA.
There is no ideal job.
It is whatever is best for the individuals/ family circumstances.
As an observation, it appears that QR are scooping up most of the qualified DECs that are interested in moving to the Gulf.
70% contracts, no annual increments for long service, no healthcare, poor allowances, poor pension etc is the deal at a certain lo-cost in the northern part of the UK.
Working your bits off at the Orange one at Gatwick - you could only make it work if you lived within 20 minutes of the airport.
Contracts with an employment agency that give you very little employment rights at our Norwegian friends.
Ryanair UK contract appears to be one of the better options at the moment.
Be aware of what you are coming back to in Europe - the grass isn't necessarily greener.
If I was younger I would be trying to get into BA.
There is no ideal job.
It is whatever is best for the individuals/ family circumstances.
As an observation, it appears that QR are scooping up most of the qualified DECs that are interested in moving to the Gulf.
Join Date: Sep 2011
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Totally agree. They are all trying to beat the others in the race to the bottom. Why did not one outfit complaining about the ME3 evoque the abismal rostering conditions and cheating on the FTLs? Simply because that's what they'd like to go for as well.
Stay out of the pilots business for good, that's at least my advice to young colleagues. You might have spent a fortune, money the airlines were supposed to fork out, but you are still young enough to change course and avoid your impasse that only leads to spoil your health and relationships and does no longer allow to provide for a decent retirement.
I handed over the savings for education to my son for uni with his honest promise of not spending one dollar for aviation until he has at least a master degree.
30+ years of civil aviation have spoken.
Stay out of the pilots business for good, that's at least my advice to young colleagues. You might have spent a fortune, money the airlines were supposed to fork out, but you are still young enough to change course and avoid your impasse that only leads to spoil your health and relationships and does no longer allow to provide for a decent retirement.
I handed over the savings for education to my son for uni with his honest promise of not spending one dollar for aviation until he has at least a master degree.
30+ years of civil aviation have spoken.
Join Date: Jun 2007
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Do you honestly believe a qualified DEC from BA, SQ, etc would decide to come here with 90+ hr rosters, few choices of trips, and this mgmt culture?
Please.
Please.