US3 v ME3 - 'The Economist' weighs in
Things seem to be calming down
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Tongue and Cheek
Most of Bahrain airspace doesn't actually belong to them it's in KSA. They only control it because the Saudi's allow them to. Another well researched post 
-VFE
Dear VFE,
The last part was Humor. However, your snarky jerky attitude was duly noted and is unfortunately one of the cancers we must endure here. For argument sake, I believe it has more to due with allowing a much more simplistic system than having JED QAR KSA and BAH all divvy it up equally. Also, the 5th Fleet being in Bahrain likely continues to play a small role. My understanding is, (Please correct me if I am wrong.) airspace boundaries are an agreement. I doubt that BAH was given anything. Wait a minute, the Irish now own half the Atlantic someone should tell them!! Oh and Piarco now owns most the Caribbean and central Atlantic!! Well done. I never under estimated the Trinny global ambition. But, rumor does have it that Venezuela is only allowing them to control the airspace.
As far as an airport being built there, I am sure it would very comfortably fit within their maritime boundary. And yes VFE, I will do more research so I can make a more educated sarcastic post next time.
-VFE
Dear VFE,
The last part was Humor.
However, your snarky jerky attitude was duly noted and is unfortunately one of the cancers we must endure here. For argument sake, I believe it has more to due with allowing a much more simplistic system than having JED QAR KSA and BAH all divvy it up equally. Also, the 5th Fleet being in Bahrain likely continues to play a small role. My understanding is, (Please correct me if I am wrong.) airspace boundaries are an agreement. I doubt that BAH was given anything. Wait a minute, the Irish now own half the Atlantic someone should tell them!! Oh and Piarco now owns most the Caribbean and central Atlantic!! Well done. I never under estimated the Trinny global ambition. But, rumor does have it that Venezuela is only allowing them to control the airspace. As far as an airport being built there, I am sure it would very comfortably fit within their maritime boundary. And yes VFE, I will do more research so I can make a more educated sarcastic post next time.
Last edited by 120feet; 14th May 2015 at 10:46.
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Not any more, Saudi has taken back all of the airspace that was controlled by Bahrain. Bahrain still controls Qatari airspace above FL230. Apart from that Bahrain controls its own airspace as well as international waters.
I said this on other threads, the US can't complain about Middle Eastern airlines when they behave exactly the same way with their agriculture.
Billions of $$ in subsidies, protected markets, labour laws favouring the employer and products dumped in other markets at below cost price driving out the competition.
It's good and wholesome for their farmers to have unfair advantages but when US airlines can't compete against foreign competition it's so unreasonable.
They can't really complain when most US airlines are around 50 and below in the Skytrax rankings for 2014.
The ME 3 have a better product and consumers are voting with their wallets, that's free choice and competition. Possibly unfair competition but see if anyone cares.
Billions of $$ in subsidies, protected markets, labour laws favouring the employer and products dumped in other markets at below cost price driving out the competition.
It's good and wholesome for their farmers to have unfair advantages but when US airlines can't compete against foreign competition it's so unreasonable.
They can't really complain when most US airlines are around 50 and below in the Skytrax rankings for 2014.
The ME 3 have a better product and consumers are voting with their wallets, that's free choice and competition. Possibly unfair competition but see if anyone cares.
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IAGs turn....and consider This is is AAs big TATL partner...pendulum swinging?
"IAG responded yesterday - May 14 - to the US3's Gulf carrier subsidy claims. The response is pro-Open Skies and pro-competition. In the response IAG states: "The White Paper’s allegations on subsidies to Gulf carriers do not withstand scrutiny. IAG also has serious doubts about the way information is presented in the White Paper."
Some key takeaways from the doc:
- Not only do Gulf carriers bring competitive service and prices, they also stimulate the market, so that much of the increase in their own passenger traffic is incremental, not taken from existing operators.
- “IAG disputes the evidence and conclusions that unfair subsidies are being provided by the Gulf States to the Gulf airlines contained in the White Paper prepared by American, Delta and United. IAG believes the evidence and therefore the conclusions to be unreliable and wholly inappropriate as a means of informing important government policy decisions. The White Paper’s arguments should be rejected as a return to international aviation policies that protect airlines from competitors instead of fostering competition.”
- British Airways has faced direct competition from Emirates for over 25 years.
- The White Paper makes much of the Gulf carrier impacts in relation to passengers travelling indirectly e.g. between India and the US, as if consumers should be denied this choice. Passengers travelling between two points on the globe do not “belong” to any particular airline or group of airlines. Airlines must compete to offer passengers what they want. The outdated concept of “ownership” of passenger traffic must be rejected by all governments.
- Fuel subsidies to any of the Gulf carriers are non-existent. It is not credible to make allegations simply because the States concerned have large oil and gas reserves, especially when there is clear evidence that the carriers concerned have standard commercial contracts in place with well-established jet fuel suppliers.
The full response can be found here: http://www.eturbonews.com/58984/wron...d-right-etihad-emirates-and-qatar-"
f.
"IAG responded yesterday - May 14 - to the US3's Gulf carrier subsidy claims. The response is pro-Open Skies and pro-competition. In the response IAG states: "The White Paper’s allegations on subsidies to Gulf carriers do not withstand scrutiny. IAG also has serious doubts about the way information is presented in the White Paper."
Some key takeaways from the doc:
- Not only do Gulf carriers bring competitive service and prices, they also stimulate the market, so that much of the increase in their own passenger traffic is incremental, not taken from existing operators.
- “IAG disputes the evidence and conclusions that unfair subsidies are being provided by the Gulf States to the Gulf airlines contained in the White Paper prepared by American, Delta and United. IAG believes the evidence and therefore the conclusions to be unreliable and wholly inappropriate as a means of informing important government policy decisions. The White Paper’s arguments should be rejected as a return to international aviation policies that protect airlines from competitors instead of fostering competition.”
- British Airways has faced direct competition from Emirates for over 25 years.
- The White Paper makes much of the Gulf carrier impacts in relation to passengers travelling indirectly e.g. between India and the US, as if consumers should be denied this choice. Passengers travelling between two points on the globe do not “belong” to any particular airline or group of airlines. Airlines must compete to offer passengers what they want. The outdated concept of “ownership” of passenger traffic must be rejected by all governments.
- Fuel subsidies to any of the Gulf carriers are non-existent. It is not credible to make allegations simply because the States concerned have large oil and gas reserves, especially when there is clear evidence that the carriers concerned have standard commercial contracts in place with well-established jet fuel suppliers.
The full response can be found here: http://www.eturbonews.com/58984/wron...d-right-etihad-emirates-and-qatar-"
f.
Seems anyone can make one of these reports
Etihad Airways has released a report that it commissioned that says the three biggest US carriers—American Airlines, Delta Air Lines and United Airlines—have received benefits worth $71.48 billion over the past 15 years.
The report includes money that went to US airlines with which the three carriers have merged and the majority of the funds are related to restructuring under US Chapter 11.
The report, researched and compiled by international consultancy The Risk Advisory Group under a commission from Abu Dhabi-based Etihad, comes as the same US carriers have embarked on a campaign in which they allege that Etihad, Emirates Airline and Qatar Airways have received some $42 billion in state subsidies. The US carriers and some US labor groups say this contravenes the fair competition rules of the Open Skies agreements between the US and the UAE and Qatar.
The US carriers want government-to-government consultations on the issue and a US government review is under way.
In a statement released late Thursday, Etihad said US airlines received benefits valued at $71.48 billion, more than $70 billion of which has been since 2000, “enabling the nation’s three largest carriers to transition from the verge of bankruptcy to today’s industry leaders, each achieving multi-billion dollar profits.”
The Risk Advisory Group, Etihad says, identified that the majority of benefits which accrued to Delta, United and American came from restructuring under Chapter 11 of the US Federal Bankruptcy Code, yielding them at least $35.46 billion, and additional pension fund bailouts totaling $29.4 billion from the US government’s Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp.
Etihad general counsel Jim Callaghan, said, “We do not question the legitimacy of benefits provided to US carriers by the US government and the bankruptcy courts. We simply wish to highlight the fact that US carriers have been benefitting and continue to benefit from a highly favorable legal regime, such as bankruptcy protection and pension guarantees, exemptions from certain taxes, and various other benefits. These benefits, which are generally only available to US carriers, have created a highly distorted market in which carriers such as Etihad Airways have to compete.”
Callaghan told ATW that the numbers were conservative and obtained from public records and statements.
The breakdown of the numbers, according to the report, apportion the large majority of benefits to United, with combined benefits estimated at $44.4 billion; followed by Delta at $15.02 billion; and American Airlines at $12.05 billion.
Of these figures, United achieved one-time bankruptcy debt relief totaling $26 billion, and pension termination benefits totaling $16.8 billion; Delta achieved bankruptcy debt relief totaling $7.9 billion, and pension termination benefits totaling $4.55 billion; and
American achieved bankruptcy debt relief totaling $1.56 billion, and pension termination benefits of $8.08 billion.
Callaghan said the claims by the three US carriers that they were being harmed by Etihad were baseless, and an attempt to obstruct higher-quality competition.
Callaghan told ATW the report would form part of Etihad’s response to the US carriers’ allegations and would be submitted to the US government review.
“We are not going to get into a tit for tat. This is about having a balanced debate on this issue,” he said.
Callaghan added that the airlines are trying to characterize every dollar invested in Etihad by the Abu Dhabi government as a shareholder as a subsidy. “If you follow this line of argument you would also have to look at all other state-owned airlines such as Turkish Airlines and the Chinese airlines—many of whom are partners in the three US carriers’ global alliances.”
On Wednesday, Qatar Airways Group CEO Akbar al Baker held a media briefing in Washington, DC to refute the subsidy allegations against his airline.
The report includes money that went to US airlines with which the three carriers have merged and the majority of the funds are related to restructuring under US Chapter 11.
The report, researched and compiled by international consultancy The Risk Advisory Group under a commission from Abu Dhabi-based Etihad, comes as the same US carriers have embarked on a campaign in which they allege that Etihad, Emirates Airline and Qatar Airways have received some $42 billion in state subsidies. The US carriers and some US labor groups say this contravenes the fair competition rules of the Open Skies agreements between the US and the UAE and Qatar.
The US carriers want government-to-government consultations on the issue and a US government review is under way.
In a statement released late Thursday, Etihad said US airlines received benefits valued at $71.48 billion, more than $70 billion of which has been since 2000, “enabling the nation’s three largest carriers to transition from the verge of bankruptcy to today’s industry leaders, each achieving multi-billion dollar profits.”
The Risk Advisory Group, Etihad says, identified that the majority of benefits which accrued to Delta, United and American came from restructuring under Chapter 11 of the US Federal Bankruptcy Code, yielding them at least $35.46 billion, and additional pension fund bailouts totaling $29.4 billion from the US government’s Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp.
Etihad general counsel Jim Callaghan, said, “We do not question the legitimacy of benefits provided to US carriers by the US government and the bankruptcy courts. We simply wish to highlight the fact that US carriers have been benefitting and continue to benefit from a highly favorable legal regime, such as bankruptcy protection and pension guarantees, exemptions from certain taxes, and various other benefits. These benefits, which are generally only available to US carriers, have created a highly distorted market in which carriers such as Etihad Airways have to compete.”
Callaghan told ATW that the numbers were conservative and obtained from public records and statements.
The breakdown of the numbers, according to the report, apportion the large majority of benefits to United, with combined benefits estimated at $44.4 billion; followed by Delta at $15.02 billion; and American Airlines at $12.05 billion.
Of these figures, United achieved one-time bankruptcy debt relief totaling $26 billion, and pension termination benefits totaling $16.8 billion; Delta achieved bankruptcy debt relief totaling $7.9 billion, and pension termination benefits totaling $4.55 billion; and
American achieved bankruptcy debt relief totaling $1.56 billion, and pension termination benefits of $8.08 billion.
Callaghan said the claims by the three US carriers that they were being harmed by Etihad were baseless, and an attempt to obstruct higher-quality competition.
Callaghan told ATW the report would form part of Etihad’s response to the US carriers’ allegations and would be submitted to the US government review.
“We are not going to get into a tit for tat. This is about having a balanced debate on this issue,” he said.
Callaghan added that the airlines are trying to characterize every dollar invested in Etihad by the Abu Dhabi government as a shareholder as a subsidy. “If you follow this line of argument you would also have to look at all other state-owned airlines such as Turkish Airlines and the Chinese airlines—many of whom are partners in the three US carriers’ global alliances.”
On Wednesday, Qatar Airways Group CEO Akbar al Baker held a media briefing in Washington, DC to refute the subsidy allegations against his airline.
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Hi,
And now the Dutch government blocked any futher growth from the 3 ME carriers in Amsterdam.
Because Schiphol and KLM fear them. This is based on unfair subsidies.
Falck
And now the Dutch government blocked any futher growth from the 3 ME carriers in Amsterdam.
Because Schiphol and KLM fear them. This is based on unfair subsidies.
Falck
short flights long nights
Having worked for KLM for 18 years, I can say this. The government will protect them at all costs, you have no idea how deep KLM runs in the Dutch culture
The unions hold immense power. They will get what ever they want.
The unions hold immense power. They will get what ever they want.
And now the Dutch government blocked any futher growth from the 3 ME carriers in Amsterdam.
KLM were rooted from the day they merged with AF, not because of the MEB3
The White Paper makes much of the Gulf carrier impacts in relation to passengers travelling indirectly e.g. between India and the US, as if consumers should be denied this choice.
short flights long nights
And how do you know this, paokara.?