How many real flying hours per month at EK
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59.9 hours/ month average for the last 100+ months.
Ball park for this month left seat A380 92-97 hours 11-12 days off, right seat A380 70-75 hours 14 days off. Left seat/right seat on the A330 80+ hours but with just 8-9 days off. The Boeing has more network diversity than the Airbuses so figures are variable.
The quoted poster has spent most of the last 100+ months in the right seat of a Boeing.
short flights long nights
And this poster has spent the last 100 months ( plus) in the left hand seat of the Boeing to 92 hours a month, every month.
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falconeasydriver
Yep, that will work. Just like it's now working for the cabin crew with punitive measures being enforced. Keeping pressing that 2 matey and we'll be next.
If you're knackered, us a a bloody fatigue report.
allaru
Ever thought of getting a job for the government. Statistics are a wonderful tool when you input figures of your choosing. Same hours worked and the figures become 448 against 316. That's 30% straight off. I've not even included flying pay differences. Not many F/O's doing only 70 hours each month nowadays on the B777. Still, if you'd rather keep with your numbers, feel free to stay in the right seat. Plenty who'll be willing to trade up....even for your 10%!
Harry
Yep, that will work. Just like it's now working for the cabin crew with punitive measures being enforced. Keeping pressing that 2 matey and we'll be next.
If you're knackered, us a a bloody fatigue report.
allaru
Ever thought of getting a job for the government. Statistics are a wonderful tool when you input figures of your choosing. Same hours worked and the figures become 448 against 316. That's 30% straight off. I've not even included flying pay differences. Not many F/O's doing only 70 hours each month nowadays on the B777. Still, if you'd rather keep with your numbers, feel free to stay in the right seat. Plenty who'll be willing to trade up....even for your 10%!
Harry
Last edited by harry the cod; 21st Jan 2015 at 13:50.
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Harry, what makes you think I'm not one of the chosen ones that has to report to the headmasters office when I press 2? or indeed I do it as a matter of course to cover my own backside?
"rules are for the guidance of wise men, and the obedience of fools'''
FWIW, I use this option when I need too, my health both physically and mentally takes priority over anything else.
Oh yeah, and I have filled in fatigue reports, only to get an email either telling me that the "mirror men" are looking into it, or better yet, reminding me to fill in a fatigue report.
"rules are for the guidance of wise men, and the obedience of fools'''
FWIW, I use this option when I need too, my health both physically and mentally takes priority over anything else.
Oh yeah, and I have filled in fatigue reports, only to get an email either telling me that the "mirror men" are looking into it, or better yet, reminding me to fill in a fatigue report.
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Doing this is one thing. Bragging about it on a forum monitored by the 'mirror men' you have referred to is another.
I MERELY stated an option that is available. I then went on clarify my comments as to how they relate to my physical and emotional well being, or are you suggesting that I operate outside the bounds of the OMA because I'm intimidated? perhaps for you going to work when you are unfit is a preferable option rather than having to explain and justify your actions, but for me, I have and can justify my attendance/sickness record.
As for the mirror men, they are exactly that, always looking into it....
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Thanks for the replies.
I'm still not sure I got the answer I was looking for or perhaps I didn't read the responses properly.
Lets assume that you are scheduled for 90 hours for a particular month(no sim or gs) and it turns out that your flight times ended up exactly as scheduled. Much of that flying is long haul where a portion of the flights will be spent resting which turns out to be 15 hours. Is that rest period part of the 90 hours you had scheduled.
I have been told by someone(which may very well be inaccurate) that your 90 scheduled hours didn't include the rest time.
I'm still not sure I got the answer I was looking for or perhaps I didn't read the responses properly.
Lets assume that you are scheduled for 90 hours for a particular month(no sim or gs) and it turns out that your flight times ended up exactly as scheduled. Much of that flying is long haul where a portion of the flights will be spent resting which turns out to be 15 hours. Is that rest period part of the 90 hours you had scheduled.
I have been told by someone(which may very well be inaccurate) that your 90 scheduled hours didn't include the rest time.
short flights long nights
Well, for example, I have all two crew flights this month, I have no bunk time, I'm rostered for 91.55 hours. That's it, 91.55 in the seat. As I spent about 1 hour holding for fog the other day, it's actually more than rostered. I won't get paid for that.
Last edited by SOPS; 21st Jan 2015 at 18:12.
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Just like you don't get paid for sick time, vacation time and Distance Learning as has been pointed out on these pages.
92 hours in the seat. It will come to a point where you will be rostered 115 flying hours but with the Factoring you will get credit for 92 hours.
This has to end but unfortunately I don't know where or how.
92 hours in the seat. It will come to a point where you will be rostered 115 flying hours but with the Factoring you will get credit for 92 hours.
This has to end but unfortunately I don't know where or how.
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JammedStab
I think GURU on page 1 explained it all perfectly.
Just so that you're aware, if you do a ULR, you'll get paid for the full duty regardless of bunk time. However, you only get credited with half the flight 'stick' time when you augment. So, for example, a flight from DXB to LAX has 4 crew (2 Captains & 2 F/O's). One crew will be the operating crew out, the other will operate back. The operating crew are basically the ones who do the take off and landing and half the flight. The augment crew do the cruise portion only. Say the flight is blocked at 16 hours both ways, then all crew get 32 hours flight pay for this trip but only 24 hours credit for actual flying hours.
This is known as 'factoring'. It was initiated by the GCAA to ensure cadets or low hour pilots could not use bunk time to count towards hours for upgrade. In a rather unusual and somewhat surprising move, Emirates have interpreted the rules and regulations differently.
Much like crew report times, ULR definitions......etc.....etc.....
Hope this explains it!
Harry
I think GURU on page 1 explained it all perfectly.
Just so that you're aware, if you do a ULR, you'll get paid for the full duty regardless of bunk time. However, you only get credited with half the flight 'stick' time when you augment. So, for example, a flight from DXB to LAX has 4 crew (2 Captains & 2 F/O's). One crew will be the operating crew out, the other will operate back. The operating crew are basically the ones who do the take off and landing and half the flight. The augment crew do the cruise portion only. Say the flight is blocked at 16 hours both ways, then all crew get 32 hours flight pay for this trip but only 24 hours credit for actual flying hours.
This is known as 'factoring'. It was initiated by the GCAA to ensure cadets or low hour pilots could not use bunk time to count towards hours for upgrade. In a rather unusual and somewhat surprising move, Emirates have interpreted the rules and regulations differently.
Much like crew report times, ULR definitions......etc.....etc.....
Hope this explains it!
Harry
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Getting Back to the Original Topic.......!
Seems to be 2 roster systems or 2 sides of the the fence here, I myself have be doing 92 hours/month over the last few years and I talk to many guys who fly an average 70 hours. Reading between the lines, I think they put you into 2 brackets that if they expect you to leave the company between 3-10 years they work you hard and if your a Life timer you get an average roster of 70 hours and other perks (which is a different subject all together)...!
One thing for sure if you like Night Flying and dont mind sleeping during the day, jump on board and see how long your Journey will last................!
Hello Recovery, Keep Tomorrow (Free)........!
One thing for sure if you like Night Flying and dont mind sleeping during the day, jump on board and see how long your Journey will last................!
Hello Recovery, Keep Tomorrow (Free)........!
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Harry
"Plenty who'll be willing to trade up....even for your 10%!"
Exactly and that's how they get away with it. There was a short time when 777s FOs were doing 90+ but now most I work with are back to 80ish.
We are a per hour commodity, end of story, and the FOs have always flown less than the Captains. The companies pay rates relate mainly to their ability or inability to get the people they need, and thus its the FOs salary that is the determining factor. The challenge from then on is to get as many hours for as little as possible, thus the reason Captains have ALWAYS flown more. It makes the Captains cheaper, as we are a per hour commodity. And they know that people will do the work and change seats for free if that was the only option.
It the same reason why the salaries are not a lot different at Air Arabia and Fly Dubai, as if they were paid any less no one would come, AND pilots would always choose to fly the bigger aircraft at EK for free if given the choice. And to all the narrow body guys...it ain't the same, and nor are the experience requirements for that reason.
You'll find that our mates down the road and in Qatar do a similar trick.
I would be happy to work for 10000dhs per month, for which I will give them one flying hour.
Back to the topic..in my opinion the hours situation is only going to get worse as more aircraft arrive, and the numbers of pilots they expect to join don't.
"Plenty who'll be willing to trade up....even for your 10%!"
Exactly and that's how they get away with it. There was a short time when 777s FOs were doing 90+ but now most I work with are back to 80ish.
We are a per hour commodity, end of story, and the FOs have always flown less than the Captains. The companies pay rates relate mainly to their ability or inability to get the people they need, and thus its the FOs salary that is the determining factor. The challenge from then on is to get as many hours for as little as possible, thus the reason Captains have ALWAYS flown more. It makes the Captains cheaper, as we are a per hour commodity. And they know that people will do the work and change seats for free if that was the only option.
It the same reason why the salaries are not a lot different at Air Arabia and Fly Dubai, as if they were paid any less no one would come, AND pilots would always choose to fly the bigger aircraft at EK for free if given the choice. And to all the narrow body guys...it ain't the same, and nor are the experience requirements for that reason.
You'll find that our mates down the road and in Qatar do a similar trick.
I would be happy to work for 10000dhs per month, for which I will give them one flying hour.
Back to the topic..in my opinion the hours situation is only going to get worse as more aircraft arrive, and the numbers of pilots they expect to join don't.
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JammedStab,
It all depends on how many days in the month, bidding preferences, fleet, seat, rostering team's mercy, etc.
Rosters will be produced in order to achieve maximum productivity but without exceeding it, because they don't want to pay overtime. Productivity thresholds are as follows:
-Months with 31 days: 92 block hours.
-Months with 30 days: 89 block hours.
-Months with 29 days: 86 block hours.
-Months with 28 days: 83 block hours.
So based on the above a January roster will be aimed to have 91:55 block hours (being the case for most Capts and some FOs), a February roster will be aimed to have 82:55 block hours, and so on.
For now the scheduled block equals "credit", credit is what you are getting paid per block hour, so if your trip has 20 hours block time then you are getting 20 hours credit (flight pay). At the same time if you are doing an ULR you get paid for the whole block time of the trip (regardless if augmenting or not), also if you are deadheading you get credit for the whole planned block time of the flight you are deadheading on (that being in EK or any other airline). If you are called for sim support you get 5:30 credit hours; so the governing factor while rostering is the credit hours, because again, they don't want to pay overtime. Important to say also that ground duties, PPC recurrent, leave, etc don't incur in any credit (i.e. you don't get paid for those) so you might have a 92 hours roster plus some kind of training.
To answer your question. If you like bidding for freighters then you might end up with a very low "stick time" but with lots of credit hours from all the deadheading involved, you will still be paid the whole block hours of your trips but since you deadheaded in half of them then only stick time goes in your logbook and only stick time goes towards the 100 per month/ 900 per year limit.
Same thing happens with ULR flying. Let's say in Feb you end up with 2 ULRs of 30 hours block each, and the rest of the roster is two pilots flights all of them adding 22:55 therefore making up the productivity threshold of 83 hours for a 28 days month. In this example you will get paid 82:55 hours but the company will only take 52:55 hours as stick time "factoring"(82:55-30 hours of augmenting from the ULR trips), so even though you are required to be all this time in the airplane your monthly and yearly stick time hours will be low allowing the company to use you more. I must add that all the ULR block hours are considered for the upgrade experience requirements, so doing many ULRs wont hurt you in that aspect.
Whatever the case you will be in an airplane for a long time each month, if you are looking for less stick time then bid for freighters because all the deadheading chews up into the productivity thresholds.
Hope this helps
It all depends on how many days in the month, bidding preferences, fleet, seat, rostering team's mercy, etc.
Rosters will be produced in order to achieve maximum productivity but without exceeding it, because they don't want to pay overtime. Productivity thresholds are as follows:
-Months with 31 days: 92 block hours.
-Months with 30 days: 89 block hours.
-Months with 29 days: 86 block hours.
-Months with 28 days: 83 block hours.
So based on the above a January roster will be aimed to have 91:55 block hours (being the case for most Capts and some FOs), a February roster will be aimed to have 82:55 block hours, and so on.
For now the scheduled block equals "credit", credit is what you are getting paid per block hour, so if your trip has 20 hours block time then you are getting 20 hours credit (flight pay). At the same time if you are doing an ULR you get paid for the whole block time of the trip (regardless if augmenting or not), also if you are deadheading you get credit for the whole planned block time of the flight you are deadheading on (that being in EK or any other airline). If you are called for sim support you get 5:30 credit hours; so the governing factor while rostering is the credit hours, because again, they don't want to pay overtime. Important to say also that ground duties, PPC recurrent, leave, etc don't incur in any credit (i.e. you don't get paid for those) so you might have a 92 hours roster plus some kind of training.
To answer your question. If you like bidding for freighters then you might end up with a very low "stick time" but with lots of credit hours from all the deadheading involved, you will still be paid the whole block hours of your trips but since you deadheaded in half of them then only stick time goes in your logbook and only stick time goes towards the 100 per month/ 900 per year limit.
Same thing happens with ULR flying. Let's say in Feb you end up with 2 ULRs of 30 hours block each, and the rest of the roster is two pilots flights all of them adding 22:55 therefore making up the productivity threshold of 83 hours for a 28 days month. In this example you will get paid 82:55 hours but the company will only take 52:55 hours as stick time "factoring"(82:55-30 hours of augmenting from the ULR trips), so even though you are required to be all this time in the airplane your monthly and yearly stick time hours will be low allowing the company to use you more. I must add that all the ULR block hours are considered for the upgrade experience requirements, so doing many ULRs wont hurt you in that aspect.
Whatever the case you will be in an airplane for a long time each month, if you are looking for less stick time then bid for freighters because all the deadheading chews up into the productivity thresholds.
Hope this helps
Last edited by Capt. Flamingo; 22nd Jan 2015 at 16:10. Reason: typos
short flights long nights
A cadet I flew with told me that they were only being rostered for 65 hours a month, 'to keep them happy' . As I did not see his actual roster, I don't know if that was true or not. I suppose a roster search on the portal would show the truth, until that is taken away from us as well.
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Now that IS a wind up if ever I heard one. I think that cadet was pulling your chain. Having said that, I do know that their attendance record is poorer than average. Whether they get called in for a discussion is another matter.
If the Company were to employ them on 65 hours and offer overtime above that, it would be a very clear case of racial discrimination. The extra 'salary' they get is from the government. Flying hours is from the Company so would expose itself to possible court action. Maybe not here in Dubai but elsewhere if you chose to create a scene. It would not make for a good read in the Mail On Sunday centre spread and EK know that.
I flew with a local just recently and having seen his roster, can assure you that he's rostered just the same busy month as the rest of us mere mortals. I know it's Thursday evening but easy on the vino fellas!
Harry
If the Company were to employ them on 65 hours and offer overtime above that, it would be a very clear case of racial discrimination. The extra 'salary' they get is from the government. Flying hours is from the Company so would expose itself to possible court action. Maybe not here in Dubai but elsewhere if you chose to create a scene. It would not make for a good read in the Mail On Sunday centre spread and EK know that.
I flew with a local just recently and having seen his roster, can assure you that he's rostered just the same busy month as the rest of us mere mortals. I know it's Thursday evening but easy on the vino fellas!
Harry