EK crewing levels coming home to roost?
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Does anyone actually think that complaining on this forum will actually achieve anything? The company just doesn't care. Until the pilot body can stand together and actually do some something constructive about it, apart from just complaining on here all the time, nothing is going to change.
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Cenrifugal, the company doesn't care and won't unless flights are cancelled and/or aircraft parked. However, potential applicants read this forum (or they should!) and they have a right to be informed about what they are getting into.
Join Date: Nov 2007
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Thanks to Harry The Cod
Thanks Harry,
Nowadays, I am one of the 350 ish sat behind you. Most of us have plans & schedules to keep to so WE appreciate those who consider the customer!
Yes I want to get there in one piece and I am sure you do as well.
Please don't forget that PASSENGERS (or self loading freight as others might call us) are paying your wages so perhaps think of them a bit more!
A lot of the comments that I read are "ME, ME, ME!"
That's all folks.
Nowadays, I am one of the 350 ish sat behind you. Most of us have plans & schedules to keep to so WE appreciate those who consider the customer!
Yes I want to get there in one piece and I am sure you do as well.
Please don't forget that PASSENGERS (or self loading freight as others might call us) are paying your wages so perhaps think of them a bit more!
A lot of the comments that I read are "ME, ME, ME!"
That's all folks.
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Think you're missing the point entirely here. Double turnarounds were never regularly required in the past, now apparently they are. That speaks to mismanagement of crewing levels, which are not within the control of regular line pilots. So you're barking at the wrong people. Perhaps you could direct your comments to those who actually make the staffing decisions as I can assure you the workers at the coal face do have the best interests of the customers at heart.
But since you make the rather self-important statement about paying the wages, could we take this opportunity to ask for a raise? Seeing as airfares and wages have actually substantially declined in inflation-adjusted terms over the last 30 years.
But since you make the rather self-important statement about paying the wages, could we take this opportunity to ask for a raise? Seeing as airfares and wages have actually substantially declined in inflation-adjusted terms over the last 30 years.
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Nolimitholdem, I assume that you are addressing me.
I am so sorry I have obviously got things wrong, I had no idea that you were being asked to break the contracts of employment that you have signed with your company.
If this is the case you will obviously have a very good case and you will no doubt go to a tribunal and win your case.
Being serious, I have no axe to grind but find it somewhat disturbing to read so many negative comments.
I would have thought that a spirit of cooperation between crews and operations would have been beneficial to all and who knows a spirit of "You scratch my back ect" might prove beneficial to all.
BUT most important of all, KEEP SAFE!
I am so sorry I have obviously got things wrong, I had no idea that you were being asked to break the contracts of employment that you have signed with your company.
If this is the case you will obviously have a very good case and you will no doubt go to a tribunal and win your case.
Being serious, I have no axe to grind but find it somewhat disturbing to read so many negative comments.
I would have thought that a spirit of cooperation between crews and operations would have been beneficial to all and who knows a spirit of "You scratch my back ect" might prove beneficial to all.
BUT most important of all, KEEP SAFE!
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Sorry Nolimitholdem, I tried to ignore your jibe but I can't.
I did not say I paid your wages I said Passengers did, which I believe is correct.
I am surprised that you, who I am guessing, are intimately involved with the aviation industry do not realise that the real reason that fares have reduced in relation to inflation is due to technology and not "THE PASSENGER" refusing to pay more.
I did not say I paid your wages I said Passengers did, which I believe is correct.
I am surprised that you, who I am guessing, are intimately involved with the aviation industry do not realise that the real reason that fares have reduced in relation to inflation is due to technology and not "THE PASSENGER" refusing to pay more.
Join Date: Jun 2001
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Covey,
Next time you are self loading freight and accelerating down the runway prior to take-off ask yourself where you would like to place your trust if an engine quit at critical speed
A) Technology
B) A low cost pilot with minimum training to tick the regulatory boxes who feels fatigued, underpaid and worried about his or her future
C) A well rested, properly trained and prepared pilot who is sufficiently free of worries as to to be able to concentrate 100% on his or her job and your safety.
Just saying.
Next time you are self loading freight and accelerating down the runway prior to take-off ask yourself where you would like to place your trust if an engine quit at critical speed
A) Technology
B) A low cost pilot with minimum training to tick the regulatory boxes who feels fatigued, underpaid and worried about his or her future
C) A well rested, properly trained and prepared pilot who is sufficiently free of worries as to to be able to concentrate 100% on his or her job and your safety.
Just saying.
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Covey Ducks
First of all I don't know why a pax is on a pilot web site but it is not password protected so read away.
It would be a lot easier to scratch each other backs if it was in fact reciprocal. For the last few years it has been a one way street and you can guess which direction that scratching is going.
The company doesn't even give us items that don't cost anything. When that is the fact the employees have to ask why? Do they even care about us and for the most of us that answer is most definitely no.
How to win friends and motivate people is the last thing on the company's agenda. Every good manager at any company in any industry says their employees are the company's most important assets. I defy you find even 3% of Emirates employees who say they are empowered and feel valued and that is all because of the management employeed by Emirates Airlines.
First of all I don't know why a pax is on a pilot web site but it is not password protected so read away.
It would be a lot easier to scratch each other backs if it was in fact reciprocal. For the last few years it has been a one way street and you can guess which direction that scratching is going.
The company doesn't even give us items that don't cost anything. When that is the fact the employees have to ask why? Do they even care about us and for the most of us that answer is most definitely no.
How to win friends and motivate people is the last thing on the company's agenda. Every good manager at any company in any industry says their employees are the company's most important assets. I defy you find even 3% of Emirates employees who say they are empowered and feel valued and that is all because of the management employeed by Emirates Airlines.
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Banana, C of course, and I would also hope that the contract & conditions of work of the airline would provide for this and hope that the crew up front were sensible enough only to sign such a contract.
Please don't misunderstand me, I am very sympathetic to all crew, flight deck & cabin ( I am a retired military pilot myself)
I just got the impression that some on the forum had forgotten the passenger.
That's all, no ulterior motive!
Please don't misunderstand me, I am very sympathetic to all crew, flight deck & cabin ( I am a retired military pilot myself)
I just got the impression that some on the forum had forgotten the passenger.
That's all, no ulterior motive!
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Neptune, Even pilots can be passengers! I am a retired military pilot who likes to keep up with friends ect.
I also am about to take a flight with a certain Gulf airline which is what caught my eye when I was looking for something else.
I do not wish to get personal but I assume you have a contract of employment that you signed when you started with your company.
If your employer is breaking that contract then you obviously have a right for redress.
If you are no longer happy with the contract that you have, go elsewhere.
Simple!
I also am about to take a flight with a certain Gulf airline which is what caught my eye when I was looking for something else.
I do not wish to get personal but I assume you have a contract of employment that you signed when you started with your company.
If your employer is breaking that contract then you obviously have a right for redress.
If you are no longer happy with the contract that you have, go elsewhere.
Simple!
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@coveyducks
By the mere fact that there has not been a serious accident so far, under prevailing conditions, is testimony that those on the flight deck up in front of you take your interests as a passenger very, very seriously indeed!
By the mere fact that there has not been a serious accident so far, under prevailing conditions, is testimony that those on the flight deck up in front of you take your interests as a passenger very, very seriously indeed!
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Covey, Can you define sensible please.
If the only options are
A) unemployment and mortgage default, or
B) sign a crap contract which overworks you, underpays you and generally treats you like crap.
Which is the sensible option? Because that is the choice way too many pilots have to make.
Your post betrays your ignorance of pilot employment, particularly expatriate pilot employment. You speak as though changing jobs is the easiest thing in the world to do. It isn't. Its bloody difficult. Kids at school, change of country, acquiring new licence, new type rating, wife's career considerations (most have to work out of necessity), just getting sufficient time off at the right time to attend interview in another country is not easy. And the real kicker is that Emirates knows that and trades on it. So when guys subject themselves and their families to those levels of frustration and disruption just to get out of Dubai you know things have already gone too far.
If the only options are
A) unemployment and mortgage default, or
B) sign a crap contract which overworks you, underpays you and generally treats you like crap.
Which is the sensible option? Because that is the choice way too many pilots have to make.
Your post betrays your ignorance of pilot employment, particularly expatriate pilot employment. You speak as though changing jobs is the easiest thing in the world to do. It isn't. Its bloody difficult. Kids at school, change of country, acquiring new licence, new type rating, wife's career considerations (most have to work out of necessity), just getting sufficient time off at the right time to attend interview in another country is not easy. And the real kicker is that Emirates knows that and trades on it. So when guys subject themselves and their families to those levels of frustration and disruption just to get out of Dubai you know things have already gone too far.
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What Covey doesn't get is the terms and conditions (contract) that most signed up for at least Six years ago have been changed, canceled or ignored...with zero input, consultation, or consideration of the pilots who signed them. And the pilots plus CC have no way to grieve or complain about said changes other than accept and complain or leave, which hundreds of cabin crew are doing regularly.
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Ah Banana,
You do have my sympathy but nothing that you have said is the fault of the passenger, but it is usually the passenger that suffers the most.
I am just pleading the case for the humble passenger and initially I was just thanking Harry who was the only person to mention passengers.
As to defining sensible, that's way above my payscale! More suited to someone at the pointy end!
But please Stay Safe and if you have a moment do "try" and consider us mere passengers!
You do have my sympathy but nothing that you have said is the fault of the passenger, but it is usually the passenger that suffers the most.
I am just pleading the case for the humble passenger and initially I was just thanking Harry who was the only person to mention passengers.
As to defining sensible, that's way above my payscale! More suited to someone at the pointy end!
But please Stay Safe and if you have a moment do "try" and consider us mere passengers!
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Panther,
I find it amazing that contracts can be changed without the approval of management & staff.
There are quite a few of you so I am sure you could do a "class action" to defend yourselves.
As I have repeatedly said I am on your side (we all want a happy pilot up front!) but please don't forget your long suffering passenger.
I find it amazing that contracts can be changed without the approval of management & staff.
There are quite a few of you so I am sure you could do a "class action" to defend yourselves.
As I have repeatedly said I am on your side (we all want a happy pilot up front!) but please don't forget your long suffering passenger.
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Covey, I think I can assure you that we do consider the pax. But once again you betray your ignorance of Dubai. There is no such thing as a class action. The working relationship with the company is very simple. We play ball with them and they stick the bat up our a&&. When we have had enough, we leave.
My priorities, after safety of course are
My family
My crew
My pax
Company
If asked to justify that approach, it is really quite simple.
There are threats to four things in general.
My life
My marriage
My licences
My job
Have a guess which one I will choose to surrender first.
My priorities, after safety of course are
My family
My crew
My pax
Company
If asked to justify that approach, it is really quite simple.
There are threats to four things in general.
My life
My marriage
My licences
My job
Have a guess which one I will choose to surrender first.
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Banana,
Then we can agree on something, I admire your priorities!
I also think that in general "Us Passengers" get looked after very well.
My comments come from the recent experience of both of my children, on separate flights, having their travel plans ruined by "Crew Rostering Problems"
One EK flight and one BA flight.
I also know from talking to old friends who have done the Military/Civil shuffle that the practice of "Taking a sicky" for personal reasons is not unheard of and this is probably what leads to some of the problems.
Good luck with getting a system that works for you all and I do understand that it is very difficult in the Gulf area but from my experience you often achieve more by working with the system rather than working against it.
Then we can agree on something, I admire your priorities!
I also think that in general "Us Passengers" get looked after very well.
My comments come from the recent experience of both of my children, on separate flights, having their travel plans ruined by "Crew Rostering Problems"
One EK flight and one BA flight.
I also know from talking to old friends who have done the Military/Civil shuffle that the practice of "Taking a sicky" for personal reasons is not unheard of and this is probably what leads to some of the problems.
Good luck with getting a system that works for you all and I do understand that it is very difficult in the Gulf area but from my experience you often achieve more by working with the system rather than working against it.
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@coveyducks
If you place too much emphasis on the 'contract', it's like eating the 'menu' instead of the 'meal' - and how could a waiter defend him or herself against the restaurant manager when the customer says he or she could do a 'class action'. The customer knows fully well that there cannot be a 'class action', yet never leaves a tip, nor even says to the waiter 'thanks for all you did under the circumstances'. No, you just say to the waiter 'it's all about you isn't it - it's all about ME, ME, ME'!!! So go on eating the 'menu', and enjoy!
If you place too much emphasis on the 'contract', it's like eating the 'menu' instead of the 'meal' - and how could a waiter defend him or herself against the restaurant manager when the customer says he or she could do a 'class action'. The customer knows fully well that there cannot be a 'class action', yet never leaves a tip, nor even says to the waiter 'thanks for all you did under the circumstances'. No, you just say to the waiter 'it's all about you isn't it - it's all about ME, ME, ME'!!! So go on eating the 'menu', and enjoy!
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An interesting thread.
Covey talks about systems. The system in Dubai changes on a daily basis either by DL email or other operations notice to crew.
I am new to EK and do not plan on staying. I have been told a story involving a very senior manager being quoted and the words 'crew' 'lemons' 'squeeze' and 'discard' were allegedly used in the same sentence by him.
I have no idea if that is true or not but I can well believe it based on how undervalued and overworked I feel.
Covey talks about systems. The system in Dubai changes on a daily basis either by DL email or other operations notice to crew.
I am new to EK and do not plan on staying. I have been told a story involving a very senior manager being quoted and the words 'crew' 'lemons' 'squeeze' and 'discard' were allegedly used in the same sentence by him.
I have no idea if that is true or not but I can well believe it based on how undervalued and overworked I feel.
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Touchthestars,
In the days when someone from the pointy end came to say goodbye I always said thank you, after all I was walking off the a/c at a gate so it had to have been a good trip!
It's now time to stop bashing the passenger, I am on your side, I was, after all, only thanking one of you for considering the passenger!
Yes, I get it your contracts are not what they might be but all I am saying is just spare a thought for the passenger, which I am sure you all do, even though you don't say so in your posts.
My wife is now telling me to stop otherwise we will get chucked off our flight next month.
Oh and if any of you are at the pointy end of flight EK~~~ on ~~Feb I would love a guided tour!
To explain the blanks, once overheard over the radio in Northern Ireland,
"I'm pissed off" "Hello unknown station send callsign over" "I'm not that pissed off"
Safe Flying to you all!!!!
In the days when someone from the pointy end came to say goodbye I always said thank you, after all I was walking off the a/c at a gate so it had to have been a good trip!
It's now time to stop bashing the passenger, I am on your side, I was, after all, only thanking one of you for considering the passenger!
Yes, I get it your contracts are not what they might be but all I am saying is just spare a thought for the passenger, which I am sure you all do, even though you don't say so in your posts.
My wife is now telling me to stop otherwise we will get chucked off our flight next month.
Oh and if any of you are at the pointy end of flight EK~~~ on ~~Feb I would love a guided tour!
To explain the blanks, once overheard over the radio in Northern Ireland,
"I'm pissed off" "Hello unknown station send callsign over" "I'm not that pissed off"
Safe Flying to you all!!!!