EK roster
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Originally Posted by canadansk:8712093
Correct you get paid for the scheduled block time.
That is a shame. Enjoy JetBlue.
The don
The don
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Originally Posted by Laker:8712255
kkholidaze,
We may not have work rules but we get to fly a heavy or a 'super'(pronounced with a lisp). if you don't mind working really hard you get to wear a gold star on your shoulder.
We may not have work rules but we get to fly a heavy or a 'super'(pronounced with a lisp). if you don't mind working really hard you get to wear a gold star on your shoulder.
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Kim
Kk, he was being sarcastic. EK is not such a great gig anymore. I know some people at Jet Blue. I make more money but they get more time off. And have some job security. And have better rostering. Road show is sales pitch nowadays ..
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actually KH what we get paid to fly is mostly irrelevant at EK...it doesn't compare like the US system. Its mostly a basic salary here (which is why, in fact when Ek raised the monthly to 92 it was a cost saving move)
ps rosters do suck
ps rosters do suck
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Originally Posted by The Turtle:8712821
actually KH what we get paid to fly is mostly irrelevant at EK...it doesn't compare like the US system. Its mostly a basic salary here (which is why, in fact when Ek raised the monthly to 92 it was a cost saving move)
ps rosters do suck
ps rosters do suck
short flights long nights
92 hours plus a sim and nine days off this month, does that answer your question KK.?
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Was told I could retire with a boatload of cash within 15 years but now I don't know.
Once the honeymoon period has worn off, I would say that the majority of F/Os probably don't see themselves staying past 10 years at EK. In some cases, it is considerably less than 10 years.
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Rosters........wtf......
September, 2nd top bid and got SFA of what I bid for which was non date specific for my home port and a trip no one ever wants anyway, and used to work month in month out........no chance.
This month, top bid, same bid, more than halfway up my groups seniority, same royal shafting, but the obligatory GS and PPC added when I still have 50 days to PPC expiry.........
Seriously, if you live and work in a real country, and are considering coming to sunny knoteatingham for the glory flying job in the big shiny birds, open your eyes and realize that you give up a lot more than a job somewhere else to come and live "the dream". You give up absolutely everything and likely will not get it back. Want to spend time at home with those who you love, STAY THERE!
92 hours of long and ultra long flying per month, massive circadian disruption, hypoxia, no trees within 2000NM, and roster fiddling so you don't have enough days off in a row to try to get on oversold flights to get home, will likely have you 6' deep in the sand before you fill that money bucket that is one of the current selling points. Did I mention the 50000 hour old seat cushions?.........
If history defines a trend, then they will be wringing their hands heavily at costa in the bouncy castle, to try to figure out the next 70 something to 90 something hours per month productivity increase, for no extra pay move so be warned.
Only one way to fill hundreds of extra wide bodies, and zzzzuper wide bodies, that's to make it cheaper. Who do you think will pay for that saving?
Remember, good pilots just SuckItUp.
This month, top bid, same bid, more than halfway up my groups seniority, same royal shafting, but the obligatory GS and PPC added when I still have 50 days to PPC expiry.........
Seriously, if you live and work in a real country, and are considering coming to sunny knoteatingham for the glory flying job in the big shiny birds, open your eyes and realize that you give up a lot more than a job somewhere else to come and live "the dream". You give up absolutely everything and likely will not get it back. Want to spend time at home with those who you love, STAY THERE!
92 hours of long and ultra long flying per month, massive circadian disruption, hypoxia, no trees within 2000NM, and roster fiddling so you don't have enough days off in a row to try to get on oversold flights to get home, will likely have you 6' deep in the sand before you fill that money bucket that is one of the current selling points. Did I mention the 50000 hour old seat cushions?.........
If history defines a trend, then they will be wringing their hands heavily at costa in the bouncy castle, to try to figure out the next 70 something to 90 something hours per month productivity increase, for no extra pay move so be warned.
Only one way to fill hundreds of extra wide bodies, and zzzzuper wide bodies, that's to make it cheaper. Who do you think will pay for that saving?
Remember, good pilots just SuckItUp.
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Symptoms, Cause and Cure
There is a lot of discussing of the symptoms here but not a lot of the cause - or the cure.
I think we should all realize that the 92 hours in 31 days, 89 in 30 etc. is a not a threshold to the Company. In fact they expect more.
Ask yourself:
Assuming you worked every month to the productivity threshold every month, how many productive hours would you do in a year?
That would assume no leave in the year. So make adjustments for that in whatever way you want but the fact remains the total productivity hours in the year would have to come down.
Now ask yourself: If I did these hours would the company be satisfied? And the answer is NO. They want MORE. They have to have more as they simply do not have the pilots to crew all the duties required. The monthly target is in fact ABOVE the average productivity threshold. This is a fact few managers will admit to you. Ask them and they will waffle around the subject of how much is expected.
Hence they have 2 choices: Pay you overtime or take the time from you without paying. Paying nothing is obviously the preferred choice.
The easiest way to take the time is to get individuals to produce duty hours in months where they have leave. (My own view on this is that it is a form of theft) If an individual can produce 92 duty hours in a 31 day month and still have 8 days leave, then leave will have no impact on the duty hours a pilot can produce in a year without having to pay him productivity pay. Perfect.
But what about paying productivity pay above the monthly threshold? It is clearly less attractive than simply writing off leave or keeping productivity at the maximum level without additional payment (a matter of perspective but the same thing).
However paying productivity remains very attractive to the company. The amount paid for productivity is way below what an hour actually costs for a new pilot with salary, housing, education and so on producing his/her own maximum productivity. A bargain!
As I have said before a pilot should only be expected to work to a productivity of 44 hours in a 30 day month in which he has 15 days leave. (15x3 - 1). The company has already defined this logic haven’t they? They expect 89 hours in a 30 day month and 92 in a 31 day month. Any more is both rewarded but provides a fatigue concern. Neither of these factors is removed because of leave. If a pilot had his 15 days leave then came back to 15 days crammed with 92 hours he will be fatigued whether that is spent in an aircraft or a ZFT simulator and the leave has been free to the company.
Rostering are actively seeking to maximize hours in months containing leave. This avoids hiring many more pilots. They have been directed to do this and are getting better at it. A lot of the hours so allocated will be free hours! Hence we see so many reports of this in this thread and others.
Lamenting on Pprune, of course, will not help. Its enlightening to see how much of this is actually going on however and gives a scale of the abuse of both fatigue and fair remuneration.
But you have tools: Examples are to complain (in writing), call in fatigued, or submit your case to the FRMS boys so they can gather data. Only that will stop your exploitation. And it will. There are too many top and middle managers exposed by these practices if they continue and result in a serious problem.
I think we should all realize that the 92 hours in 31 days, 89 in 30 etc. is a not a threshold to the Company. In fact they expect more.
Ask yourself:
Assuming you worked every month to the productivity threshold every month, how many productive hours would you do in a year?
That would assume no leave in the year. So make adjustments for that in whatever way you want but the fact remains the total productivity hours in the year would have to come down.
Now ask yourself: If I did these hours would the company be satisfied? And the answer is NO. They want MORE. They have to have more as they simply do not have the pilots to crew all the duties required. The monthly target is in fact ABOVE the average productivity threshold. This is a fact few managers will admit to you. Ask them and they will waffle around the subject of how much is expected.
Hence they have 2 choices: Pay you overtime or take the time from you without paying. Paying nothing is obviously the preferred choice.
The easiest way to take the time is to get individuals to produce duty hours in months where they have leave. (My own view on this is that it is a form of theft) If an individual can produce 92 duty hours in a 31 day month and still have 8 days leave, then leave will have no impact on the duty hours a pilot can produce in a year without having to pay him productivity pay. Perfect.
But what about paying productivity pay above the monthly threshold? It is clearly less attractive than simply writing off leave or keeping productivity at the maximum level without additional payment (a matter of perspective but the same thing).
However paying productivity remains very attractive to the company. The amount paid for productivity is way below what an hour actually costs for a new pilot with salary, housing, education and so on producing his/her own maximum productivity. A bargain!
As I have said before a pilot should only be expected to work to a productivity of 44 hours in a 30 day month in which he has 15 days leave. (15x3 - 1). The company has already defined this logic haven’t they? They expect 89 hours in a 30 day month and 92 in a 31 day month. Any more is both rewarded but provides a fatigue concern. Neither of these factors is removed because of leave. If a pilot had his 15 days leave then came back to 15 days crammed with 92 hours he will be fatigued whether that is spent in an aircraft or a ZFT simulator and the leave has been free to the company.
Rostering are actively seeking to maximize hours in months containing leave. This avoids hiring many more pilots. They have been directed to do this and are getting better at it. A lot of the hours so allocated will be free hours! Hence we see so many reports of this in this thread and others.
Lamenting on Pprune, of course, will not help. Its enlightening to see how much of this is actually going on however and gives a scale of the abuse of both fatigue and fair remuneration.
But you have tools: Examples are to complain (in writing), call in fatigued, or submit your case to the FRMS boys so they can gather data. Only that will stop your exploitation. And it will. There are too many top and middle managers exposed by these practices if they continue and result in a serious problem.
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I completely concur with Pixy.
The biggest mistake is to simply call in "sick". You need to call in "SF" - "sick fatigued", unless really sick, certainly. You will have to fill in a fatigue report -> extremely easy and fast, on the portal. No problem at all, you can always hit the "confidential" button.
That is the only way we can fight this scam and enhance life quality and overall safety.
Unfortunately too many among us are simply afraid to do that. Checking rosters still show too few SF days!!!!
I don't know why the fright, at the pub they all seem to be big heroes that would never accept getting pushed around .....
Get the reports rolling!
The biggest mistake is to simply call in "sick". You need to call in "SF" - "sick fatigued", unless really sick, certainly. You will have to fill in a fatigue report -> extremely easy and fast, on the portal. No problem at all, you can always hit the "confidential" button.
That is the only way we can fight this scam and enhance life quality and overall safety.
Unfortunately too many among us are simply afraid to do that. Checking rosters still show too few SF days!!!!
I don't know why the fright, at the pub they all seem to be big heroes that would never accept getting pushed around .....
Get the reports rolling!
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Wow. Thanks for the enlightenment guys. It's just such a different system than the states. And just want to make sure I got this straight. You guys do seat support in the sim for other guys regularly? Is it a jeopardy event for you as well?
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Originally Posted by BigGeordie:8713410
Yes. And Yes. Last sim I did a 2 engine out event for practice which, according to the briefing, was "not assessed". I got a 3 for it. In EK everything is assessed.
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KK…
You said, "I'd be on edge all the time".
THAT is Emirates Airline to a TEE!
It's like flying each sector with a Fed on your jumpseat just watching… waiting for you to make a mistake so they can punish you. At EK, you're only as good as you're last sector. YOu can have a perfect 20 year career here and you make one mistake they think "tarnished the image" of the airline, and you could find yourself unemployed or bumped from your seat.
They honestly do think we are just robots…. we get 8 hours of perfect sleep each night, we could never make a mistake even after doing what is equivalent of doing a coast to coast all night turn-around in your country, etc… you get the picture.
No extra pay for things like: De-icing, holding… which we do probably the equivalent of 2 hours give or take each month.
Remember, the "Contract" you thought you signed at EK is in reality merely "Terms and Conditions" which can be changed. But most westerners don't understand and think the "Contract" they signed with EK can't be changed. Something they just accidentally forgot to mention at the road shows lots of us attended back years ago. Silly us all thinking we had overtime at 78 hours only to wake up to an email one morning saying it had been changed unilaterally to 92 hours.
JB vs EK??? Are you serious??? Not even a decision to be made here!
Enjoy your labor protections and union protections…. neither of which to be found at EK.
K
You said, "I'd be on edge all the time".
THAT is Emirates Airline to a TEE!
It's like flying each sector with a Fed on your jumpseat just watching… waiting for you to make a mistake so they can punish you. At EK, you're only as good as you're last sector. YOu can have a perfect 20 year career here and you make one mistake they think "tarnished the image" of the airline, and you could find yourself unemployed or bumped from your seat.
They honestly do think we are just robots…. we get 8 hours of perfect sleep each night, we could never make a mistake even after doing what is equivalent of doing a coast to coast all night turn-around in your country, etc… you get the picture.
No extra pay for things like: De-icing, holding… which we do probably the equivalent of 2 hours give or take each month.
Remember, the "Contract" you thought you signed at EK is in reality merely "Terms and Conditions" which can be changed. But most westerners don't understand and think the "Contract" they signed with EK can't be changed. Something they just accidentally forgot to mention at the road shows lots of us attended back years ago. Silly us all thinking we had overtime at 78 hours only to wake up to an email one morning saying it had been changed unilaterally to 92 hours.
JB vs EK??? Are you serious??? Not even a decision to be made here!
Enjoy your labor protections and union protections…. neither of which to be found at EK.
K
Last edited by Kapitanleutnant; 25th Oct 2014 at 15:52.
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So, with all of that said, why aren't guys bailing out of that place like hotcakes? I mean, at least here, hiring is picking up. Every airline in the states is hiring now. Is it that they have too much invested in EK? Bonds?
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I'd guess most of the pilots leaving EK these days are indeed US types.
There are something like 90 different nationalities at EK on the flight deck and if you looked at most of the countries these fine aviators come from, you'll realize their home country may not be having the hiring boom that your country is currently having. That and a few other reasons are why they aren't leaving in droves…. Most of it being family issues. "The family likes it here" is what I hear mostly. The longer one stays in Dubai, the more you just learn to understand how to get along here, how to survive the antics of EK etc. I get the sense that many are content at EK due to the good quality schools , growing up in an international environment which certainly expands the minds of children, the many friends you'll make in Dubai in the close knit communities lived in.
I've always been amazed that some are able to completely adapt to everything in Dubai and EK… while others can't wait for the bond to expire and leave the day after!
K
There are something like 90 different nationalities at EK on the flight deck and if you looked at most of the countries these fine aviators come from, you'll realize their home country may not be having the hiring boom that your country is currently having. That and a few other reasons are why they aren't leaving in droves…. Most of it being family issues. "The family likes it here" is what I hear mostly. The longer one stays in Dubai, the more you just learn to understand how to get along here, how to survive the antics of EK etc. I get the sense that many are content at EK due to the good quality schools , growing up in an international environment which certainly expands the minds of children, the many friends you'll make in Dubai in the close knit communities lived in.
I've always been amazed that some are able to completely adapt to everything in Dubai and EK… while others can't wait for the bond to expire and leave the day after!
K