Increased EK attrition
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Increased EK attrition
Is there any particular contract that seems to be attracting the leavers? Or is it just random?
I've moved more on the list in the last six months than I can remember in the past.
Any info?
f.
I've moved more on the list in the last six months than I can remember in the past.
Any info?
f.
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According to the HR lady at the "Management wash-up" recently, hardly anyone is leaving, less than 1% 
Anecdotally, there seems to be an increasing departure rate to go home to the US, as well as the usual attrition, other than the seniority list, how would we know?
Anecdotally, there seems to be an increasing departure rate to go home to the US, as well as the usual attrition, other than the seniority list, how would we know?
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It's difficult to tell by the senioity list. Many leaving could be junior to you and total numbers will remain somewhat steady due to continued hiring. Smoke and mirrors.
I was actually surprised that the total number of Pilots doesn't seem to have changed much in the last year, but the airframes keep on rolling in.
Wouldn't be surprised if the "Quiet" status of recruiting and training changes somewhat!!
Wouldn't be surprised if the "Quiet" status of recruiting and training changes somewhat!!
short flights long nights
If no one is leaving EK, ans they ave 'heaps' of applications, how come every time I come onto PPrUNe, there is a banner ad inviting me to apply?
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Wiz,
Agreed, bit of a head scratcher.
According to SAFAR two weeks ago (Finance Team article)...24 new airframes FY'13 & 21 FY'14 although Classics also leaving.
I'm hearing positives about the latest on offer from CZ, perhaps enticing a few.
f.
Agreed, bit of a head scratcher.
According to SAFAR two weeks ago (Finance Team article)...24 new airframes FY'13 & 21 FY'14 although Classics also leaving.
I'm hearing positives about the latest on offer from CZ, perhaps enticing a few.
f.
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If no one is leaving EK, ans they ave 'heaps' of applications, how come every time I come onto PPRuNe, there is a banner ad inviting me to apply?
Applicants not suitable
Attrition, long term sick.
Retirement
New route structure, differing crew requirements
Attrition is good for airlines, cheaper (new Commander, New FO), morale (New Captain, New FO)
Been here nearly 3 years and moved up around 200 spots on the seniority list since then. Since I joined around the 2500 mark that works out to around 8%
Last edited by PGA; 25th Aug 2013 at 09:04.
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EK HR plans on 3% attrition
I recall being in a "washup" at the end of ground school three years ago when a senior lady from HR stated that EK had started to plan on a 3% attrition rate per annum amongst the pilot group.
Another sign of the future is that new cabin crew are not being offered profit share in their contract.
Another sign of the future is that new cabin crew are not being offered profit share in their contract.
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On May 22, 2013 an individual with specific initials was number 3382 on the list. The list total was 3492. On August 22, 2013 said individual was number 3347. The list total was 3473, including new hires between May 22 and August 22.
That is 35 resignations/retirements in exactly 3 months time. At an annualized rate that would equate to 4% attrition. Years ago management stated that they are not concerned with attrition of 2-3%/year, but when it ticks up to 4-5% they might be inclined to do something about it.
I picked the specific individual because when I started tracking this he was the last guy on the list at 3406, that was December 17, 2012. So in 9 months he has gone up 59 numbers. With only 24 resignations/retirements in the 6 months prior to May 22 management would not be concerned. The increase in attrition is only just starting. I believe it will continue apace for the rest of the year and beyond.
Typhoonpilot
That is 35 resignations/retirements in exactly 3 months time. At an annualized rate that would equate to 4% attrition. Years ago management stated that they are not concerned with attrition of 2-3%/year, but when it ticks up to 4-5% they might be inclined to do something about it.
I picked the specific individual because when I started tracking this he was the last guy on the list at 3406, that was December 17, 2012. So in 9 months he has gone up 59 numbers. With only 24 resignations/retirements in the 6 months prior to May 22 management would not be concerned. The increase in attrition is only just starting. I believe it will continue apace for the rest of the year and beyond.
Typhoonpilot
Last edited by typhoonpilot; 25th Aug 2013 at 13:15.
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Increased EK attrition
Is this actual attrition though or expected retirements?
Either way it's balanced out by the plethora of available crew on the market unfortunately.
EK is still way ahead of the pack compared to most (if not all) jobs out there at the moment. I'm not saying it's as good as it should be, just that there's nothing close to it at the moment unless you're a already a senior skipper in one of the established profit-makers (of which there are not many at this present time).
Either way it's balanced out by the plethora of available crew on the market unfortunately.
EK is still way ahead of the pack compared to most (if not all) jobs out there at the moment. I'm not saying it's as good as it should be, just that there's nothing close to it at the moment unless you're a already a senior skipper in one of the established profit-makers (of which there are not many at this present time).
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The perceived quality of the job is completely relative to your own experience and expectations. How many Indian Airbus drivers would KILL to be the lowest seniority A380 FO at EK? Probably quite a few. The EK package and flying may be better than their current situation. Right or wrong, it's all relative...
Last edited by Iver; 25th Aug 2013 at 15:34.
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It is all relative and they do have, apparently, a ton of applicants. But hey also had to reduce the requirements a few years ago and are now hiring pilots with 2500 hours!
I would hope that the Asiana accident will have raised some head in EGHQ. Not in flt ops, because I think they look only short term (bonus'), but at the upper levels. I don't think EK is at all like Asiana but over time, as it grows and if it loses its experience then it becomes an issue.
More people are certainly leaving. In the last 3 months, for the first time, I've flown with at least 4 FO's who are leaving or looking hard to leave. Not complainers--just pilots who realized this is not for them.
The younger new hires, under 30-35, have to decide whether stay and make a career or bug out now to get in the seniority line somewhere that they can spend a career. The American guys are a good example of this (though the 4 FO's I mentioned were all Europeans).
The other issue is that as people become unhappy they start to look elsewhere. At first out of simple curiosity, then with more purpose. They discuss it with the wife, she looks and starts weighing the options and slowly many of those options become a possible plan then are actioned.
This thought process is going on a lot now at EK and, on an individual level, it builds and builds until the decision is almost made for them! The get fed up enough that they leave. Not on a spur of the moment decision but based on a few years of declining conditions and the momentum that comes from 'just looking around'. The momentum builds, the wife gets on board...and bye bye.
I find many of the pilots I know who have left or are planning to are looking to get back home. EK has become intolerable for them and they look for an alternative. Pay doesn't matter anymore. They'll take a pay cut, commute etc. In most cases pay is as good or better than EK as well!
This is important---EK may pay more but these pilots are looking for a better life, better work-life balance, to go home etc etc.
Now you have the SFO accident and huge growth in Asia and the requirement for EXPERIENCED pilots is growing daily. They don't want pilots with 2500TT they want experienced captains and EK has a lot of them. A lot that are fed up.
My guess is that these airlines, especially those in China, will start making the packages more attractive.
Here's what I would do:
Most contracts in China are $20,000-$25,000/month and vary around an average of 4 weeks on, 2 weeks off.
I'd divide by 2, take a $1000 off (extra training) and offer $9,000-11,000/month with 2 weeks on 3-4 weeks off. Also offer 75% contract and 66% contracts. Possible overseas pseudo bases where your flights would start out of airports closer to your home. ETC ETC
They'd have almost every pilot over the age of 45 at EK interested. In other words--all the experience pilots, who are fed up, mostly financially stable but too young to retire and looking to go home.
If I was EK I would be more concerned about keeping experienced captains who know EK, know the routes and can do the job. Yup, the can save a bit on pay scales but I don't think it is worth it.
EK cannot afford an Asiana or worse.
I would hope that the Asiana accident will have raised some head in EGHQ. Not in flt ops, because I think they look only short term (bonus'), but at the upper levels. I don't think EK is at all like Asiana but over time, as it grows and if it loses its experience then it becomes an issue.
More people are certainly leaving. In the last 3 months, for the first time, I've flown with at least 4 FO's who are leaving or looking hard to leave. Not complainers--just pilots who realized this is not for them.
The younger new hires, under 30-35, have to decide whether stay and make a career or bug out now to get in the seniority line somewhere that they can spend a career. The American guys are a good example of this (though the 4 FO's I mentioned were all Europeans).
The other issue is that as people become unhappy they start to look elsewhere. At first out of simple curiosity, then with more purpose. They discuss it with the wife, she looks and starts weighing the options and slowly many of those options become a possible plan then are actioned.
This thought process is going on a lot now at EK and, on an individual level, it builds and builds until the decision is almost made for them! The get fed up enough that they leave. Not on a spur of the moment decision but based on a few years of declining conditions and the momentum that comes from 'just looking around'. The momentum builds, the wife gets on board...and bye bye.
I find many of the pilots I know who have left or are planning to are looking to get back home. EK has become intolerable for them and they look for an alternative. Pay doesn't matter anymore. They'll take a pay cut, commute etc. In most cases pay is as good or better than EK as well!
This is important---EK may pay more but these pilots are looking for a better life, better work-life balance, to go home etc etc.
Now you have the SFO accident and huge growth in Asia and the requirement for EXPERIENCED pilots is growing daily. They don't want pilots with 2500TT they want experienced captains and EK has a lot of them. A lot that are fed up.
My guess is that these airlines, especially those in China, will start making the packages more attractive.
Here's what I would do:
Most contracts in China are $20,000-$25,000/month and vary around an average of 4 weeks on, 2 weeks off.
I'd divide by 2, take a $1000 off (extra training) and offer $9,000-11,000/month with 2 weeks on 3-4 weeks off. Also offer 75% contract and 66% contracts. Possible overseas pseudo bases where your flights would start out of airports closer to your home. ETC ETC
They'd have almost every pilot over the age of 45 at EK interested. In other words--all the experience pilots, who are fed up, mostly financially stable but too young to retire and looking to go home.
If I was EK I would be more concerned about keeping experienced captains who know EK, know the routes and can do the job. Yup, the can save a bit on pay scales but I don't think it is worth it.
EK cannot afford an Asiana or worse.
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I have kept a copy of the Seniority list for most years going back to 2007, please don't ask me why
This time last year we had 3300 pilots, no:3299 on last years list is now no:3248
So we have only lost 51 pilots junior to him in the last 12 months.
We now have 3481 pilots, so a net increase of 181
This time last year we had 3300 pilots, no:3299 on last years list is now no:3248
So we have only lost 51 pilots junior to him in the last 12 months.
We now have 3481 pilots, so a net increase of 181
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Perhaps another relevant factor is that the serious numbers in hiring started in 2006-2007.
The first bunch are now coming to the 7 year itch (fully vested in Provident Fund) and have had enough - particularly the NWA/DAL DECs & and the Ozzie VB FOs. Not to mention some other nationalities, who have lets ets face it, never been made welcome (and English is our mother tongue! Yegads if you had an accent in 2006)
So now they and many others are free and clear to move on, and as Typhoon said - they will.
So the happiness you see in Costa HQ as the EK HR crew sip espresso (they all seem to spend a lot of time there smiling at each other) may start to wilt a little as the experience exits but the questions amongst them will never be: "Why did they leave?" But rather "what's up with them"
The answer; don't know... Your advertizing?
f.
The first bunch are now coming to the 7 year itch (fully vested in Provident Fund) and have had enough - particularly the NWA/DAL DECs & and the Ozzie VB FOs. Not to mention some other nationalities, who have lets ets face it, never been made welcome (and English is our mother tongue! Yegads if you had an accent in 2006)
So now they and many others are free and clear to move on, and as Typhoon said - they will.
So the happiness you see in Costa HQ as the EK HR crew sip espresso (they all seem to spend a lot of time there smiling at each other) may start to wilt a little as the experience exits but the questions amongst them will never be: "Why did they leave?" But rather "what's up with them"
The answer; don't know... Your advertizing?
f.
Last edited by fliion; 25th Aug 2013 at 22:47.
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The first bunch are now coming to the 7 year itch (fully vested in Provident Fund)
If you hear anyone mention they are delaying their decision to depart awaiting this development let them know 'tis a red herring. Suppose you have five years in - it is quite possible the company owes you more than you have in the provident "A" fund as the amount they pay you must be equal to or greater than your EOSB. There is a link somewhere on HR Direct which calculates that latter amount for you and you can discover whether or not it is in your favour to leave ASAP.
If you hear anyone mention they are delaying their decision to depart awaiting this development let them know 'tis a red herring. Suppose you have five years in - it is quite possible the company owes you more than you have in the provident "A" fund as the amount they pay you must be equal to or greater than your EOSB. There is a link somewhere on HR Direct which calculates that latter amount for you and you can discover whether or not it is in your favour to leave ASAP.
Last edited by Dropp the Pilot; 26th Aug 2013 at 03:44.
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Attrition is a bit higher but not a concern to HR. They plan on 60 to 70 Americans to leave next year, hardly enough to bring EK to their Knees , as they all claim. With intake numbers down they can increase easily