You want to have a go at a seat in our parliament for the next general election. Im not too sure about me wanting to be american but you couldn't do any worse than our current bunch of useless morons running the country led by the carbon witch.and yes 10 bucks a beer is outrageous for people who love the stuff
I think the point is the Dubai police chief only spoke to one side and all of your various articles thereafter represent the chiefs investigation, or lack there of. I also know its pretty rare for the US military to just go around blowing boats out of the water fo no reason. You would be really screaming if the US just went out and destroyed every country you perceive to be bad. You and I both know things are far more complicated than that. Again the US like any country will look after the interests of themselves first. Australia doesnt go out and work for thailands behalf. Humans whether in government or in general will work first for there own behaves and if it's not too inconvenient or doesnt affect there life's too much will then tackle others problems. Human nature is human nature doesn't matter where your from that's the way it is and will be.
Many cruise liners now carry 'Security warning KEEP AWAY XXX METERS' on large banners for all to see. Regardless of the language spoken and any maritime law applicable, in any stretch of water it hopefully reads 'board my vessel and you will fall overboard' Armed only with 'fire hoses' and to make potential threats think twice.
In any language, big and grey and flying any military power flag, you will be fired on if they feel threatened and you do not answer their call.
There are many ways to attract the attention of a warship, VHF or not if you need assistance, they will assist.
Warships, support vessel or Battleships tend to be easy to spot.
Right or wrong, it is a bit like chancing your luck when you hear 'Armed Police' stop running!'
Survivors - in this part of the world, would an Indian EVER admit to a mistake that cost someone their life? How about the two locals? Would they say:
a) we were goofing off and played chicken with them by trying to get right in front of them.... a'la SZR, but on the water.
b) why should we pay attention, and in any case, what's the worst thing they could do to us in our own country?
c) They never warned us. We were peaceful fishermen and they lit us up without any warning and for no reason.
How about Dubai Police Chief and the justice system in this lovely paradise...
If you're parked at the red light and a local hits you (expat) from behind, I'll give you two guesses whose fault it's automatically gonna be, and it ain't gonna be the boy's in white dish-dash.
Justice system in Dubai? How about the IKEA case? 1 month for damn near killing two expats over a damn table? Let's say the situations were reversed and it was Canadians beating up a pregnant Emirati woman and her husband? Shall we say... 20 years minimum? Firing squad? Nothing would surprise me.
This Police Chief goes and interviews the survivors and solely based on a shot-up boat, one dead guy and the local testimony, he is CONVINCED they are right.
Newspapers? Let's see... a Police Chief issues a statement and they all carry it over. They're doing their job and reporting. Did you notice a statement by the US Navy last week with illustrated positions and timeline of events along with position of the boat as this tragedy unfolded? It fit the suicide bomber profile, and I'm sure you'll agree there is plenty of precedent in the past decade of similar events, mostly on land, but also at sea - remember USS Cole?
Now... the easiest thing in the world is to sit back, just how we are now, and beat this topic to death having all the time in the world to sip on a cold one, have dinner, go to the movies, come back and decide you'll write your reply in the morning, etc. Put yourself in the shoes of the Rappahannock's skipper. What do you do? You have a boat doing 25 knots or so charging right at you... not behind you (think basic rules of the road), but straight at you and ahead of you - per their statements. The contact is not responding to anything and keeps charging at you. This is all the information you have, and now you have to make a decision... in this day and age of suicide bombers, precedent of such actions, geographical part of the world.... what decision do you make?
Before you answer that... what decision do you as a pilot (assuming you are one) make or hope to make every time? I sure hope it's the most conservative and the safest course of action for your aircraft and your crew. Well, the Rappahannock did exactly that.
Now, perhaps the crew hasn't driven on SZR to see that it's equivalent to playing Grand Theft Auto 4 except in real life.
Also, why isn't there a major outcry of the UAE government about the US Navy shooting? Why isn't the UAE government kicking out all American military out of the UAE in protest, like they did with the Canadians.
Something tells me they know what really happened, and it would be a major loss of face... so for now, it'll get settled with "apologies, expressions of regret, etc" and that's about it, and I think that'll be all there is to say about it.
Was it a tragic accident? Yes. Are there guilty parties to this? I think so... Do I think it's the US Navy? Based on experience and what I've seen and heard so far, I sincerely doubt it. Will we ever get an Emirati and an Indian to admit they also made a tragic mistake and exercised a huge lapse of judgment? I'll let you answer that one.
I only feel insecure when countries with overwhelming fire power go into other sovereign states without permission and use that power.
of course you do, but UAE invited and is very happy United States Navy is present.
You seem to be the only one that isn't happy. I don't even know why you are so upset, it doesn't personally effect you one bit. It actually benefits you. It makes your EK job stable. Especially be happy if you have children in school or own property in Dubai. Be glad Boeing and Raytheon are building missile defense systems. UAE can't/couldn't defend itself alone from Iran or Iraq back in Gulf War I.
UAE isn't even your country. You are a guest in the UAE. Only people that have any right to voice their opinion on UAE/US relations are the Emiratis.
Last edited by 8sugarsugar; 26th Jul 2012 at 08:47.
Yes ex 380, because people who go on mass killing sprees obey laws ask Norway how that gun law worked out. I imagine if everybody in the theatre was packing a weapon, there is a good chance he would have directed his craziness in another direction.. And most Americans agree that going into Iraq was b.s.. We will be paying for it for a hundred years... I just hope we learned, but skeptical of the short memories people have these days..
8sugarsugar isn't Iraq's economy booming under its new Democracy?
Yes it is the number one tourist destination in the world. Maybe some us oil companies are doing ok though.
Drive73- the stats don't back up your logic. I read in a paper yesterday that the new York mayor is calling for a change to us gun laws. The stat he quoted was in the next 4 year term 48000 people will die from gunfire in the us.
UAE isn't even your country. You are a guest in the UAE. Only people that have any right to voice their opinion on UAE/US relations are the Emiratis.
Oh really??? Where is that rule written? So no one can have an opinion. I bet the Guest indian workers who were shot up have some pretty strong opinions about it.
This post is appropriate to ME forum, as it contains information about the area we are living in - and flying over...
That replenishement boat USNS Rappahannock (T-AO-204) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (from not the real US Navy, but instead something like the British Royal Auxilairy Fleet, support vessels) could have been looking like a civilian ship in the Gulf haze (yes, 44°C, not the best visibility conditions out at sea, for those who sail) and so those poor fishermen may not have been immediately aware of what was going to happen. Lights and horns are one thing, sometimes not so efficient against some boats with a sleeping crew (I used to be in the Navy and have some personal memories) Best thing is still shooting .50 or 20 mm guns in front of the converging traffic. It usually makes huge geysers, this time noticiable even to the most idiotic crew member. No need to shoot immediately on target.. but we all know, or should know, how trigger-happy those Yanks are (in fact, both terms are becoming synonimous) Just ask the Brits in Iraq, the Canucks in Afghanistan, the French inhabitants of Calais bombed because USAF did not want to come back to England with bombs, and for those who say it's the price other nations have to pay to be "protected" just look at USN F-14 shoots down USAF RF-4C | Jetcareers 1994 Black Hawk shootdown incident - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia so they even manage to do it by themselves... Yes, every Air Force or Army does make mistakes, but it's just those ones which are becoming too common - something to do with their gun culture, their ultra-violent movies with no talking, just shooting ?? ! ??
Anyway, a good thread, as we all have various opinions...
Look at the stats for states with concealed weapons laws. Crime in states with free gun laws and large gun ownership have less violent crime. Violent crime deaths in the US are actually down. Again, your missing the point. People who do these kinds of things don't care about your gun laws, drug laws, theft laws, they kill people, which last time I checked is against the law. The great thing about stats is you can find one to back any argument. At some point logic needs to come into play. Do you think someone who is willing to kill some one is going to let a little ink on a piece of paper stop him? The politicians are going to use this as a way to manipulate and pander for votes, it is going to be at the forefront of all political rhetoric now, because it evokes high emotional reaction and is easy to use as a distraction from economic and other important issues they don't want to deal with. Humans are easy to manipulate using fear, whether it be from a 1 - 37000000 chance of being shot in a movie theatre or losing the right to bear arms. Disregarding the 1 - 3000 chance of dying in a care accident. People just don't think rationally, we are emotional and politicians know it. Look up the odds of dying in a violent crime vs driving and you will understand what I'm talking about. Rein, I notice you dig hard to find the poor performances, but leave out two very recent rescues of Iranian fishermen by those trigger happy yanks... Last time I checked there was still wars going on, so I would expect there will be more issues with friendly fire as this isn't just Americans going around shooting their guns in the air at everything that moves. War isn't perfect, could you please sight a war where allies didn't kill each other accidentally.
A fishing vessel attacked by a naval vessel from a distant country? Imagine that happening off the coast of say... any other country in the world?
The Navy was definitely 'trigger-happy' and there is no doubt they are seeking some excuse to turn this region of the world (as someone put it) ''into a big glass crater''. That is the mentality.
The USN has no right to attack any vessel approaching it in International waters unless it poses a threat to the safety of their ship. This was not the case. It's rarely the case with the USN. Remember the fabricated story about the 'Gulf of Tonkin' attack on a USN vessel? Well... it was the excuse to start the Vietnam War which by the way is still causing death, disease and harm to the vietnamese people 50 years later. The attack never happened if you are unaware of that fact.
The USA has exceeded the tolerance of most nations around the world. That worries me. They just don't comprehend that the world has changed and the 'good-will' of nations towards their antics has evaporated. Sadly they still have the most powerful military and although the US media pretends it is full of 'heroes', it is not. The US military machine is full of people unable to find employment otherwise.
(abu ghraib, the specifically designed Guantanamo Bay torture prison, secret CIA torture locations, drone attacks on innocent civilians, phosphorous weapon use that is outlawed by the UN, outlandish assertions of WMD's for nations not sympathetic to the US cause, Israeli control and influence of policy, etc.) The place is a mess on all accounts. Let's not even get into the Financial Industry which is intimately involved in the destruction of the USA.
Whether it was 'Beaker' killing people in a movie theatre, or 1 in 7 forced to be on food stamps, or an impotent manufacturing industry (other than weapons), or Health Care, or equality, or obesity, or whatever should be most important to human-beings.. it has all gone all wrong. Every six months there is another horrifying instance of someone 'losing it' and going on a killing rampage in the USA> Yet the politicians use the event to appear sympathetic and compassionate... WHILE DOING NOTHING... to address the underlying causes. I guess that is predictable when Congress is purchased by those who have the financial resources. When did common sense and morality leave the otherwise enviable attributes of Americans? Does it just boil down to ignorance and manipulation of the masses?
As far as past history, the USA only entered WW2 (the most morally justified war since 1776) more than 2 years after the rest of the world was fighting. The bloody Russians did more to win that war than the USA and by a long shot. But since that is politically incorrect in the minds of people who believe Hollywood BS, I probably shouldn't mention it.
Do I have to mention the 10+ unjustified wars that the USA has started in the past 60 years to prove my point? Funny how they never seem to win any of them in spite of the best technology and a culture designed to promote that industry.
War is coming to the ME, you can bet the farm on that one. And that should concern everyone still living there.
As an american, i agree with all aspects of your argument. Unfortunately, it is a continous trend that is spiralling downhill fast.
I just want to say that it is a failure of politicians that lead us to the ongoing death spiral of wars and mass killings. Regardless, the people that suffer are the poor and downtrodden who have no other option but to join the military in an effort to get out of their current environment.
Regardless, i am also a proud American that realizes that opportunities of life in America is very free and very enjoyable. As numerous people have told me, Americans seem to be very friendly and very open. I have lived throughout the world, and i would never want to live anywhere else. You have no idea how many cabin crew tell me why are you in Dubai if you are from the states. Exact quote from a sales person from DG Sharaff..." i wish i can go to america."
I am a little bias but i recently read an article that america came in first in a rank of places that people want to move to for a better life. We must be doing something right.