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Middle East Many expats still flying in Knoteetingham. Regional issues can be discussed here.


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Old 1st Nov 2011, 14:40   #1 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: hk
Posts: 8
Has your UK CAA I/R lapsed by more than 7/6/3 years?

Mine has, which was not a problem as I have continuously maintained my Instrument Rating on an ICAO HK ATPL for the last 10 years.

That was until April 2011 when the CAA suddenly and without warning decided that ICAO I/R's didn't count anymore and that I would be required to re-sit the theoretical examinations in order to revalidate my UK I/R.

I am in the early stages of taking the CAA to task on this through the BALPA lawyers, I know that I'm not the only one affected by this sudden policy change and both myself and BALPA would like to know how many others are out there.

Please PM me or post if you are affected by this, want to share information or if by some miracle you have managed to make any progress on this issue with the lunatics at the CAA.

Cheers
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Old 1st Nov 2011, 17:52   #2 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Too far from the equator
Posts: 705
I think most of us have been aware for quite a while not to allow 5 years to pass without a UK LPC ( I/R -whatever ) , how come this is such news to you ? I do sympathise by the way , I think its all a by-product of the many cowboys out there with false docs.
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Old 1st Nov 2011, 18:29   #3 (permalink)
EYZ
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: AUS
Posts: 132
I've been out of the UK 8 years and didn't know about this. I'm not sure most of us are doing a UK check every 5 years either.
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Old 1st Nov 2011, 18:45   #4 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: In Black money Country
Posts: 446
I don't think it's as well known as you make out, few people I have mentioned it to had no idea. I only found out by pure chance...
Neither the CAA or BALPA for those who still subscribe have made it clear to the expats who hold a current UK license, which considering how much you pay to keep your license valid and up to date is disgraceful.
Good luck with your case, I am sure that they are many in the same boat.
Bokkie
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Old 1st Nov 2011, 19:56   #5 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Too far from the equator
Posts: 705
By chance I was in Belgrano last week for another issue , and not sure the rather gorgeous popsie who dealt with my query was state-of-the-art when it came to regs , had to go off and bring back the 'bible' to make her point even though I thought there was more than one way to skin a cat with regard to the wording .
I think they all believe that we spend our spare time ( if we have any ) keeping up to date with their endless amendments.
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Old 2nd Nov 2011, 02:21   #6 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Sep 1998
Location: Dubai ,U.A.E.
Posts: 34
This is a change, the rules were as long as you operate on an ICAO license then all privileges of the UK license are honored and the first time you renew the UK one everything is reinstated. I know a one off approval was issued to some TREs to conduct UK tests but that has stopped because the CAA said that it was nor necessary. Now there are no current/approved CAA TREs in EK.
The only way to renew is to go to the UK and Find a Sim. and a CAA TRE oh and about 1500.
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Old 2nd Nov 2011, 04:43   #7 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: hk
Posts: 8
For those who are in this position but are unfamiliar with the history, the requirement to re-sit the previously passed theoretical exams if your IR has lapsed by more than 7 years has existed for at least the last 10 years.

LASORS the UK CAA publication detailing licencing requirements has stated in successive updated versions during this time that if you hold an IR on another ICAO licence it fulfills the criteria of having an IR inside 7 years thereby eliminating the requirement *to re-sit the theoretical examinations.

In April 2011 LASORS 2010 was published and without prior warning the CAA removed this condition effectively rendering many license holders unqualified overnight.

There is no other outside legislation driving this decision, JAR-FCL has not changed since 2005, EASA does not come into force until April 2012 at the earliest, this is purely an arbitrary UK CAA action.

Other JAA member states such as France and Germany accept IR's from ICAO licences so the CAA cannot claim to be merely falling into line with other countries.

Aside from the fact that as a responsible regulator the CAA are obliged to give people advance warning of major policy changes such as this, sitting theoretical examinations for a 2nd time serves no practical purpose and offends common sense.

Discrimination also becomes a factor because the CAA cannot point to any differences in standards that would legitimize their sudden refusal to grant an IR without sitting exams having continuously maintained an IR on another ICAO licence.

Neither can they reconcile the contradiction that I'm qualified to fly a HK registered aircraft in UK airspace but not a UK registered aircraft. Remember I'm objecting to re-sitting theoretical exams that had questionable vocational value as a student, not carrying out a CAA IR and skills test.

Having failed to appeal to the CAA's better *judgement I am now pursuing this matter through legal avenues.
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Old 2nd Nov 2011, 05:18   #8 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Posts: 30
I was on the phone to them yesterday as my licence expired last month. I put the A330 on my UK/JAA licence a few years ago whilst at EK. They advised I could renew my licence on the back of a 330 PPC conducted in EK within the last 5 years.

As I now fly the 380, I also asked if that could be put on licence. The answer was yes as long as I had 500 hours P1 time on type.
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Old 2nd Nov 2011, 16:42   #9 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Dubai
Posts: 546
interesting SB, I am in much the same position as you, so would be interested to see how you get on
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Old 2nd Nov 2011, 18:42   #10 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Too far from the equator
Posts: 705
Sandblaster , I think you might find that you have always been able to put a current type overseas on yr UK Licence , as long as it is within 5 years etc , it will also be the old Part 2 type rating , and , of course , you cannot exercise the privileges of , say , an A380 TR in UK until you have had an LPC conducted by a UK TRE - not much changed really.
Still worth doing a UK LPC every 5 years anyway , 1500 well spent I say.
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Old 2nd Nov 2011, 19:13   #11 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Dubai - sand land.
Age: 45
Posts: 2,086
Well; I'm buggered.... Nine and a half years since my last LPC/OPC and ten years since my UK medical Guess I'm stuck in the 'pit

No way I'm doing those theory exams again at Belgrano - biggest waste of time and money in my career!!!!!!
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Old 2nd Nov 2011, 19:46   #12 (permalink)
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Rarely at one place
Posts: 36
Quote:
No way I'm doing those theory exams
Amen to that. Worst days of my life. I really have no idea what is wrong with the CAA.

I guess it has all to do with EASA coming into effect next year
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Old 2nd Nov 2011, 19:59   #13 (permalink)
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Earth
Posts: 574
Christ, just read LASORS 2010 and it looks like we're screwed..........not happy.

SANDBLASTER, are you implying that if you have done an EK PPC/IR test within the last 5 years i.e. since 2006 then the UK CAA will allow you to do a UK PPC/IR test with a UK examiner without having to do the ground exams?

Last edited by Fart Master; 2nd Nov 2011 at 20:12.
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Old 2nd Nov 2011, 21:07   #14 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Samsonite Avenue
Posts: 1,409
Quote:
I guess it has all to do with EASA coming into effect next year.
One would hope that EASA makes licensing policy easier. One change that I do approve of is EASA licenses will have lifetime validity. Thereby doing away with with the CAA cash cow procedure of having to renew your licence every 5 years.
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Old 3rd Nov 2011, 10:38   #15 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Posts: 30
My last 330 PPC was 18 months ago conducted by an EK TRE. I paid to get the 330 put on part 1 of my UK/JAA licence in April 06.My licence ran out in September. When I was on the phone to the Belgrano, they pulled up my records on their computer and indicated it was no problem to renew my licence using my 330 rating.

When enquiring about the 380 rating the inference was that I only needed 500 hours P1 time to include it. I'm not sure that's entirely correct and think I would need a UK TRE to conduct a skills test on the 380 as I did for the 330. That could prove to be more of a challenge!!

As things stand I will go to LGW in the next couple of months and try and renew with the 330 rating.

Will report back!
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Old 3rd Nov 2011, 12:11   #16 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Dubai
Posts: 546
Ta much, my UK ATPL expired about 3 months ago, it had the 330 on it from the 1179 I did here in the EK sim. Like you I have been on the 380 for a couple of years, so would be nice to get it renewed with the 330 and eventually the 380
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Old 9th Nov 2011, 04:46   #17 (permalink)
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Earth
Posts: 574
A couple of Q's;

Does anyone have a copy of LASORS 2008?

Sandblaster; while the CAA says that you can put the A330 on Part 1 of your UK licence, did that include an IR as well, or is it just the type itself that you've put onto it?
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Old 9th Nov 2011, 06:47   #18 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 83
Hey all,

UK licence lapsed about 2 years ago, and finally got around to doing something about it a year later, so it had expired for a year.

Was told I needed a current type on licence to renew, difficult as in Dubai for quite a while, but able to put B777 on UK/JAA licence with 500 hrs P1 (log book verified by EK), and a LPC with a JAA licenced TRE. There is one at EK, although not UK licenced, which didn't matter. The other proviso was a current Class 1 medical. If that had expired for more than 5 years, an initial was needed back in Gatwick.

That was it, pay the licence fee, and a brand new JAA licence delivered to DXB about a month later.

Good luck co-ordinating sim time and TRE, we just booked it on our own - about USD500 per hour each at EK.
break dancer is offline   Reply
Old 9th Nov 2011, 13:37   #19 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Sand-Land
Posts: 50
There are 2 requirements to renew a UK licence:

1)Current medical
2)Current type OR class. (Type: B777/A340 etc OR Class: Single Engine Piston Land)

I went back to Blighty, did a couple of hours in a puddle jumper, followed by a skills test, and Roberts your Fathers Brother, a shiny new JAR licence.

Bit nervous about the UK IR being lapsed for over 7 years though.
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Old 9th Nov 2011, 17:21   #20 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Middle East
Age: 60
Posts: 11
Angry

Point of this thread is that if your UK licence (JAA or UK) has expired by MORE THAN 7 YEARS you now have to resit the IR theory exam to renew it.
Those of you that have renewed before the seven year point could perhaps refrain from telling us how easy it was to renew before reaching the magic seven year point!
How long before we have to resit plotting, air law or perf A?
This is a ridiculous ruling and the thin end of an enormous wedge.
It needs to be removed at the earliest opportunity.
Citizens of some other nations need only to be able to spell B777 or B747 to have it included on their licence (EG South Africa).
Why on earth should pilots flying full time for ICAO operators, many operating to JAA rules even if not JAA members, have this crazy rule applied.
Can we please avoid self congratulatory thread creep and concentrate on the problem here?
It would seem that after 40 years of continuous aviation, including 6 monthly renewals to international standards, my UK licence is quietly going up in smoke!
WTF is going on?
Good luck to anyone who is working towards a review of this ruling.
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